Lucas Formula 2.0-How to maximize the Lucas Formula

Discussion in 'Advanced Growing Techniques' started by DrTrichome, Jun 8, 2010.

  1. #1 DrTrichome, Jun 8, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 31, 2010
    Hey GC,
    Many of us have been capitalizing on the use of the infamous Bubble Bucket method while using the Lucas Formula with great results. However, I have seen a countless number of threads regarding issues with the Lucas Formula so I created this thread to resolve all of these issues and diminish the need for multiple threads all asking the same question.

    The Lucas Formula is described as using General Hydroponics FloraMicro and FloraBloom at a ratio of 1 part Micro-2 parts Bloom throughout the entire grow. The problem lies on how "Lucas" describes the desired strength. He says to use 8ml Micro to 16ml Bloom per gallon of water which has a tds of about 960ppm or so. This is a good average to go by but since different strains have different nutrient requirements, my method will maximize your nutrients leading to a healthier, more vigorous grow with less needs to flush.

    This method will require the use of a tds meter, I would recommend the Tri-Meter by Nutradip or the Hanna Tri-Meter for these make this very easy to accomplish.

    Also, for all of you using other brands of nutrients (House & Garden Aqua Flakes, Advanced 3-part or Sensi Bloom A+B or Connoisseur, or Fox Farm hydro, or whatever) can use this same method to enhance the value of your nutrients.

    When you fill your buckets or reservoir with solution at say, 800ppm, then after a few days (more or less) some has evaporated and some has been absorbed and transpired by the plants. If at this point, before topping off with water, if the tds is less than 800ppm, say 650ppm, then the solution was too weak to begin with and could be higher than 800ppm. On the other hand, if the tds rises with the water level lowering, say now it is 1000ppm, then it was too strong to begin with and should be less than the original 800ppm. Of course as the plant grows taller and bushier and reaches different stages of flowering, it may have different requirements but this will eliminate the potential of lockout issues due to the tds getting too high when you are too busy to maintain it for a day or more. Once dialed in to your plants needs, the water level can drop as much as you need, without affecting the tds or pH of the solution. With every top-off of water, nutrient will need to be added since the plants are now up-taking an even ratio of water-to-nutrients.

    I have seen a noticeable improvement of overall growth, yield and reduction of maintenance once I implemented this method of adding nutrients to my bubble bucket systems. I am confident that it will improve yours as well. Let me know if you have any questions about it. Peace
     
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  2. :hello:

    Nice write up bro.....

    So when I refer to being DIALED IN. you just explained it to the T.... and boy do the ladies suck up the water and nutes..... its quite impressive..

    It makes maint. a breeze and heck, I can even go out of town for up to 5 days without worries...

    Off to see a man about a horse..... happy gardening!!!

    :wave:

    :smoking::smoking::smoking:
     
  3. Hmmm. I dunno. That sounds like a lot more work than was intended with the lucas formula. It was never intended to feed all of your plants needs and/or wants. I've always thought of the lucas formula as a good learning point, even though there are some growers on here that use it quite effectively *cough* rumpleforeskin *cough* I just feel that the LF was just a starting point, eventually IF YOU want to give more to your plants than you can do so. Otherwise you can follow the 8ml 16ml method and be just fine and grow good bud with that.

    The method gives instructions on how to use it without burning up your plants. Sure you can adjust how much you're giving them but that's all you're doing is feeding them more than what they are supposed to get (according to LF) which in turn would increase plant growth, that's a given, you're giving them more thus they will increase productivity for you in the end.

    I don't mean for that to come across as sounding like a dick or anything. It's just if you're gonna start playing with the Lucas Formula than you're no longer using it as the Lucas Formula. My plants for example. I started them off of a variant that was actually created in addition with the original LF which uses FNB at 8ml/gallon, well I started with that but as soon as I added my Floralicious Plus, it's no longer the trusty LF anymore. And since I played with it even more, increasing my feedings to around 9ml-10ml/gallon + FLP, now I'm definitely not using the LF anymore at all, now it's just some fucked up feeding program that I came up with using Lucas to start. But I can't call it the Lucas Formula. If you use anything other than 8ml/16ml per gallon than it's not the Lucas Formula anymore, and all you did was adjust it to the needs of your plants. Which again I'm not trying to say it's wrong or writeup is crap or anything like that...just offering my own meandering experience.
     
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  4. What Doc is describing is the proper way to grow with a EC meter. You chart and adjust nutrient strength according to the consumption of the plant. It is impossible to overfeed (burn) or underfeed your plants using this method and a balanced complete nutrient. It is irrelevent wether you are using the Lucas "ratio" 2:1 bloom to micro, or any other line of nutrients.

    I imagine that the reason that doc is posting this is because so many people throw their plants in a bucket of 0-8-16 under a 400w and wonder why the plant shows so many negative effects. Then most noob growers (and some experienced growers) think that their are all these random "deficiencies", when in reality the problem is overfeeding. The ONLY way to determine the proper feeding schedule for a plant is to track EC/TDS and adjust your nutrient solution in response to it.

    Learning to grow using this method means you can run entire grows without flushing your resevoir ever, because your solution never reaches high concentrations or has large pH swings (since pH swings inversely compared to EC).
     
  5. #5 soapman, Jun 8, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 8, 2010
    Since when is using an EC/tds meter and charting down records of how high or low it is the 'proper' way to grow. And it is completely relevent because Doc wrote this article based on his experience with Lucas Formula? So I don't understand what you're saying.

    And doc here, isn't addressing any deficiencies. The lucas formula isn't the best way to feed plants, but it is a great starting point because it works and is very cheap and very very easy to use. I used the lucas formula and it taught me a lot about adding nutes to plants, using my ph meter and tds meter. But I could say that now, if I was to go back to the LF I could use it completely without a tds meter or ph meter. That's how consistent it is. The guess work was takin out of the whole process. That's the point of the lucas formula, unless you use add back than there's a little bit more math involved. As long as you stick to what the lucas formula addresses in the guide you literally shouldn't have any problems. A lot of the time it's the incompetence of the grower at hand causing you're said "deficiency" issues.
     

  6. I find posts by growers all of the time who are having issues with the lucas formula, and this method fixed them all *cough* This is just taking the simple but great lucas formula to the next level for growers who really want to dial in their systems. Hence the 2.0. Also, this method eliminates waste and will never cause lockouts (which often occur with the generic lucas formula) therefore increasing yield, flavor, and perhaps potency. Its not all about charting the tds of the solution, but using the tds to tell you what the plants are using, and what they need. It's that simple. Peace


    Shoot, nuff said Super.
     
  7. Hmmm, Well I dunno. I can't really say much since I don't use the Lucas formula anymore. I also can't really say much because I've never had any issues with the LF that didn't result in being my own ignorant self's fault. It's good info none the less, especially for the less experienced growers.
     
  8. This method would be perfect for you considering that on your thread you mention losing one of your plants due to lock-out issues. What this does is take the guesswork out of any generic nutrient formula and make it MORE advanced to focus on the actual requirements of the plants. I know you think it sounds crazy, but at least you won't be losing any more plants. Peace
     
  9. #9 soapman, Jun 8, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 8, 2010
    Right, but like I said in my thread, there's a whole lot more to that story than you know. I mean she was fucked from the very start...and I could've pulled her through and I did but basically I just left her alone after that and didn't bother tryin to recover cause she was already so far behind on my car.

    She recovered just fine as she was growin with the lucas formula cause I didn't want to waste my good stuff on her. and like i said it happened because I didn't understand the information that was supplied to me and just kinda went fourth and gave her wayyyyy too much.

    I don't think it sounds crazy...that's pretty much how I give my plants nutrients when I use anything other than the lucas formula. But I've never had any issues when using the lucas formula straight up no burning no overfeeding no nothing.
     
  10. I currently am. Using 0-8-16. Growing 1 WW and 1 Northern Lights. My ppm and ph #'s are nice and steady day by day. My temps hold steady at 78 with the light on, humidity ranges from 40 - 60 % depending on the weather. Yet, my Northern Lights plant is developing yellow spots all over the fan leaves, which from my research appears to be nute burn. I am not positive of this yet, but everything else is reading perfect, and the WW is thriving. (DWC setup in an 18 Gal res with the Lucas Form). So I am actually going to try to bring the nute level down a bit and see if that makes any difference. But yea, things can go wrong wit the straight 0-8-16 as I am now finding out.
     
  11. Sure they can but not always. If the tds stays stable as the water level drops, then it is probably at an ideal strength for your plants. However, with more than one strain in a system, it will be hard to dial it in to a "T" so you will have to find a nice average to go with. When I grew both GDP and Lavender in the same system, the GDP would get those spots on the bigger fan leaves as well. After trying flushing, epsom salts, and many other things, I tried raising the nutrient strength from 950 to 1100 and it cleared it right up. I am not saying that this will be the case for you, but as I expected nute burn, it turned out to be the opposite. Peace
     
  12. Interesting thread...the lucas formula 2.0 is the the general hydroponics 3 part system. Flora, Micro & Bloom.

    I have read many many threads in preparation for my hydro grow and it seemed that many of the ones using it were suffering from nute burns and deficiencies (mag) and having to take repair methods.

    I questioned the validity of the formula, looking to improve it.

    The lucas formula seems to be 'sold' on the basis that it only takes 2 parts of a 3 part formula, hence it's cheaper and easier.

    I run a 48 gal tank. Running the lucas formula at 4 weeks in veg at 5ml Micro and 10ml Bloom, and then 9 weeks at 8ml and 16ml I would end up using 13.2 L of nutrients. Running the general hydroponics formula I would end up using 14.2 L. So really only 1L more.

    I decided to go with the 3 part series and touch wood I am having no major symptoms so far and I am growing 3 strains. Also, growers using their advanced formula are showing some major buds!!!

    I think the most important part is being able to calculate your tops ups and keeping a balance. The 3 part formula seems to give more leeway being able to leave the tank for a few days. Something I really appreciate.
     

  13. This is a common misconception about the Lucas Formula. There is no separate veg and flower formula, its all 0-8-16. Lucas recommends 0-5-10 for low light grows. So if you veg under fluro and flower under hid, then it would be 0-5-10 and 0-8-16, but otherwise its one or the other for the entire grow, depending on your light.
     
  14. Hey, thanx for that, and you may actually be right. I started my grow with 50% strength nutes as Lucas recommends for seedlings, and the NL suffered badly and stunted. She began to recover nicely with the full 0-8-16, but maybe thats actually not enough for her. That seems to make more sense then over nutes since she didn't like 50% at all.
     


  15. Actually the Lucas formula came from and is based on trying to hit the 100-100-200 NPK ratios set forth as optimum for cannibis cultivation by rosenthal back in the day. You cannot even get in the ballpark of that target ratio while using the grow, but you can get very close just using micro/bloom. the lucas formula has also been converted for use with several other lines of "complete" nutrients.

    GH 3 part works well also, i know, so use what you are comfortable with of course.





    People really should get over the strength of the solution as listed by lucas. with a meter you can tell exactly how strong the nutrients SHOULD be, based on what the plant is consuming.

    What you say is true, lucas recommends just 0-8-16 for High Intensity Lighting, but he also highly recommends only using the water add-back or 33% top off method then. When he talks about using the 100% top off method, he ditches the 0-8-16 and starts talking about current and target EC/TDS readings, which is exactly what Doc is talking about in this thread. When you grow using EC/TDS, you stop using volume os nutrients added, and start working off the actual strength/concentration of the solution.



    Invest in a meter, it eliminates the guessing or chasing down the "phantom" problem. I promise you will never look back....
     
  16. I agree with you, and its how I run my system as well. I also try to help people here by giving the same advice. If your TDS numbers remain steady, then you are dialed in, no matter what the strength of the nutes. I tell them to ignore what they read the TDS should be, because they need to go by their grow, by what their meters are telling them.

    I also use the add back formula as well for my grow.

    I just correct people when I see them quote the lucas Formula as 0-5-10 for veg, and 0-8-16 for flower, because that is not what is recommended. I appreciate your input though. I am always looking to learn more.



    I have a meter. Like I stated, my numbers are all rock solid. My ppm is 1060 and remains there from day to day, which tells me they are eating and drinking equally. My temps are good, my humidity is good. My PH ranges from 5.4 - 5.8. So I am not sure of the cause of the yellow spots on my Northern Lights Fan leaves. But yes, I use my meters everyday. I would not grow without them.
     

  17. The original lucas formula recommends 0-5-10 in veg and 0-8-16 in flowering. This was later modified to reflect the use of cfls.

    Lucas Formula

    Now if you are using cfls go with a 0-5-10 regime, because simply there won't be enough light for the plants to consume a 0-8-16 ratio and thus will result in burns. If you are using HIDs on the other hand I see no harm in going for a 0-5-10 ratio in veg to start them off. I feel that 0-8-16 would be too strong in veg and they would certainly benefit from a milder dose.

    Regardless of 5/10 or 8/16 ratios what strikes me of about the lucas formula is the strict regime! My girls are not the same in the first week of flowering compared to the last, but according to lucas it is the same regime, and this is the part that I, and I believe the Doc, are looking to improve.

    When was the lucas formula developed? Quite a few years ago I believe. Today you can go on the GH site and use their calculators to dial in your grow down to 0.1 ml. It automatically gives you ppms and calculates transitional phases from mild growth, to growth, transitional, flowering and bloom. I have a meter, but honestly I could be doing without it. So far everything is as per the website and no signs of burn.

    I find the lucas formula a major milestone in cannabis cultivation, but the times are changing. You will use roughly the same amount of nutes if you are using the 2 part lucas formula or the 3 part GH formula so why not go with the GH 3 part? Many lucas grows report burns as well as confusion on top ups. Go with 3 part series and problem solved.

    Now I have looked at the concentration of nutes in the gro-micro and bloom and using a 2 part series will certainly give the plants all the nutrients they need. However, of the grows that I have seen using the 3 part nutes there are far far less problems of burns or deficiencies.

    My advice, go with the 3 part.
     
  18. Whether you prefer the 2-part GH formula or all 3, or even Advanced Sensi Bloom or Connoisseur or House & Garden or whatever in bubblebuckets, this thread was made for you. The point of it is to break away from the recipes and use them solely for ratios. Many two-part nutrient lines use equal parts, and of course lucas uses 2 parts bloom to one part micro. That should all stay the same. The desired strength of the solution is what this thread really addresses. It is for anyone with bubblebuckets who want to really get to know their strains by adding nutrient to solution based on what they are up-taking rather than what a bottle or recipe says to add. With folks using the good ole lucas formula, 0-8-16 is a great place to start but it does not work perfectly for every strain and just because no signs of burn are showing, does not mean that lockouts aren't starting or already occurring in the solution. And on the other hand, some strains would benefit from having a higher strength solution. So how do we know if it should be stronger or weaker if no signs of burn or deficiency are visibly present? By feeding them based on how much they eat. The first post on this thread explains how to accomplish this. Hope this cleared up any misconceptions. Peace
     
  19. @BadAxe - are you growing multiple strains/phenos in the same system?
     
  20. Just growing 2 plants right now from seed. 1 White Widow, and 1 Northern Lights. I figured try this out, and if it goes successful, my next grow will start with mothers. But for this grow, just 2 plants, 2 strains in the same DWC res.
     

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