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Organic Phosphorus Remedy

  • by jakrustle
  • Nov 04 2010 06:17 PM
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Posted 04 November 2010 - 06:17 PM

could you guys suggest anything I could use for an organic, readily available phosphorus source. My plants are at 4 weeks and very small for their age. Also, they are displaying yellowing leaves with purplish veins in older leaves.

I have recently given them a tea as they should be going into flower this week.

I was thinking of getting a bat guano or something like that, unless there are some better suggestions. These plants are seriously stunted. There are about 6-7 nodes and the bigger plant is only about 4-5 inches tall.

Thanks for any help.

JaK
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Posted 04 November 2010 - 09:36 PM

Bone meal (preferably Steamed Bone Meal), Fish Bone Meal, and rock phosphate are all organic options for Phosphorus, but organics break down slowly, over time. So I would suggest adding one of these ingredients to an AACT or just compost tea to help facilitate nutrient uptake.

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 10:35 PM

I do have some Bone Meal, Down to Earth brand, that I was thinking of adding a tablespoon to a gallon of water to dissolve it than water the plants.

Thx. for the suggestion.

JaK

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 01:01 AM

You could make an awesome phosphorus fertilizer for cheap!!

Buy some organic beets from the local market and make a Fermented Plant Extract! I have some brewing now and have heard it is awesome for flowering. Beets have tons of phosphorus.

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 03:17 AM

Stankie, sounds like a heck of an idea. How did you go about doing that?? I am very interested. What do you think about the time - 7 or 8 days??

Thanks.

JaK

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 04:39 AM

could you guys suggest anything I could use for an organic, readily available phosphorus source. My plants are at 4 weeks and very small for their age. Also, they are displaying yellowing leaves with purplish veins in older leaves.

I have recently given them a tea as they should be going into flower this week.

I was thinking of getting a bat guano or something like that, unless there are some better suggestions. These plants are seriously stunted. There are about 6-7 nodes and the bigger plant is only about 4-5 inches tall.

Thanks for any help.

JaK


Jamaican bat guano 1-10-0.2

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 04:44 AM

I am still pretty new to FPE, but I think you let it sit in a sealed airtight container for 7-10 days. I just made my first batches for my last grow.

I am currently brewing a batch of beet FPE with EM that I made last weekend. I just opened it and it smells like beet vinegar, so I think it is good!

I had a few extra small beets from the garden last summer. Put them in a blender with some spring water, then transfered this smoothie to a plastic bottle. Put in about a tablespoon of EM-1 and let it sit on my counter for about a week so far. It is finished when the ph is less than 3.5. Strain out the plant matter when finished. I don't know if it takes longer if you aren't using EM in your brew.

Edited by Stankie, 05 November 2010 - 04:47 AM.


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Posted 05 November 2010 - 04:48 AM

You could make an awesome phosphorus fertilizer for cheap!!

Buy some organic beets from the local market and make a Fermented Plant Extract! I have some brewing now and have heard it is awesome for flowering. Beets have tons of phosphorus.

Good advice!

The leaves of beets contain 5,936 ppm of phosphorus and the actual root contains 45,580 ppm [cite]

And then there is the Ash content - leaf 15,000 - 250,000 ppm and the root 7,600 - 140,000 ppm

The link lists the major properties in beet leaves and roots.

LD

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 05:09 AM

I am still pretty new to FPE, but I think you let it sit in a sealed airtight container for 7-10 days. I just made my first batches for my last grow.

I am currently brewing a batch of beet FPE with EM that I made last weekend. I just opened it and it smells like beet vinegar, so I think it is good!

I had a few extra small beets from the garden last summer. Put them in a blender with some spring water, then transfered this smoothie to a plastic bottle. Put in about a tablespoon of EM-1 and let it sit on my counter for about a week so far. It is finished when the ph is less than 3.5. Strain out the plant matter when finished. I don't know if it takes longer if you aren't using EM in your brew.

More good advice.

When using roots (beets, carrots, sunchokes, et al) making a smoothie out of them with water breaks down the fiber which makes the fermentation process go faster.

Hitting temps as near 100F is also beneficial. Using a container which allows light to hit the fermenting mix is mandatory to grow out the PNSB (Purple Non-Sulphur Bacteria) strains. These specific bacteria are known as the 'photo-synthesis bacteria' which accelerates the plant's photosynthesis processes which creates more sugars which feeds the fungi colonies in the root zone, blah, blah, blah, blah............

These bacteria are always found in algae - even marine algae (i.e. kelp).

Adding kelp meal to any FPE is a good thing, IMHO

LD

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 05:32 PM

LD/Stankie, thanks for the clarification on the beet FPE and the cite on the chemical info. Hitting up a good organic market today and hoping they have some of the seeds and the beets I want to get for FPE's.

My problem with the plants seems to be confined to the lower mature leaves thus far and not spreading. I am hoping some bone meal I put in there last night (2 tsp/plant) and the subsequent watering this AM will help with the problem. Probably be more of a longer term fix than immediate like an FPE might do?

I put the plants into flower today. I put my roasted egg shell/vinegar calcium on them as well.

Thanks, again, guys.

JaK

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 06:42 PM

JaK

You're probably tired of reading this but if you were to mix up a simple tea using your seaweed extract and mix it according to the label's instructions.

Once you've mixed this then add fish hydrolysate again according to the specific product's directions - don't hi-dose.

Apply that as your irrigating water - you'll see a definite benefit within 24 hours.

It's just an opinion but I think that pin-pointing 'nute fixes' is fraught with peril - not the least is misdiagnosis which is rampant in the online gardening world regardless of the plant being discussed.

The combination of seaweed (kelp) and fish is almost a holy sacrament in organic farming & gardening circles. For many this is the only 'nute' added to a garden through the entire season and for good reason(s).

HTH

LD

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 06:50 PM

JaK

There's a line of liquid guano products called 'Budswel' which is available at most of the grow stores in the so-called '11 Western States' and they've been around for almost 30 years. They're based somewhere in the hinderlands of southern Oregon - <shudder>

Their liquid guano liquids are not simply water with some guano tossed in. They ferment (like using EM-1, SCD Bio Ag, lacto serum, et al) the guanos for several weeks and then it's bottled and shipped.

From the standpoint of nutrient availability it's a good method of using these amendments given their outrageous pricing at grow stores. Bat guano 0-18-0 is $50.00 for 50# in the real world. I've seen it as high as $5.50 per 1 lb. at grow stores.

One of the world's largest distributors of bat and bird guanos is down in Arizona - ABG (Archipelago Bat Guano) and they've been in business forever. Cheap, cheap, cheap with their products widely used after the N*P*K numbers have been platyed with as allowed by law sadly enough.

LD

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 07:41 PM

Good advice!

The leaves of beets contain 5,936 ppm of phosphorus and the actual root contains 45,580 ppm [cite]

And then there is the Ash content - leaf 15,000 - 250,000 ppm and the root 7,600 - 140,000 ppm

The link lists the major properties in beet leaves and roots.

LD



LD is "ash content" is a total mineral content (ie what's left after burning - and only thing not burned is minerals)?
tia

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 07:48 PM

LD is "ash content" is a total mineral content (ie what's left after burning - and only thing not burned is minerals)?
tia

absolut666

That's certainly the typical way of expressing it. Another is that 'ash is the total mineral content' in a sample.

A distinction without a difference.

LD

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 04:45 PM

JaK
It's just an opinion but I think that pin-pointing 'nute fixes' is fraught with peril - not the least is misdiagnosis which is rampant in the online gardening world regardless of the plant being discussed.

The combination of seaweed (kelp) and fish is almost a holy sacrament in organic farming & gardening circles. For many this is the only 'nute' added to a garden through the entire season and for good reason(s).

HTH

LD


LD, "fraught with perils" is an understatement. I go through the threads online about plant diagnosis and it just makes my head spin.

One thing keeps going through my head when I look at my plants and try to see what is wrong with them. That is the statement you once made of people always trying to find something to fix rather than seeing if we overdid something to begin with - or something like that. I hope I didn't butcher your good advice.

Actually your idea of giving them the Neptune's Harvest Fish Hydrolysate and the Kelp Extract I have sounds like a good idea. I had been a bit worried about giving them any right now since both those were in an ACT I gave them about 5 days ago.

Anyway, when you say tea, you mean diluting in a gallon of water and feeding them? Or, actually brewing up an ACT? Just so I am clear.

I will give things a few days and hit 'em with your recommendation. One plant seems to be recovering, but the other runt is too far gone I believe. Seriously, it is 4 weeks old and about 4" tall with about 8 sets of leaves. Never seen anything like it.

JaK

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 06:12 PM

JaK

One of the world's largest distributors of bat and bird guanos is down in Arizona - ABG (Archipelago Bat Guano) and they've been in business forever. Cheap, cheap, cheap with their products widely used after the N*P*K numbers have been platyed with as allowed by law sadly enough.

LD


LD, thanks for the great reference. I found them, as they are in Tucson. My daughter lives down there. Next time I visit, I will have to do some shopping down there. I have found a lot of great resources in the Tucson area. Finding more bit by bit in the Phoenix area, though it seems a little hit and miss.

Here's their site if anyone wants to check them out.http://www.archipelagobatguano.com/



JaK

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 08:25 PM

LD, "fraught with perils" is an understatement. I go through the threads online about plant diagnosis and it just makes my head spin.

One thing keeps going through my head when I look at my plants and try to see what is wrong with them. That is the statement you once made of people always trying to find something to fix rather than seeing if we overdid something to begin with - or something like that. I hope I didn't butcher your good advice.

Actually your idea of giving them the Neptune's Harvest Fish Hydrolysate and the Kelp Extract I have sounds like a good idea. I had been a bit worried about giving them any right now since both those were in an ACT I gave them about 5 days ago.

Anyway, when you say tea, you mean diluting in a gallon of water and feeding them? Or, actually brewing up an ACT? Just so I am clear.

I will give things a few days and hit 'em with your recommendation. One plant seems to be recovering, but the other runt is too far gone I believe. Seriously, it is 4 weeks old and about 4" tall with about 8 sets of leaves. Never seen anything like it.

JaK


I love diagnosing plants, i can see what's lacking no problem, but helping people fix it isn't easy becasue they are all using bottle of stuff to fix the problem and i don't know what bottle they used that caused the problem but it's usually a new bottle they bought last to fix the last problem from 2 weeks ago...at least with soil it's more straight forward, your soil is lacking something you need to put in it.
Remember my K problem, all the seeds and nuts and stuff i used? it's worked btw. You can add stuff to the soil mid grow and not kill off the plant, i gently poke verticle holes with a pencil and added coloums of 'stuff high in K' to the soil, you could probably do the same, or top dress if you think your root zone would get injured too bad by poke holes. I'd try this for shits and giggles, guano(high P guano) and steamed bone meal tea with hydrolyze fish in it and a handful of EWC or compost to start the breakdown in a bubble bucket and run for 15 hours to optimize the fungus content.

you can make a lactobacillus bucket with cantaloupe rinds(high P), cucumber skins, and potatoe skins and when it's slimey you add phosphoric acid until the ph is ok and use some in water to give your plant some P. Take a while longer than the bone-batpoop tea. Are you showing signs of K def too, i noticed that they come together for me in my plants, i know not why, maybe plants needing the missing P need extra K to facilitate the movement somehow??? Post a pic.

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 02:58 PM

Skunk. Thanks for the ideas. I am not sure if they are showing a K deficiency also or not. Seems so many of the N,P,K deficiencies can mimic one another, I am a bit apprehensive about calling it any one thing.

I was thinking of doing a solution of Neptunes fish hydrolysate and Seaweed extract this AM (LD suggested also). I have already worked a couple teaspoons of Bone Meal into the top inch or so of each. Also gave them an ACT about 5 days ago.

What I am hoping now is I don't create any toxicity. You think with all that in the last 5 days that I should put anything else on, or just water for a few days and see what happens?

I am in these Air Pots now and I think I am probably watering darn near every day. I was hoping for a couple good plants to kick these off, but getting off to a slow start.

Thanks again for the help.

JaK

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 03:51 PM

Got some pics of the runts. I put a 77mm lens cap next to these plants to show you how small these guys are. This lens cap is about 4 fingers high.

One pic of each with the cap for a comparison and one of the typical deficiency I am seeing in the leaves. The bigger of the two is actually showing some signs of stretching this AM. Definitely healthier than the other. Wondering if I should pull the plug on the little one or just see how things work out. For now they both stay. Let me know what you guys think. Thanks guys.


JaK

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 04:24 PM

Jak

How about a bit of an experiment on the runt instead of tossing it?

Myself, I really don't feel you have deficiency problems, not at 4 weeks and not at that size. I do feel you have some sort of toxicity thing going on from over application of ??????

At 4 weeks, my plants would just be getting or just had their first feeding/tea/ACCT/whatever. Before that, they are just in recycled mix with no amendments added, just whatever is left from the previous grow.

Here's the experiment. Do nothing for the runt but plain water as needed and whatever is in your soil mix for a couple of weeks to a month. Nothing else.

I just get the impression that you are 'over loving' your plants and the result is like trying to force feed an infant a 28oz T-Bone steak.

I'll bet the plant will take off once you stop the extra feeding.

Keep it in veg and give it a shot.

BTW, internodes that tight is a very good thing. Mucho bud sites not all stretched out. You ought to consider cloning both of those.

Wet


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