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Ban religion from schools


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#61
Sir Elliot

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Read the thread;)

It's about the fact that religion and science teach conflicting messages (in many areas) and in the original post where a religiously inclined science teacher taught his class with what can at best be called creationist spin.


Can we please get this thread moved to the I-have-no-idea-what-I'm-talking-about forum, aka sprituality and philosophy?

At least try and understand the topic and the reality of the situation before spouting off shallow talking points?

#62
H2O420

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How 'bout we stop blaming religion for our problems and teach our kids how to have a conscious thought?

Anybody?

#63
Lionel Hutz

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How 'bout we stop blaming religion for our problems and teach our kids how to have a conscious thought?

Anybody?



We can't do that because then people will "wake up"

Can't have people thinking for themselves now can we? :)

#64
JuicyGoose

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Edited by GirlyS, 12 February 2010 - 05:30 PM.


#65
UU_ood

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If your talking pure "science" there is no way to prove either theory... that's why it's called a theory.


No, you're wrong. A theory is an explanation of natural phenomenon. It has nothing to do with whether or not it has been proven. You clearly don't know what a scientific theory is.

Seriously, what difference does it make if there is prayer in school or not? How will that effect the productivity of the school? Why are we worried about 2 minutes at the beginning of each day? Shouldn't we spend our time and money and effort on something more important? Maybe making sure our schools are actually educating our youth instead of just forcing useless bullshit down their throats?


Public schools are funded by the government. The government should not endorse any religion. If you want religion in your school, go to a private school. Can't afford it? Tough, you can always pray and teach your children in your own home.

How 'bout we stop blaming religion for our problems and teach our kids how to have a conscious thought?

Anybody?


By teaching religion as fact, or as credible as science, we would be deterring children from self-determination.

Edited by UU_ood, 12 February 2010 - 10:15 PM.


#66
SpacedOut

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Well if you think about it scinece is no more than a modern religion


How can you say this while using a computer to post on the internet?

#67
chiefton8

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#68
Lionel Hutz

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Good point...you've successfully shown the world how painfully ignorant you are.

Really? care to enlighten me?


By that argument, we shouldn't teach history either I suppose...or read Shakespeare.

Nope. That's a nice straw man you got there though...

Learning where we came from and how we got here has tremendous impact on understanding where life on earth is headed and what we can do to influence said path.

haha, funny because the source of our life and existence has never been proven.

#69
Lionel Hutz

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No, you're wrong. A theory is an explanation of natural phenomenon. It has nothing to do with whether or not it has been proven. You clearly don't know what a scientific theory is.

Clearly. Do you know what Scientific Law is? Why don't you tell us the difference between the two


Public schools are funded by the government. The government should not endorse any religion.

Maybe we wouldn't run into this problem if the schools weren't funded by the government. Which is what I was getting at if your read my first post.


If you want religion in your school, go to a private school. Can't afford it? Tough, you can always pray and teach your children in your own home.

So basically, if you can't afford a private school (which is a far majority of the population) you have absolutely no say in what your child learns at school. This is a FABULOUS way to educate our youth. Let's just have ONE big entity telling everyone the same history of the world. We can call it the ministry of truth....



By teaching religion as fact,

Where exactly is this religion being taught as "fact"? Do you have any other area that religion effects besides the "THEORY" or creationism? You guys are so up in arms about abolishing this evilness from our children's education but I don't really think kids learn ANYTHING about religion in school so what's the big fuss about?


or as credible as science, we would be deterring children from self-determination.

Deterring children from self-determination? Your certainly a wordsmith i'll give you that....
:hide:

#70
UU_ood

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haha, funny because the source of our life and existence has never been proven.


Depends what you mean by source of our "life". Theory of evolution is as far back as we can get.

#71
H2O420

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God does not disprove the atom and the atom does not disprove god.

#72
Lionel Hutz

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Depends what you mean by source of our "life". Theory of evolution is as far back as we can get.

That's true, but it still doesn't make it concrete, 100% truth.

Is that the only point your going to respond to?

#73
UU_ood

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That's true, but it still doesn't make it concrete, 100% truth.

Is that the only point your going to respond to?


Atoms, plate tectonics, the existence of Stalin, the addictiveness of heroin is not 100% concrete. Nothing is 100% concrete truth. What's your point?

#74
UU_ood

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Clearly. Do you know what Scientific Law is? Why don't you tell us the difference between the two


A scientific law is an empirical statement on natural phenomenon. Rather than explaining the phenomenon, it simply asserts. A scientific theory is an explanation of a natural phenomenon. Now you know.



Maybe we wouldn't run into this problem if the schools weren't funded by the government. Which is what I was getting at if your read my first post.


Really? You'd take schools away from the government just because you think learning institutions should allow prayer? Wow.



So basically, if you can't afford a private school (which is a far majority of the population) you have absolutely no say in what your child learns at school. This is a FABULOUS way to educate our youth. Let's just have ONE big entity telling everyone the same history of the world. We can call it the ministry of truth....


Then who's going to pay for the schools? Okay, the government does not pay for the school. Now there will only be private schools.


Where exactly is this religion being taught as "fact"? Do you have any other area that religion effects besides the "THEORY" or creationism? You guys are so up in arms about abolishing this evilness from our children's education but I don't really think kids learn ANYTHING about religion in school so what's the big fuss about?


This is just confusing. Religions, their history, and philosophical-related courses DO exist. What are you arguing here?



Deterring children from self-determination? Your certainly a wordsmith i'll give you that....
:hide:


How so?

#75
Shade

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Really? You'd take schools away from the government just because you think learning institutions should allow prayer? Wow.


I'd take schools back from the government because the government shouldn't be indoctrinating and institutionalizing children, youth and young adults with an education of omission, misinformation, and propaganda let alone unnecessary compulsory attendance.

Part of the reason for this tyranny over the nation's youth is misplaced altruism on the part of the educated middle class. The workers, or the "lower classes," they felt, should have the opportunity to enjoy the schooling the middle classes value so highly. And if the parents or the children of the masses should be so benighted as to balk at this glorious opportunity set before them, well, then, a little coercion must be applied — "for their own good," of course.


A crucial fallacy of the middle-class school worshippers is confusion between formal schooling and education in general. Education is a lifelong process of learning, and learning takes place not only in school, but in all areas of life. When the child plays, or listens to parents or friends, or reads a newspaper, or works at a job, he or she is becoming educated. Formal schooling is only a small part of the educational process, and is really only suitable for formal subjects of instruction, particularly in the more advanced and systematic subjects. The elementary subjects, reading, writing, arithmetic and their corollaries, can easily be learned at home and outside the school.

Furthermore, one of the great glories of mankind is its diversity, the [p. 121] fact that each individual is unique, with unique abilities, interests, and aptitudes. To coerce into formal schooling children who have neither the ability nor the interest in this area is a criminal warping of the soul and mind of the child.


Indeed, if we look into the history of the drive for public schooling and compulsory attendance in this and other countries, we find at the root not so much misguided altruism as a conscious scheme to coerce the mass of the population into a mould desired by the Establishment. Recalcitrant minorities were to be forced into a majority mould; all citizens were to be inculcated in the civic virtues, notably and always including obedience to the State apparatus. Indeed, if the mass of the populace is to be educated in government schools, how could these schools not become a mighty instrument for the inculcation of obedience to the State authorities? Martin Luther, a leader in the first modern drive for compulsory State education, phrased the plea typically in his famous letter of 1524 to the rulers of Germany:

Dear rulers . . . . I maintain that the civil authorities are under obligation to compel the people to send their children to school . . . . If the government can compel such citizens as are fit for military service to bear spear and rifle, to mount ramparts, and perform other martial duties in time of war, how much more has it a right to the people to send their children to school, because in this case we are warring with the devil, whose object it is secretly to exhaust our cities and principalities . . . .


The government has attempted to indoctrinate and mould the nation's youth through the public school system, and to mould the future leaders through State operation and control of higher education. Abolition of compulsory attendance laws would end the schools' role as prison custodians of the nation's youth, and would free all those better off outside the schools for independence and for productive work. The abolition of the public schools would end the crippling property tax burden and provide a vast range of education to satisfy all the freely exercised needs and demands of our diverse and varied population. The abolition of government schooling would end the unjust coerced subsidy granted to large families, and, often, toward the upper classes and against the poor. The miasma of government, of moulding the youth of America in the direction desired by the State, would be replaced by freely chosen and voluntary actions — in short, by a genuine and truly free education, both in and out of formal schools.

- Murray N. Rothbard, For a New Liberty (excerpts)

Then who's going to pay for the schools? Okay, the government does not pay for the school. Now there will only be private schools.


What's wrong with that? Market competition would increase efficiency, diversity and decrease cost. Lack of mandated coercion from the state would lower demand and decrease cost. Lack of state-funded and state-managed schools would eliminate the state's coercive monopoly on the education system, allowing for decreased costs in the private sector, as well as improved quality.

School isn't free now, just as it wouldn't be free without government. The difference is we'd actually have a variety of choice and options open up to individuals, families and communities. It is also feasible to suggest that private charities may arise to provide for elementary education to the lower classes.

Of course, I don't think I'd personally suggest liberating the education system from the oppressive hand of the state prior to greater overhauls in economic policy, as the transition would be much more smooth and manageable only after certain other changes have taken place.

#76
UU_ood

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I'd take schools back from the government because the government shouldn't be indoctrinating and institutionalizing children, youth and young adults with an education of omission, misinformation, and propaganda let alone unnecessary compulsory attendance.


You sound like a conspirator. There will always be misinformation and bias in education. Compulsory attendance applies to any education, homeschooled, private and public. I don't understand your point. Besides, this is getting off-topic.





- Murray N. Rothbard, For a New Liberty (excerpts)



What's wrong with that? Market competition would increase efficiency, diversity and decrease cost. Lack of mandated coercion from the state would lower demand and decrease cost. Lack of state-funded and state-managed schools would eliminate the state's coercive monopoly on the education system, allowing for decreased costs in the private sector, as well as improved quality.

School isn't free now, just as it wouldn't be free without government. The difference is we'd actually have a variety of choice and options open up to individuals, families and communities. It is also feasible to suggest that private charities may arise to provide for elementary education to the lower classes.

Of course, I don't think I'd personally suggest liberating the education system from the oppressive hand of the state prior to greater overhauls in economic policy, as the transition would be much more smooth and manageable only after certain other changes have taken place.


This is off-topic now. The topic and OP was on schools, evolution and religion.

#77
Lionel Hutz

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You sound like a conspirator.

haha! Conspirator to do what? Change the education system for the better?


There will always be misinformation and bias in education.

WTF really? That's a pretty grim assessment...Does anyone else think this might be an area we want to concentrate our effort on changing?


This is off-topic now. The topic and OP was on schools, evolution and religion.

Well the truth is whether or not we teach evolution or creation is not really important. Education system is an important limb in the body of American prosperity. Right now it's infected and we're putting bandaids on the wound....

#78
UU_ood

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[quote name='Lionel Hutz']haha! Conspirator to do what? Change the education system for the better?

He talks as if he thinks public schools are dogmatic.

[quote name='Lionel Hutz']WTF really? That's a pretty grim assessment...Does anyone else think this might be an area we want to concentrate our effort on changing? [/quote]

I never said don't improve the system, it will just never be flawless. Privatizing schools so that they can teach courses like evolution won't improve education. Also, the best universities in the country are private. You have among the most intelligent people in the world going to private universities in this country.

[quote name='Lionel Hutz']Well the truth is whether or not we teach evolution or creation is not really important. Education system is an important limb in the body of American prosperity. Right now it's infected and we're putting bandaids on the wound....[/quote]

Then this is completely off topic. The subject was on religion and school. You've managed to completely void evolution and creationism to conclude on an irrelevant point.

#79
Lionel Hutz

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haha! Conspirator to do what? Change the education system for the better?



He talks as if he thinks public schools are dogmatic.

Who's to say they aren't?


I never said don't improve the system, it will just never be flawless.

No, it's more like you are accepting the gross inadequacies of public education and just saying "meh, can't have a perfect system..."


Privatizing schools so that they can teach courses like evolution won't improve education.

First off, why do you keep bringing up evolution or creationism? This is a small FRACTION of what our kids learn in school. Do you really think the only difference between private schools is that one teaches evolution and the other teaches creationism? I'm still waiting for someone to give me an example of religion really conflicting with school cirriculum BESIDES the "theory of creationism".


Also, the best universities in the country are private. You have among the most intelligent people in the world going to private universities in this country.

What's your point? Because I would argue that most elite universities have used the market to become INCREDIBLY successful. Meanwhile the state funded schools are in dire straits.

Then this is completely off topic. The subject was on religion and school. You've managed to completely void evolution and creationism to conclude on an irrelevant point.

Is Evolution vs. Creation the ONLY issue here? is there any other problem that religion creates in public school besides one little line in the history/science books?

#80
Shade

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You sound like a conspirator.


Er... ok? :confused: I'd rather conspire against injustice than conform to it.

There will always be misinformation and bias in education.


"There will always be murder"

Compulsory attendance applies to any education, homeschooled, private and public.


The point is it shouldn't. Don't confuse schooling with education.

I don't understand your point.


Clearly.

Besides, this is getting off-topic.

This is off-topic now. The topic and OP was on schools, evolution and religion.


This thread is about religion and schools, centering around mandates and the compulsory laws. To say this is off topic is a cop out and nothing more. If you can't connect the dots, that's your own failing, quite frankly.




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