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Clone Seeds ?


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#1
The Green Bastard

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Ok, we've been having a discussion about this on another thread all day and we seemed to have hit a wall.

If a plant is either stressed to push out some nanners, or through rodelization, and pollinates itself. will the the seeds be clones of the mother or will they exhibit different phenotypes?

Please provide a link to your reference. :smoke:

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#2
Russy

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I cant provide a link, But I can provide pictures....

I had 5 Pineapple Chunk seeds that Im growing out that came from a self hermied PC plant , It hermied from flowering for to long , breeder recommends 55 days, I let her go 72 days, she got a few seeds on the lower buds, and thats what i grew out, 5 seeds , clearly 3 phenos.
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#3
The Green Bastard

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I cant provide a link, But I can provide pictures....

I had 5 Pineapple Chunk seeds that Im growing out that came from a self hermied PC plant , It hermied from flowering for to long , breeder recommends 55 days, I let her go 72 days, she got a few seeds on the lower buds, and thats what i grew out, 5 seeds , clearly 3 phenos.


I would like to see those pictures. :smoke:

#4
caesar5000

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i would love to be wrong on this do to the fact that i have a tun of clone only strains tacking up #'s in my op and this would be a great help

#5
Russy

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Ok,


Pheno 1 : characteristics : Taller (7 feet) , trichrome production heavy , Large Christmas tree shape , tight buds

Pheno 2 : characteristics : Shorter (5 feet) , trichrome production heavy , Shorter tighter branches and Buds .

Pheno 3 : characteristics : Shorter (5 feet) , no trichromes , large christmas tree shape , sparse bud structure .


I did 5 of these seeds, short veg time , and as a test, I didnt top them , and left them in 3 gallon containers in a sort of mini Pineapple Chunk sea of green , It got crazy , I had to snap/train the taller of the phenos when they got to over 6 feet tall , so its hard to see the differences in the pics, I will try to point them out.


I see 3 of pheno 1 , and 1 each of the other phenos.




Buds


Pheno 1 (heavy trichromes, even on stems)

Posted Image

Posted Image



Pheno 2 Buds (no trichromes , sparse)


Posted Image









Tops



Pheno 1 (tighter buds)


Posted Image




Pheno 2 (sparse top)


Posted Image









Side shot (hard to tell the different X-mas tree type phenos)



Posted Image










Overall (3 pheno 1's on left (tall trichrome pheno)) ( and 1 each of the other phenos on right)






Posted Image











:)

#6
The Green Bastard

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I appreciate the pics but to me they look identical. who's to say that the individual conditions and positioning of those plants didnt make the difference? You can still tell that they are all the same strain.

I'm not convinced. I would love for someone to point out a reference in either direction concerning this issue.

#7
Russy

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I rotate the tray every 2 days , all of them have gotten the same water and soil . No other variables I can think of..


Like I said, its hard to tell by the pics, But in person , its obvious,


3 are over 7 feet tall, 2 are about 5 feet, thats one clear difference. And also the trichrome production on 4 of them , pretty substantial difference...

There is also slight variations on leaf structure




I could dig for pictures of 6 maui waui's I grew out a couple years ago, they were hermied seeds from a stressed female, they also grew out at least 2 distinct phenos..



And Of course you can tell they are the same strain , we are talking about phenos are we not? phenos dont look like different strains.... (at least from my experience )

Edited by Russy, 04 December 2010 - 12:24 AM.


#8
The Green Bastard

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I rotate the tray every 2 days , all of them have gotten the same water and soil . No other variables I can think of..

Like I said, its hard to tell by the pics, But in person , its obvious,

3 are over 7 feet tall, 2 are about 5 feet, thats one clear difference. And also the trichrome production on 4 of them , pretty substantial difference...

There is also slight variations on leaf structure

I could dig for pictures of 6 maui waui's I grew out a couple years ago, they were hermied seeds from a stressed female, they also grew out at least 2 distinct phenos..

And Of course you can tell they are the same strain , we are talking about phenos are we not? phenos dont look like different strains.... (at least from my experience )


OK, i will counter with this... I have bubble cheese clones that all came from the same mother, although the individual growth of each plant is slightly different even though they have all had the same light, nutes, soil, etc. I know they are all identical clones but depending on which side of the plant is facing the light today can determine growth for the rest of the cycle. subtle, i know, but for arguments sake i could argue that all my bubble cheese clones are different phenotypes.
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#9
Russy

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OK, i will counter with this... I have bubble cheese clones that all came from the same mother, although the individual growth of each plant is slightly different even though they have all had the same light, nutes, soil, etc. I know they are all identical clones but depending on which side of the plant is facing the light today can determine growth for the rest of the cycle. subtle, i know, but for arguments sake i could argue that all my bubble cheese clones are different phenotypes.



I can agree , 5 seeds is not a very big sample size either , I could have had 2 underdeveloped seeds , or some other factor on the one that has no trichromes ... But still , you would think they would be very close to identical , if they were "clone seeds" but I suppose there could be any number of variable with such a small sample size... we need someone to grow out a sea of 100 hermie seeds to see if there is really a pheno difference or not ....

#10
Loki7

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#11
Russy

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It's simple science. You only have one set of genes in this gene pool, so you will get a sub-set of that gene pool. For genes that the parent might carry both the dominant and recessive forms, they would follow normal Mendelian ratios. For genes that are homogenic, you get that allele and that's it... So, if it has two dominant X genes, all offspring will have two dominant X genes.

-Loki




Can you put that in Laymans terms?

#12
The Green Bastard

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It's simple science. You only have one set of genes in this gene pool, so you will get a sub-set of that gene pool. For genes that the parent might carry both the dominant and recessive forms, they would follow normal Mendelian ratios. For genes that are homogenic, you get that allele and that's it... So, if it has two dominant X genes, all offspring will have two dominant X genes.

-Loki


any reference on this? This was our second theory but without reference that we all trust, its "he said, she said".

ceasar found this but its the only reference to clone seeds we could find other than general talk on forums...

now i can admit when I'm wrong and after 10 hours of research i have found 1 reference to CLONE SEEDS in "the cannabis grow bible" page 422 were vic high clams !! if you can find a XX female plant that will not hermy under any environmental conditions or any stress related issues
gibberellic acid can be applied to XX female and guarantee fem seeds with 100% no males or hermy's and quote "he claims that the plants are exact genetic clones of one another , complete sisters "

i would love to read up more on this i have a large cannabis library just give me the book name and page #



#13
caesar5000

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i got you covered on phenom these are to 2 definite phenoms

1 and 2 sativa phenom

3 indica phenom
WR phenom 007.JPG

WR phenom 010.JPG

WR phenom 020.JPG

#14
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#15
caesar5000

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these are from the first 30 seeds i have in flower im pretty shore i have the in between phenom as well and i have the same 3 phenoms in the 30 i have in veg right now and they were all fem seed

#16
Russy

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Umm... Ok... let's say the parent plant has genes that look like AaBBCcDdEEff...

The capital letters are dominant genes, which means that if a plant has XX or Xx, the gene is expressed. The lower letters are recessive genes... So if a plant has xx, the gene is not expressed.

Now, when pollen is made, the genes can come from the first or second letter, so if you have Xx or xX, there's a 50% change of getting either. If you have xx or XX, then you get either an x (for xx) or an X (for XX).

So when pollen is made from the above genes, you might get ABCDEf, aBCdEf or aBcdEf, etc... So when the seed is formed you get a ratio of genes being expressed, known as the Mendelian ratio. But since this is a limit gene pool, meaning the genes of each parent is the same plant, you can factor out some things, like the xx's and XX's. In a wide gene pool, there's be equal chance for either x or X, but not with one parent. There will either be Xx, xX or XX, xx... The XX and xx genes will stay the same in the offspring. The Xx and xX genes can end up being XX, Xx, xX or xx in the offspring...

-Loki




So earlier before we started this thread I said something like , the seeds from a self pollinated would still have dominant and recessive genes , therefore you can still have different phenos , are you backing this up, or shooting it down, I still cant tell...

I knew about this stuff in high school, but its been a long time...

#17
The Green Bastard

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Umm... Ok... let's say the parent plant has genes that look like AaBBCcDdEEff...

The capital letters are dominant genes, which means that if a plant has XX or Xx, the gene is expressed. The lower letters are recessive genes... So if a plant has xx, the gene is not expressed.

Now, when pollen is made, the genes can come from the first or second letter, so if you have Xx or xX, there's a 50% change of getting either. If you have xx or XX, then you get either an x (for xx) or an X (for XX).

So when pollen is made from the above genes, you might get ABCDEf, aBCdEf or aBcdEf, etc... So when the seed is formed you get a ratio of genes being expressed, known as the Mendelian ratio. But since this is a limit gene pool, meaning the genes of each parent is the same plant, you can factor out some things, like the xx's and XX's. In a wide gene pool, there's be equal chance for either x or X, but not with one parent. There will either be Xx, xX or XX, xx... The XX and xx genes will stay the same in the offspring.

-Loki


I understand your logic, but we need to see something that contradicts what was in "the cannabis grow bible". I cant get google to give up the goods either way. :mad:

And if in fact clone seeds are a myth, why dont i see "Clone seeds are bullshit" in every thread i see referencing them?

#18
caesar5000

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attitude spends millions on marketing they would not over look some thing like clones in seed form ???

#19
caesar5000

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did any one see my photos on page 1 or did this thread move to fast

#20
Loki7

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