Good point, like a savings account that never loses its value. I see how this particular country revolves around gold, but Zimbabwe and the United States are much different countries... in fact even in the video around 51 seconds there's a guy who mentions something about using a pick and shovel to find some gold, and the very next guy who is interviewed says he went digging for gold in the mountains. The problem here is that the country is already dictated by the exchange of gold - life is hard, but their infrastructure is stable at least. When the foundations of the U.S. collapse, we won't just lean back on gold as a currency because of how scarce it is. Do you really think we can stabilize a population of 310 million people when the majority of gold is probably owned by the people who won't feel the effects of the recession? Honestly man, people are sick and tired of being lied to. Gold is shiny, but the value we attribute to it is only in our imaginations. It'd be better used to make solar panels for these people so they could harvest electricity from the sun and power their basic necessities or something, I'm sure someone much smarter than I could come up with some grand idea. I'm sure it is, but there are also pieces of land that are worth much more than 50 ounces of gold ... not in the middle of buttfuck Nebraska though The US is something like 3.8 million square miles, so it's not unreasonable to think that a prime piece of land might hold its value very well, even better than gold. The point is to make sure everyone is poor. There's enough people out there who don't have gold or money, and they will definitely do some drastic, desperate shit in order to survive. What? Maybe I'm lost, but with the example you listed down there, how is it any different? You just plugged a different number in... I put $150 and you put half of your savings account. Yes, if you think gold has more leverage than bullets, it is a fantastic investment. I'm not trying to say gold is worthless and nobody should invest - I'm saying it's not going to be nearly as stabilizing as we think it is. A lot of people are going to be extremely desperate for anything they can do to survive, the U.S. is such a clusterfuck of angry, pissed off people that when shit hits the fan, we're not going to be able to make enough sense of reality to be able to determine what's fair for what. What if 0.00001g for a loaf of bread is more fair than 0.1g? How much did you just lose overall on your savings account by paying for severely hyper-inflated bread? You really don't think that people are going to try to exploit each other, just like they did with money? Money is paper that has numbers printed on it, yet all of society revolves around these pieces of paper (most of which are circulated electronically now) and we pretend we can build a foundation on it. Nothing wrong with pretending - money can do some great things for us, but the problem is the businessmen who own the company that prints money, are exploiting people through a system of monetary enslavement. The problem is not money, it's how we play the money game. The same thing is true of gold. There's nothing wrong with gold, but it's how people will use it in their favor that will cause problems, much in the same way that money caused problems for us. I don't think gold is going to magically break the cultural conditioning of individualistic, egotistical greed, competition, domination, monopolization, and so many other things that have been instilled in so many generations of Americans for so fucking long. Gold isn't that magic answer man. If the dollar collapses the gun will be worth more than gold. You can't rob people with gold nuggets, but you sure can with bullets - and at that point, you don't have to give anything in exchange for the goods you received. Again, in this country in particular, do you really expect people to remain civilized during a total financial meltdown and a collapsing of the monetary system? What do you think will happen when people wake up and realize the system is fraudulent? A lot of people are incredibly pissed off already, and shit hasn't even hit rock-bottom. Furthermore, there's riots around the world because of the global recession. Why isn't gold helping those people out? Or are they not as smart as us Americans, who invest so much in the future?
Huh? Wouldn't that just make it all the more valuable? If shit really hits the fan (you're the one who built up a scenario of nuclear war...) a lot of those 310 million people aren't going to be making it through the next winter... Things are valued subjectively and this holds true for gold. Who are you to say that gold won't be worth anything when the dollar collapses? How can you make a value-judgment for everyone else? I think the history of gold as a means of exchange speaks for itself. So, gold won't be used as currency (because of how scarce it is, right?), but you admit it's useful in producing useful shit. I'm sorry, your line of reasoning seems to contradict itself. I highly doubt real estate in the US is going to hold its value better than gold at this point. Obviously there will be exceptions to any rule one tries to make, but in general, gold is just a much safer buy than a piece of property if your goal is to maintain the value of that asset. Land is useful in itself as in you can build a house on it, use it for shelter, plant crops, etc. Gold is used as a store of value. You can't plant crops on your gold or use your gold for shelter. You'd have to exchange your gold for crops/shelter. Are we back to the nuclear holocaust scenario where everyone's livelihoods are destroyed? I think a gun, some ammo, and the ability to handle that weapon would go a long ways in protecting your property from poor people if you're afraid of theft by those who are less fortunate than you. I'm not even sure how this relates to the topic which I thought was using gold to store the value of your current assets. Because if someone only has $300 to spend, clearly they don't have the means to spend that money on gold. If someone has $10,000 to spend, clearly they're able to use some of that money to invest in something other than the immediate necessities. They're investing for the future (read: time preferences). Poor people don't have the luxury to look years into the future and invest based on that. Richer people clearly have that luxury. If you're only worried about next couple weeks, then yes, by all means, spend your money on food. If you're worried about having some spending money down the road like perhaps someone who's slightly older than you and not able to really work for a living anymore, then they might care a little more about investing for the future. Bullets can only get you so far... You just going to start shooting at people to get what you want? That's going to get you far in terms of survival. Yea, trading with people and fulfulling the double coincidence of wants certainly won't get you far. Better to shoot at people to get what I want. What the fuck was I thinking... Stabilizing? Gold isn't a stablizier, its a store of value... If you don't think the value of gold is stable, then I would point you towards a history book. You understand what a price system is, right? Yes, the price system will be shattered temporarily, but people trade, barter and haggle and new prices are formulated. You know what a voluntary exchange is right? That is how people determine what is fair. Yes, people will shoot at each other when they get desperate. Maybe you can pay off some of those people with the gold you have so they don't shoot at you. I think to the person who's desperate enough to spend .1g on a loaf of bread thinks the bread is worth the .1g, wouldn't you? You don't lose savings when you spend them on shit you desperately need. A voluntary exchange should be mutually beneficial; otherwise, why the fuck would either party participate in the exchange? What? You know what fiat currency is, right? How are they going to conjure gold out of thin air? They going to start counterfeiting gold? Did anyone say it was? Who/what are you arguing against? To you it might be. To me or someone else, the gold might be worth more, especially if I (or they) already have a gun. You can pay someone in gold nuggets to go rob someone. I don't expect people to remain civilized ever. This really isn't relevant to the discussion of gold as a store of value. You've turned the argument into X is better than gold, which is just ridiculous if you accept the subjective theory of value. Only you can decide what you want. You clearly aren't interested in gold, so why are you even in the thread? To tell people gold is a bad investment? You want to make a wager about the price of gold in a year? Many people already do realize this. Many more people realize this now than did 10 years ago. What has changed in the past 10 years? What riots are you referring to? The ones where the government fucked up and the idiots who supported them got pissed? Yea, I have little sympathy for them. They didn't use their brains and now they're lashing out with their emotions like ignorant children because thier government fucked them over. Nothing you've said has addressed why gold will be worth less in the future except for the made-up nuclear holocaust scenario and even then, you still have no way of predicting the value of gold in that market. You've desperately tried to justify your predictions of future markets but the fact is that neither you or I can hope to predict the future value of gold with any verifiable accuracy. I can only point you to history where gold has been used as a means of exchange before there was paper currency and in other scenarios where the local currency collapses and people revert back to gold or other precious metals to exchange.
As you said, value is subjective. If you think scarce things are valuable, I would implore you to hang onto your happiness - you will be richer than any amount of gold could make you. What do you think they will do, crawl up under a bridge and die because they don't have enough gold to buy food or water? People aren't going to let an imaginary game of trade-me-this-for-that stop them from getting what they need. If trading doesn't work, stealing always does, and desperation always takes us to the extreme end of the spectrum first. Trading is the middle ground. If it's true that gold is valued subjectively and I'm not one to say that gold won't be worth anything when the dollar collapses, can I ask you who you are to say it will be worth more? As you said earlier, the value is subjective, so what are you valuing? Also, the history of gold as a means of exchange does speak for itself - but you can't separate the variables in the time period, or the context of the society in which gold is being traded around, from its history. Can you give me example, in history, of when 7 billion people spread throughout the world had to experience a global recession down to the point of economic instability, financial meltdown, and perhaps the brink of world-wide revolution? That, coupled with modern technology and weaponry, makes the present situation much, MUCH different from anything that has ever occurred in history. Using gold for currency and using gold for its electrical conductivity are two very different things as far as I understand them. How am I contradicting myself again? I may be missing the subtle implications here... Can you live on gold? Literally. Like you said, it's all subjective. I find land to be more valuable than gold because a prime piece of land will have everything you need to survive. I'd rather cut out the middle step of having to own the gold in order to exchange it for goods... but that's just me. No, this isn't the nuclear holocaust scenario, but like you wrote, the poor can't invest in gold. If they have no gold and they have no money, are they just going to be like "oh okay well now since I can't trade, I think I'll just curl up and die." I don't get it man, I'm lost. The economic model is not the extent of the interaction human beings have with each other in society, people don't just magically disappear when they run out of money. I never said anything about anyone having only $300 to spend on gold, I'm not sure where that came from. Life is full of choices and expectations man, you can plan for the future all you want, but your plan isn't going to go according to your desires. If the financial system of the US melts down, theft and robbery is going through the roof. Who's going to be a police officer when money is absolutely worthless and not used? How are you going to pay someone? Who's going to put their life on the line to save another when there's no incentive? I'm sure these individuals are much more focused about caring for themselves and their families before other people. You need rules and regulations in order to trade, and also someone to enforce those, otherwise anything is fair game. And I'm saying this with specific reference to post-economic meltdown of the modern world, wherein fiat currency is thrown out the window and replaced with shiny metals that we cannot eat, drink, keep warm with during the winter, or do much except look at it and trade it for the things that are free in this world anyways. Plants will continue to grow whether we pay the sun or not. Clouds will continue to dump rain regardless of we pay the earth. Fish will continue to breed in the sea regardless of if we donate money to Poseidon. Investing directly in what prolongs your life is much better than investing in what you can trade for that which prolongs your life. I'm not going to start shooting at people to survive, but does that mean nobody else will? We live in a society where people are severely fucked up in the head, and you know this to be true for many reasons. You ever heard the pendulum analogy? We're at one extreme end right now, and we're going to swing back to the opposite end long before we stabilize ourselves enough to even think about trading for gol.d What if my wants are to keep my gold and have your goods at the same time? Why don't you acquiesce to my wants? And don't worry, the double coincidence of wants is that you will get to keep your life, just not your gold. Are you going to call the police and have this man arrested, then proceed to file a lawsuit against him and make sure he's ordered by a court of law to not go within 1,000 feet of you lest he gets arrested and charged? Gold is a store of subjective value that has remained stable throughout history? I'm curious, point me to this history book that objectifies and quantifies the value of gold throughout history without relation to how people perceived its value. I'm sure that, during those times, the richest people in the world were those who didn't need to even look at gold in order to survive. Also, gold is a stabilizer if it's meant to be used as currency. The point of currency is for ... what now? The title of the thread is "why aren't you buying gold?" which looks like a question to me, so I thought I'd answer that question and tell people why I'm not buying gold. Yeah, sure, let's make a wager about the price of gold in a year. I bet you two pairs of mittens, two pairs of wool socks, and a genuine leather wallet (for carrying your gold of course) that nobody will give a shit how much it costs, because it's free to steal. The pendulum always swings to the extremes before it hits the middle. People in society are currently being robbed, and as soon as this fraudulent system finishes its task, people are going to swing the other way to start stealing from others. If you think exchange is possible without a shit ton of violence, I would advise you to open your eyes to news from around the world. Look, this was just four days ago: FT.com / Europe - Minister blames Rome riots on These people still have money, food, water, shelter, clothing, etc. Do you think the level of violence will decrease as the world sinks further and further into this black hole? Replacing one form of currency with another doesn't solve anything. It's the same shit, just a different color. This fixes nothing, and postpones everything.
Scarce things are not inherently valuable. You should brush up on your understanding of subjective theory of value if you think that's what it entails. No, I think many of them will die due to the effects/results of nuclear weapons being deployed on a large scale (read: nuclear war). Right, and I'm not going to let anyone take my shit if I can help it. Wrong. I actually have some experience in the art of stealing, so I can tell you from experience: it doesn't always work. I don't understand the question. Worth more than what? Nothing? Do I think an ounce of gold will be able to buy me food for a day? I sure hope so; otherwise, a lot of people are going to be starving in the US if food is so scarce that an ounce of gold can't feed me for a day. Nope. As far as I know there have never been 6.8 billions humans living on Earth. Different enough where I don't trust your prediction on the value of gold after this meltdown occurs. Using hemp for currency and using hemp for clothing are two very different things and yet they both are a legitimate use and will both probably be used for that purpose at some point in the future. You claimed it was useful but couldn't be used as means of exchange. I think that's sort of contradictory in the scenario you envisioned. Why would someone hoard the gold they have (presumably some people are going to have gold...) when they could trade it to someone who could use it in exchange for something they want? You could if there was someone willing to accept gold for sustenance and whatever else you needed. Gold would simply be a material used in bartering scenarios. It would not be something you could live off of. Just like you can't literally live off the federal reserve notes. Only if you're able to sustain yourself on it. Some people may not be able to use a prime piece of land to be self-sufficient. You're basically talking about yourself and what's valuable to you. You have no way of making value judgments for people you don't know which is exactly what you did when you said "the value we attribute to it is only in our imaginations". You're a healthy 21-year-old, no? What about a 75-year-old man/woman? Should they just hope that other people don't beat the shit out of them (or worse), take everything they own and leave them to die? Or should they use the assets they accumulated over their life to protect themselves and acquire food + shelter (and whatever else they need) through voluntary exchange? Not everyone is able to just morph into this self-sufficient human in one fell swoop. Some people need some help surviving and EXCHANGING with other people is one way to help people survive. Did I say that's what would happen? Did I say they would? No shit... Did I ever claim otherwise? There will still be exchanges going on even after a financial meltdown. Just because federal reserve notes will be rendered worthless does not mean all money is absolutely worthless and won't be used. Money =/= Federal Reserve Notes Bartering (read: double coincidence of wants) This is true right now. Yes, people can enforce the rules and regulations. Food is free? Mind explaining how food and shelter and clothing are free? Should I just go and steal them next time I'm out? Oh, guys! It's ok! My friend told me these things were free, so I don't have to pay for them. That's not going to sustain everyone. Some people may think it's worth it to exchange things in order to better their lives. Shocker, I know. That doesn't mean voluntary exchange is going to fly out the window... No, I'm not aware of the pendulum analogy. Then, I will bid you good luck. Because I don't care about you. Or I'll just kill you. No, I'll just kill him. Stable is relative... To exchange. it's not a "stabilizer". It can be used to help formulate prices, but it's not going to stabilize the entire economy in one fell swoop. I'm not buying gold either. You for real? I could always use some more wool socks. You're on. Nope. At this point, it's nice that you'd give me this advice, but I really don't think I'm going to employ it. I'm going to use whatever means I can to get what I need to survive. If precious metals helps with that, so be it. If it proves worthless, so be it. Time will tell who was right, so there's no use in continuing this discussion until either 12/21/2011 or until nobody gives a shit about how much gold costs (whichever comes first obviously).
Everyone knows that paper invoices are not sustainable and they fall when they were distributed. However, the silver-silver and gold coin is ever lasting. The silver and gold have a life of movement and they do not lose their value after being released for any length of time.
Because it was my understanding that gold serves as collateral in case something bad happens. That's what they take before your house and car basically. I can't afford collateral like that.
Yeah, I can't afford gold or silver. I can only afford lead, and i suppose that's useful, but not quite as useful as gold. People will always want gold for trading. Ammunition will be pretty popular I'd expect too, especially if we enter a prolonged dark age of sorts. The longer the darkness goes on, the more valuable things like well manufactured ammunition, weapons, batteries, etc. will become. I'd bet weed would be super valuable too, as a powerful, effective medicine and pain killer.
I'm glad I listened to the "nutjobs" and bought silver and gold when the crash hit. Silver has more then doubled in 2 years and gold has gained about 20%. That said, I don't know how enthusiastic I would be about buying in at these prices.
I don't understand why anyone would buy gold right now, it's really a very bad idea. The most basic rule of investing is BUY LOW and SELL HIGH. This is a graph of gold prices since 1915 adjusted for inflation. Does the current price look "low" to anyone? PS - That huge spike, that's when unemployment hit 10% in the early 1980s. Back then, people were also convinced that the US was on its way out and it was time to buy gold. If you followed that advice you had lost 75% of your investment by 1993. If you want to believe that the dollar is on its way out, that's your prerogative, I'm not going to change your mind. But that doesn't mean your only option is gold. German Bunds are denominated in Euros and pay a very decent return. If you think the dollar will soon be worthless, then they're a fairly safe investment and have a more-or-less guaranteed return. You could also invest in stock-market index funds. If you look at the performance of the S&P 500 since 1926, you will see that even adjusted for inflation, you could would never lose anything like 75% of your investment. If it's an index fund, then its value will always increase to keep pace with inflation (unlike individual companies which may be unable to keep pace) so you insulate yourself against inflation while protecting your investment much better than gold will. Alternatively, you could invest in oil futures. Unlike gold, the world's oil consumption is expected to continue to increase in the near future, driving up the price. Like an index fund, the price of oil will increase with inflation, so you are again protected against a sudden drop in the value of the dollar. Please think hard about what it means to invest before buying gold. There are MANY alternatives, all of which are far more likely to provide you with a return while simultaneously protecting you against a sudden drop in the value of the dollar.
Gold is expensive right now. Buy high sell low is not a recipe for success. I didn't watch the video.
Gold isn't going to be decreasing in value relative to the dollar in the near future (let's say next 12 months). I do think that there are some better investments than gold right now (unless you're like super-rich and are in for the long-haul), but gold is generally a pretty good store of value especially when you compare it to fiat currencies.
Dude, did you SEE the above chart? If gold was a good "store of value" it wouldn't have lost 75% of its value between 1980 and the late 1990s. Where are you getting your data from?