How long do you usually meditate for Androgenicx? If one meditates for too short of a period one may not reach that 'bliss' or equilibrium or whatever you wanna call it. Yet if one meditates too long one may find oneself becoming distracted. This may be a naive question, but i've never tried meditation before so please don't laught at me
As long as feels possible feels right feels necessary. Some days might go without any meditation, some with a single 20 minute session, average days these days with 2-3 30-40 minute sessions, some days a total of 4-5 hours, longest session so far being about 2 hours unbroken. Its not about the length, some may find what they need from the meditation fast, some longer. Some take longer to get into a meditative state, some shorter. For me, these days within 30 seconds of being in meditation the "click" of the meditative state occurs. Energies start floating and pulsing around my body, white lights start flashing around in front of my closed eyes, my crown starts tightening and vibrating like a drill with energy, it pours in and around my third and fourth eyes, and there is an upward pulsing of energy from my root. My neck literally "clicks" into a neutral position and doesn't move. If at any point in the meditation I move my head or as i come out of the meditation, i can feel every muscle fiber in my neck "unclick". Often when i move my head it falls and "clicks" into another position, like the head on a plastic doll. Soon bodily extremes start closing in and alot of my body stops being experienced, my hands in a connected mudra either buddha mudra or dhyana only feel like light energy and "fuse" together, stop existing like seperate entities. At some point legs dont feel like legs but like some light field of energy, at some point the hands resting on the legs stop being seperate. One interesting experience was when both my palms vanished into energy and it felt like the left palm which was underneath the other palm was upside down and my forearm was twisted..i checked, amused, to see that it was sitting perfectly normal the way I left it. From here on its not difficult to sit in meditation anymore, the energy just carries me deeper and deeper. I don't do anything - just sit, and try not to interfere with anything, not the energies, not my thoughts, nothing. Why do I have to do anything? Why the obsession with feeling obligated to doing something? When I first tried to "just sit", the question kept arising, how do you "do nothing" without doing something? The experience is not to do something, to feel like there is somewhere to go, something to be attained, some meditative state to be reached - it is the realization that there is nothing to achieve nothing to attain nothing to fear nothing to bother about at all, not even spirituality, enlightenment, or god realization. Then the mind drops, for it has nothing to hold onto any longer. The click came after awhile, and now it happens much more easily. I just sit - meditation happens. "Bliss is like a breeze. As long as you have your hands open, you can feel it flow. Once you try to possess it, it moves away from you" A journey of a thousand miles begins with one step - when I first started I couldn't do more than 15 minutes, perhaps an hour when i was high because it was so interesting and the energies felt so much more intense high. Now i feel more intense energies sober. Start, and do what you can
Thanks for this post, very useful. How could the thread be mine, when there is no "I" to attribute it to >>No right or wrongs, all methods, all religions, all philosophies have their own methods to realization, but meditation as "sickness" is I believe mostly Buddhist. Actually it's something that appears in the higher end of all forms, including Hinduism. The source of Dzogchen is the Swat Valley, and it has (amongst others) Hindu roots. I realise the danger of posting it here and appearing to be saying 'don't meditate', but what I'm saying is don't JUST meditate. Of course anyone could become enlightened using just meditation alone, or beating an egg, but you've already covered those kinds of meditation approaches exceptionally well in your own posts. I'm just showing what happens beyond those teachings, or for the lucky ones, what happens even before they even begin to meditate. As Mahayana says, it would take many lifetimes using meditation to become enlightened, in other traditions using other methods it's possible in this lifetime. >>Meditation can and does become a crutch, agreed, but doesnt necessarily have to be dropped altogether until complete attainment - realization that goes beyond the meditation and requires no further meditation. This realization can be come to during and through meditation, as it did for various enlightened hindu beings, and as it incidentally did for the Buddha himself. No, you're right, it doesn't have to be dropped at all, everything is personal choice, but it's better if it is eventually - of course after having gone through it and gained the tools it offers. Many have become enlightened with meditation, but it's far more common to be enlightened through wisdom and insight. It isn't one is bad and the other good, or that one excludes the other, just that one is faster, and the other quickly becomes a hindrance. In classical texts Buddha's experience of enlightenment shows him going through the Dhyanas and entering then leaving non-conceptuality - but what's missing in this is the other side of Buddha's teachings on emptiness and the nature of reality that were central to his practice. He would certainly have been using method and wisdom, not just meditating as he rose through these stages. In the Sutra I posted, you'll see he says that his method involves no support, just an understanding of emptiness. It isn't because meditation becomes a crutch, but as I hoped to point out in my earlier post, that it relies on cause and effect, reification and conceptualisation, subtle desire, and worst of all, intent. These lower the chances of the 'states' we're looking for coming about. It doesn't stop them entirely, just reduces the possibility of them occurring quite substantially. The other problem is that meditation only offers brief experiences, and a state that you enter, then leave as your rise from meditation (though of course meditation's general effects are on-going). This is a real problem, because it means that using meditation will never allow you to rest in attainment, to experience the fruit of your practice and reach Satori. >> that the goal is attainment in non-meditation, how does one go about these is inexplicable, cannot be guided, only be made aware of. Only after satori either by personal understanding of the being who has attained satori, or by direct transmission from an attained master can these states be entered and permanently resided in, there is no guide long or comprehensive enough that is possible to direct one into these states I would have to disagree on it being inexplicable, as the whole of Dzogchen and its hundreds of texts is about that very thing, with full guidance on how to reach Kensho and then Satori. It's regarded as the 'completion stage' of meditation, the final destination and the ultimate approach by all traditions, and for very good reasons, as its early writers were all fully enlightened beings. Of course it's easier to understand if you have a living Master, but if you've already reached Kensho it's purely a matter of logic. The guidance within it (and to some extent Mahamudra) is very clear and written in far more accessible language than the earlier sutras, I think you'd enjoy it a lot. In fact, from what you've already posted I would say that you were ripe to move into it, it would add enormously to what you already know and help lift that other leg off the ground, I think very quickly >> Question, what do you mean by dropping meditation and carrying on the state of satori by wisdom itself? Waking dzogchen where in each moment you keep the realization and re-establish the truth of the wisdom? This is going to be hard to put over succinctly. The scheme I posted earlier, where method gives way to wisdom, is up to the tradition of Mahamudra, the stage prior to Dzogchen. Dzogchen begins with wisdom, then shows you how to move away beyond it, because, just like meditation, wisdom involves conceptualisation. Once wisdom of any kind, direct or intellectual, is reified, you immediately miss the actuality of what it is you're trying to reach and understanding becomes a barrier. The wisdom I was talking about in Dzogchen is the wisdom to go beyond wisdom, to be free, even from being free. As the Buddha said, to 'be without support'. In Dzogchen there is no cause and effect practice of any kind if you 'get it' straight away. If you don't, then you step back and go into whichever of the three main divisions will help you clear up whatever problems stopped your instant understanding, which may or may not contain cause and effect work. So, if a practitioner were to need to 're-establish' anything he would be doing a subsidiary practice, and not Dzogchen. You don't enter into it or ever leave it once you understand. Not everybody gets it straight away though, I certainly didn't. 15 years ago I was at a point just like you are now, with all the right ideas and experiences, but I was missing the point and just trying to accrue more and more methods and understanding from as many traditions as I could, thinking that would work - but in fact, once you 'know' (as you already do), it's simply a matter of applying what you know correctly. You are so close, and it's taking me all my strength not to leap on a plane and 'point the finger'. No matter what level anyone is at as they read this, you don't need to drop mediation, it has its own benefits, but you do need to add in further methods to help you along. >> Again, thank you for this addition, it is a very important part that was overseen in the first few posts, not only in the posting but I wasn't aware enough of it myself to realize its relevance and significance. Not at all Important as the higher traditions are, many people never even know of their existence, mainly because they were highly secret teachings until the early 70's that were only taught to those ready to understand them. When I first began there was next to nothing available commercially, and only a handful of texts circulating privately. Nowadays many of the key teachings can be found in any large bookstore. I'm enjoying this conversation immensely BTW, well worth coming back for MelT
Thanks, very useful. The dzogchen practice while it is living enlightenment, non-conceptual and without beginning or end, does not stay for some reason unless one is aware of it at all times. I find sometimes myself the empty, causeless, non-conceptual, stateless state brought through dzogchen, but when I go to sleep awareness ceases, thoughts and concepts come in the form of dreams, and upon waking one is no longer in the state of dzogchen. Also, sudden conflicts or emergencies or situations that traditionally uprise intense mortal fear can break the state - involuntarily - this is for the reason that all levels of the being and past conditioning as well as present have not abided in this non-conceptual realization yet. What is it then that finally allows one to embody and realize waking "realization" of the conceptless and unnameable, where the mind turns fully inwards and all inner chatter ceases? For people can go into great states of samadhi, may walk many days in dzogchen, but still not "get it". The answer in my opinion lies in the word "realization" itself. There are our various bodies subtle energy, physical, thought bundles, and ingrained samskarik beliefs/karmic imprints that transcend the experiences of a few days, weeks, months, even years. Even if one is in waking dzogchen for days together, the full "realization" does not occur because there is ingrained conditioning on these other, more long term, more deep rooted, more large-timeframe-related parts of ones being. Until these are "cleansed" and aligned with a few parts wisdom, a few parts samadhi experience that stays and cleanses and ingrains itself as one of the most intense experiences in ones life every time it occurs, a few parts waking dzogchen every day, a few parts seeing usual "problems" that one used to face dissolving as illusion due to being in waking dzogchen, then the full "realization" on all levels of the being where everything simultaneously has nothing left - no trauma, no deep rooted negative pasts, no nothing except the non-conceptual truth, enlightnment does not occur. Which is why I hold fast that insight, wisdom, practice - practice - pracitce with courage and steadfastness, dzogchen practice, sunnata practice, as well as deep meditation to cleanse samskaric imprints, trauma, and karma, that cleannses all that is not aligned with the truth at deeper rooted levels, is necessary and useful. The level of karmic "trauma" and deeply ingrained experiences, from this life and past ones, and beliefs that unconsciously do not align with the current experience of liberation from the invisible cage that one might be experiencing, are different for different people and one cannot know them consciously - hence one never knows when the final unclutching will occur. All one can do it keep practicing in all ways, including waking dzogchen and 'direct-to-the-heart of buddha nature' non-conceptual realization, and meditation to keep cleansing and sorting out the ingrained karmas and belief-bundles that are not aligned with and therefore deny final realization. Meditation is a key tool in this, for waking dzogchen puts the mind at rest and experiences the heart of buddha nature and allows for cleansing and experiential conditioning over time that validates the truth of the non-conceptual experience over and over again and prevents the accumulation of any more beliefs, but it does not do much for the deep rooted angsts and unconscious beliefs and all the deeper parts of the being that might not be aligned enough with wisdom and non-conceptual truth for the entire being to finally "let go" and surrender the identity completely to the non-conceptual experience. Incidentally, I can't help but wonder in awe, have "you" lost the "I"? Are you there, never to come back again? Is it all the non-conceptual, stateless-state for you, every day all the time without any break or pause, has the mind subsided permanently and with it ALL the illusions of problems? MeIT..have you realized fully? Are we in the presence of an enlightened being? EDIT: Also, could you share the sources of some quality dzogchen texts, or what they are called and where one can buy them? Would be very greatly appreciated, and again thanks for contributing so significantly to this thread.
what is satori? is it a gate to something? Every time I medicate, when my eyes are closed, thats when I can go to simple/no mind, just getting into medication. Thats when my eyes open up again, that when I lose the medication. Always have this problem. any tips?
Satori is a glimpse of the true nature - a glimpse of the true self - a glimpse of god, whatever you want to call it. It occurs when at some point, the self just gives itself up as it sees itself and its constant attempt to salvage an identity through thought and rationalization as useless. It is the unclutching of the self-imposed knot that binds us. Momentary liberation. You are very lucky if you can get into no mind every time you meditate. If your eyes open, let them open. Stay in no mind while they are open. Surrender control of your body.
when my eyes open, that when I lose the medication/ my mind/thinking comes back. If I just leave them open the I can't medicate but I can do no thinkin/mind or whatever. When I closed my eyes, I want stay closed but it won't. IDK...... I only can stay no mind for least 5 mins then thinking comes back... so really, no I'm not lucky
If your staying in no mind for 5 minutes you will be experiencing loss of the sense of self, loss of everything, and great bliss unlike anything ever you have experienced before. If you are in it for 5 minutes at a stretch you are at the meditative level of a highly practiced yogi who loses himself to bliss completely. Either this is happening, or you are not in no-mind. It takes alot of practice and awareness directed at observing ones thoughts to even be aware of most of what is occuring inside one's head. Most likely you are simply not yet aware of the thoughts you are experiencing, and are under the illusion that you are not thinking. "I can't meditate but i can do no thinking/mind". If you are meditating in attempt to go directly to no mind, it is formless meditation. In formless meditation, you do nothing. You simply sit. You cannot "do" "no mind", this is an act of the mind itself. No mind is the meditative state, if you are in no mind you are in meditation. Also, the term is 'meditation not medication
This is in no way a criticism, what you're practicing is very complex and you may not quite have the right idea of what Dzogchen requires and how it's 'reached'. It sounds like you're practising Rigpa, but without the support of Trekchod and Thodgal*. There is no 'state of Dzogchen' in Dzogchen itself, we're not seeking a single state, like permanent non-conceptuality, that's something that arises out of practise as a side effect, like bliss. But you don't become attached to it, bliss, or clarity, or nyams, because they're temporary states and obscurations. They're symptoms of mental pliancy, not the final goal. If you're practising in the right way you should be getting random blisses in and out of practice at present, are you seeing the non-conceptuality within them? I do agree with much of what you're saying above, and the methods you talk about are necessary as a preliminary stage before Mahamudra, but there is no purity to seek, nothing to cleanse 'self' of, no bad or good states to reach - all is equal and already perfected. What is there to move from, too? Nobody can move from their basic nature, it can't be entered or left, just experienced in the same way that BKA describes in his work on Taoism. Where is realisation and anyone to attain it? Without ever entering or leaving the natural state, where are the breaks in perception of it? I have to stress that some of the books available are extremely complex and will involve a full description of the preliminary practises of Dzogchen as well as the essentials, and it would be hard for someone to just pick up a book and grasp the full reach or meaning of the teachings as a whole through them. There are a number of different Dzogchen schools, but I would perhaps begin with looking at Nyingma. Each school is split into teachings under 3 different categories (Semde, Longde and Menngakde), each supplying a slightly different approach (and tools) to the same end. Although they are under 3 categories, you would eventually, or concurrently, practise all 3. All of these are available on Amazon or via Shambala Books. Any text or book by Longchen Rabjam (a 14thC lineage holder), such as: 'Precious Treasury of the Way of Abiding' 'A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission'. 'Old Man Basking in the Sun' Or the Semde root tantra, the 'Kunyed Gyalpo' - commonly called the 'Supreme Source' in its modern translations. Anything too by Garab Dorje. Some basic texts that may give a taste of both Mahamudra and Dzogchen can be found here: www.keithdowman.com. MelT *... If one does not first perfect Thekchod as an absolutely necessary prerequisite, then the Thodgal practice will be little better than watching a cinema show. Although one practices Thodgal not in the state of ordinary consciousness but in the state of contemplation, there is nevertheless the ever-present danger that one will become attached to the visions that arise. An excerpt from the Kunyed Gyalpo "...All the phenomena of existence are one single thing in the ultimate unborn dimension. Thus, in the state of Mind, there is no distinction between being or not being hindered...those who wish to relinquish hinderances and to accept the unhindred state do not concur with the true meaning...The aim of this teaching that the supreme source transmits is to clarify the meaning of wisdom that cannot be hindered; in fact, it abides in the self-arising essence that does not depend on causes or conditions. It is the state of knowledge that, once understood, brings one beyond affirming or refuting...Understanding the single fundamental nature, all is unified in the state of the supreme source, that is the Universal nature. So, whoever knows perfectly the supreme source also becomes expert in all infinite phenomena. Whoever acquires familiarty with my state acquires familiarity with the nature of everything..." (See my next posting regarding knowledge acquired in realisation) Sattvavajra, experience well! The conclusion of everything is understanding and acquiring familiarity with the essence of what perceives through sight and hearing. Whatever form the essence assumes, one understands its unborn nature. Undistracted presence beyond hope and fear* is the true state of knowledge..." * Hope of reaching realisation; fear of not already being in a natural state.
I guess I understand that the Buddhists call it "mantra", but from a leaning-Taoist perspective, it just seems like a "name". What is the point of "right labels"? And I mean this seriously... this thread has captivated my interest most definitely. Great words, Androgenicx and MelT.
The following is useful guidance to help test a student's level of 'attainment', showing the different ways that realisation can manifest. Note that the two realisations are roughly equivalent to Samprajnata, then Nirvikalpa Samadhi. This is written at the level of Mahamudra, hence it talks about merit, purity and faults in a relative way, though its definitions are still applicable later. "...The Questions of the Contemplative Nyimo Gomchen and the Responses of Sakya Pandita I reverently bow at the feet of the Holy Guru! The glorious Sakya Pandita wrote the following lines to Nyimo Gomchen, a contemplative filled with faith and spiritual aspiration, applying himself earnestly to his practice: In response to your questions: In realizing the nature of the mind (Realisation), is there a complete grasp of the meaning of the Three Collections of Teachings and the Four Classes of Tantras? There are two realizations: Realizing the emptiness of the mind, and realizing the union of apparent reality and the emptiness of mind. In realizing the emptiness of the mind, one does not fully grasp the meaning of the Three Collections of Teachings and the Four Classes of Tantras. With such realization one may fully comprehend the Cessation of a Listener (Shravaka), but since that cessation falls to the extreme of emptiness alone, one would not grasp the meaning of the Mahayana teachings. This is stated in all the Mahayana Sutras and Tantras. In realization of the union [of apparent reality and emptiness], there is no blemish of even the most subtle faults. It therefore holds the basis of morality, and the Collection of Vinaya is complete. Since the Heroic Samadhi and all other states of concentration arise [from such realization], the collection of Sutras is complete. Since it cognizes all knowable things, from form to the Omniscient Mind, the collection of Abhidharma is complete. And due to its comprehension of the special outer and inner dependently-related events, the Four Classes of Tantra are complete. Are the Three Jewels complete in one's own mind? In the mere emptiness of the mind and the understanding of that emptiness, the Three Jewels are not complete. In the union of the cognition and emptiness of the mind, the seeds of the Three Jewels are complete. If one properly realizes the meaning of that union, the Three Jewels are manifestly complete. Is a person who realizes the emptiness of the mind a Buddha? One who has realized emptiness alone is not a Buddha. If one comprehends all knowable things, one is fully enlightened. Furthermore, there are two modes of comprehension, the comprehension that there is no realization of an ultimately (i.e. inherently) existent phenomenon; and the comprehension of all distinct, conventionally existent phenomena. If one does not ascertain the mind, even though one accumulates merit, doesn't that [just] lead to temporary happiness? If one does not realize the mode of existence of the mind - the meaning of emptiness - one cannot attain the joy of Liberation by means of one's collection of merit. Although that may act as a cause for the joys up to the Peak of Cyclic Existence, the collection of merit is not perfected, And, on the other hand, if one does not have knowledge of knowable objects but only realization of the emptiness of the mind, how can one be a Buddha? If that were possible, there would be Buddhas in the Nirvana of Listeners, for which there is realization of emptiness alone, and there would also be Buddhas in empty space. But how could there be Buddhas there? Thus the assertion of all the Sutras and Tantras is that Buddhahood occurs through knowledge of all knowable objects and through realization that there is no inherent nature to be realized, i.e. knowing that of which there is nothing to be known. At what point does one have the certainty of attaining Enlightenment? Some people realize the emptiness of the mind alone, but have not perfected the qualities of the Method aspect of the training. Some have such qualities, but do not realize the emptiness of the mind. Some have both, but they are not able to guide their practice of the Method with their knowledge. Some have the other qualities, but since they lack the lineage of blessing, they are unable to generate the Clear Appearance. Thus, I fear that Buddhahood is far from them. Since I have a number of these attributes, I hope to attain Enlightenment, but not by the swift means. This concludes my responses to the questions of the contemplative Nyimo Gomchen. (This unedited translation was prepared under the guidance of Lama Tashi Namgyal by B. Alan Wallace (Gelong Jhampa Kelsang) at ©Sakya Thubten Kunga Choling in Victoria, B.C., August 1984).
Thanks alot for that man, a bit too much to take in right now haha but I'll definitely read up on it. +rep man
Very true Labels are mere conceptualisations, the root idea of Buddhism. Mantras play a part in some forms of Buddhism (and Hinduism), but not all. Everything is a relative stance until you 'get it'. MelT
Wow, I'm fundamentally in amazement with how few words can say so much. Such is the Way of things/dharmas, I suppose.
To me, the goal is to end the mind - to end all internal chatter permanently. Seeing things for their true emptiness, seeing ones own consciousness as innately empty, and the various other practices and everything are just pointers towards the space of permanent no mind, are just mild enactments of certain qualities that are experienced in enlightenment. All these concepts, everything, ceases upon final dropping of the thinking mind. No practice is required, there is no 'right seeing'. Right seeing automatically happens always, for 'wrong seeing', that is, at some level, all seeing that is seen through the lens of the mind, ceases to occur. I will use all wisdom, all practices, all meditations and non-meditations, buddhist practices, zen, dzogchen, hindu meditations, personal discoveries - everything, without following any one thing for all these are invented by humans and only point and guide towards the primordial state - but are not it in themselves, to fully at some point realize profoundly and finally the worthlessness of the mind, and the mind that is typing this and the mind that says that it is itself useless but doesn't KNOW it FULLY, WILL know it FULLY, and at this time will dissolve itself. Awesome posts, thanks for sharing. I have "A Scriptural Transmission" in the mail
You will love 'scriptural transmission' and I think that it will change your approach to what you do and make it far simpler. Basically, if (and you may not) you believe that all is unity/non-duality, then there are no better or worse states of mind. There's no need to purify the senses and sit permanently trying to find non-conceptuality to escape the human mind, as it too is non-dual, and just as much a part of greater reality as everything else is. Every thought and perception is ultimate nature, there is no need to seek it elsewhere other than in this very moment and in whatever state of mind you find yourself in now. Nothing is separate from it, nothing is different. As this is the case, it doesn't matter if you sing or dance or meditate, all is the natural condition. As you learn to rest in this, and simply remain in a natural state without doing, states of non-conceptuality, bliss, lucidity and the secret samadhi appear by themselves, without effort. You asked if I was permanently in a state of recognition, when there is nothing other than that state, and I neither enter it nor leave it. This is a brief extract from the Kunyed Gyalpo, written in the 'voice' of ultimate reality. The Kunyed Gyalpo (ch 45) Listen great being! My view is not something on which to meditate, because it concerns me, the source, and one cannot meditate on me. I that am the source, cannot become an object of meditation. By nature I abide in all, without ever being altered. The view of total perfection is not to be meditated on because the qualities of my mind are the extraordinary qualities of pure and total consciousness. Thus self-sacrifice is not necessary in seeking to realise them; being beyond causes and conditions. Whoever meditates on me will not meet me precisely on account of that meditation. As I am the manifestation of the fundamental nature, in my state, suffering does not arise (ie, it is empty), and consequently there is no need to eliminate it. As I am self-arising, unborn and indestructable, there is no need to block the senses tied to the interdependence of ignorance (ie, blocking or altering perceptions of samsaric reality). Being fundamentally pure by nature, the fundamental condition does not need to be purified. Being pure from the beginning, it does not need to be cleansed. Being ever self-perfected, there is no need of effort to attain it. Even seeking everywhere, nothing impure can be found: all is the essential condition that manifests in the form that is always good. From the beginning, the phenomena that appear as the objects of the senses, too, are this very nature and nothing else. Whoever tries to meditate and strives to realise this condition is like a blind man vainly pursuing the sky..." How is your bliss BTW? If you're practising Dzogchen it should be at a stage where it comes and goes quite frequently during the day whether you meditate or not. I would be very happy to show you how to turn its aspect of non-conceptuality into a useful access point? MelT
Yeah I have a feeling that I will love the book. Quite a penny it costs - I think its out of print, all I could find were a few used copies that amazon linked me to (not even sold directly by amazon), for 130$. As for the latter question about bliss - I don't believe that full dzogchen is in my life yet. What is there is an almost complete lack of negative emotion and "agitation" of the mind, calmness, sureness of step, alot more presence at all times next to no thought about the past, the immediate yesterday, very little imagination in attempt to control the future - the illusion of control is slowing dying. There is alot of peace, moments of bliss - during meditation the meditation just takes me over theres nothing to "do" anymore - i just sit and it washes over me - flows through me - "glimpses" in meditation are becoming much more frequent - experiences of physical esctacy, experiences where the surrender and "doing nothing" becomes so complete that something "opens up" inside of me and there is the greatest ease of existing, without any concept of unease. I realized only yesterday how profoundly tranquil and trusting my state has been. I made the choice to go back to india and leave possessions relationships and such and live ashram life, perhaps even wander india on foot with nothing more than a begging bowl. After I made this choice there has been little thought about it, little worry, little positive thought also. No thought, just preparation. Normally there would be periods where i wonder to myself "WTF am i doing???", where fear and unease would creep in, where i would fantasize positively about or worry negatively about what might happen. Even in such a "big" decision, there is complete ease and trust and relaxation and being present to where I am right now. As regards to waking "practice", I fall into states sometimes where nothing has any essential nature for labels are gone - i feel the same in the gym as i do outside in nature - spaceousness, no identification with the manifestations around me. When I fall into this state it usually stays the rest of the day without any effort or "practice" - when i sleep though I dream, thought exists, and I wake up out of this state - not at any unease or worry or agitation, but not in this subtle state anymore. Life is like a dream - but not in the usual sense where life IS like a dream because we go unconsciously through it and it doesn't..seem..real..but conscious and very real, but dreamlike in its ease. Dzogchen - from what ive read from you, I have not touched upon yet - perhaps some parts of it occasionally, but i don't think I "have" it. Youve opened my eyes to something possibly new and further, and im waiting eagerly on that book.
Excellent, I sincerely hope it helps in some way. I did something myself very similar regarding India, and stopped work for seven years to practice alone, gave up my possessions, etc. , and still many years on I own just a guitar, some books and a handful of clothes that you would probably think belonged to a hobo I still don't mix with people wherever possible, simply because they and I tend to share different goals and needs. Going away to travel is something that I think is very worthwhile. I hope you do it, though the commercial aspect of India now, as you know, is turning spirituality into commercialism, and even in Tibet it's strange to see monks with IPods and phones and very modern lives. But for me it came with its own problems, as does Kensho and Satori. I don't want to make this sound as though I am anything or anyone, I just really want to say it as something that you and others seeking the same things might consider, and TBH I'm not even certain as I'm writing how I'm going to say this. I'm sure this leaves me wide open to criticism, and I do understand that, but it has to be said. On the one hand, everything changes. Ego death is a poor description of what happens in terms of 'benefits and losses'. Who I am now is not the person I was before it all began, and I can hardly understand the person I used to be or how he thought. Deep Kensho/Satori brings deep compassion, bliss and contentment, and a continuing sense of connection. All wonderful and yummy, but the contentment is extremely deep, to the extent that you literally feel no different sitting in front of a TV, or on a rock in the middle of nowhere for five hours - desire and intent to be or do anything is entirely gone. You can do things perfectly well if you want to, but you feel no need. Whereas that might sound fine, it's not quite as fine for those around you. Imagine you live with someone and every time you ask them if they want tea or coffee, a walk to the shops or to dance naked in the garden, the answer is always, 'I don't mind'. After a few months it gets very wearing for them. After a few years it creates an actual rift, because they feel that you've lost something rather than gained it. Work suffers, because although you still have the power to create and imagine, the desire and need to do so is all but gone. Getting jobs in the real world becomes hard for you, and harder for the people you have to work with, because your reactions to them and your attempts at conversation seem strange and 'not normal'. If you can afford to live outside society for the rest of your life, then that's great, but eventually, most people have to come back and try to re-integrate so that they can continue to survive. 'Before enlightenment, wash pots, boil rice. After enlightenment, wash pots, boil rice', as they say. The return is far harder than the apparent escape, and it needs whoever does it to become an actor in almost every social situation - unable to relate to the world, but trying desperately to look and sound normal. Your relationships suffer too, because unless you're very lucky, your family and friends will not get where you're now coming from, and will really not care to listen as you try to explain what has happened. And understandably so. For most people 'enlightenment' is something strange and only reserved for Buddhas and gods, and the last thing they want to hear is that someone they've been married to for 20 years has now somehow disappeared and someone else has taken their place - to them it sounds almost like insanity. It took me over 8 years of fighting and acting to get to a point where I could work again, albeit from home, and posting here on GC a couple of years ago was only a result of years of trying to re-build a personna. The protection of anonymity here is useful, and a handy place to reclaim lost social skills Much as I like who 'I' am now, being that person does not fit well with today's western society (and not so much any more in the East either nowadays). Hardly anyone knows about realisation, hardly anyone cares, why should they? So, the point of this ramble is just to set people thinking about what they might do if they really do reach any kind of attainment? Suppose you became realised this second, what would your next steps be? Would you rush out and teach, get disciples, write and spread the word, or live in an Ashram for the rest of your life in peace and tranquility? All of these choices present problems. How are you going to prove you're realised to your 'followers' and sound any less trite than the hundreds of others who falsely claim it? Have you got the money or opportunity to live in seclusion for the rest of your life? Would it be a waste of your precious life to do this? And, as I said above, you would feel exactly the same in an ashram as on a rock in a park, so staying permanently in one afterwards is pointless unless you're just looking for a free ride. It doesn't make anyone special or raise their heads above the parapet of normal life to be realised. To be seen as 'special' and get 'followers' requires much self-promotion, books, tours and a manager - and TBH, the last thing that you want after such realisation is anything remotely like that, it becomes so meaningless that anyone who is truly realised would even entertain it, they have no desire or intent to live like that. There are tens of enlightened and fully enightenend people in the world today, and at least two on GC have certainly reached Kensho themselves. A handful more here have got such a fine grasp on ultimate reality that if they were to take just one more simple step, Kensho would not be too far away. But none of it has any meaning at all for the world at large, just for we who experience it. An open question to all seekers: Which rock will you choose to sit on? Will it be the same rock as before you began? MelT
Its funny how the tradition is different between many other enlightenment thoughts, especially in Hinduism, and in Zen. Indeed, there is no phenomenal god-like occuring upon and after enlightenment as most expect - "Before enlightenment boil water cook rice, after enlightenment boil water cook rice" is certainly more accurate - but given the nature of the change what usually occurs if utter realization is achieved is the spontaneous urge to help and guide others to this awakening occurs - and this is, in different ways - small and large - might be just one zen master living quietly with a handful of pupils or something like maharshi, the buddha, or the living nithyananda where the calling really reaches out to thousands of people. There is nothing left at all to care about in the slightest, not the self not the body not ones future not anything. In such a space all that is left is compassion and bliss - and the transmission of this bliss to everyone that is encountered. Enlightened beings of the past have led and taught out of spontaneous unfoldment, not after sitting and thinking about what to do next - this would invalidate their "enlightenment" itself. Nothing matters, these questions don't even arise. There are a few indications of Enlightenment that only the person can know - and I believe and agree with it - 1) There is no more question "am I enlightened" or not, the question cannot arise 2) and this is important, ALL inner chatter permanently ceases. The brain permanently resides in a meditative theta state. All living thereon forth occurs as spontaneous enactment of calling and vision - thought does not occur any more. There is no internal chattering at all - the mind has ceased completely. 3) not only does the ego death occur, the physical consciousness and its boundaries change. The distinction of "me" and "that" or "me" and "you" that separates objects and people from yourself dies. Not intellectually, not 3/4th the way, completely and permanently. If these have not occurred, I believe it is safe to say that one is not fully enlightened yet, and that any questions or apprehensions regarding the state are unimportant then. Besides, if one was fully enlightened, one would not ask "is it a trade off, is it something you are ready for". If one is enlightened, those that may be guided by your hand will believe in you 100%, there is no convincing needed. If one feels the need to convince, enlightenment has not occured, there is still mild inner chatter and identity. How do I plan on separating the frauds? You cant, not truly, you never can, thats just how it is. Ive been in the presence of one, ive seen him enough to know intuitively that he has attained, and his manner of talking, his body language forever embodies it without slip. Besides, the goal is not to find an enlightenened being, but to become enlightened myself. All with even some progress can aid in this path. I have an inner vision of after awhile at the ashram wandering the country on foot as a begging monk. The search is within and ultimately for myself, the others are for guidance - if the first being to attain could come upon it himself, I am certain I can too. "If you became enlightened this second, what would your next step be" - this is imagination into the future, not grounding in the present - this is a product of inner chatter and is as such empty and irrelevant. After enlightenment, enlightenment will spontaneously do what is to be done. Sitting around and planning before it is both futile - as life never can be controlled; all thought about the future is the illusion of control. There is no "choosing" after enlightenment, for there are no options from the arise of inner chatter to choose from. Life becomes just one spontaneous unfoldment after the other. To worry or have reservations about anything related to enlightenment is inner chatter and is irrelevant. Realize that even the deepest of Kensho is still the mind experiencing the kensho, the mind coming inches away from the truth. Enlightenment IS the the truth, not the mind experiencing the truth, not the experience of the truth. It is full realization and embodiment of the truth - there is noone left to "experience" it. While kensho might seem like it can't go much further and is already so blissful, it is considered not to be even 0.1% of the full experience when it occurs. It is like the difference between drinking from the ocean of god-nectar, and jumping in it and losing onesself totally in it. Kensho, while closest to enlightenment, is still not close to enlightenment at all. Question: "Which rock will you choose to sit on? Will it be the same rock as before you began? MelT " Answer: "I do not know, all speculation is baseless thought and imagination, all speculation is from this current conditioning, self, and mind, that will no longer be there after the jump has occured. Who am I to try to make these choices, when, almost literally speaking, it is someone else who will be living the life in this body after it has occured? It will be his choice, not mine - Androgenicx" Much thanks for your last post.