i thought about makin a thread about my point on definitions being almost synonymous, if not analagous to my point on perspectives... but instead, i'm keepin it short n sweet to send out this probe. (and mainly because i cant be bothered typing out for the second time what i just did when winxp crashed unexpectedly)
Hey, I don't enjoy user-specific threads that much. Besides, don't we need to define "hung up" in order to accurately assess whether or not a Grasscitizen is? Definitions are exceedingly important. For example, what if the idea of a weed high wasn't defined? Man, people would think all sorts of things could happen under the influence of marijuana... So silly to leave all those possibilities open. People might even have varying experiences if that happened. Better to just define what a "high" is, and then make sure that everyone's experiences fit the definition. If they don't, let's make things more clear for people by creating even more names for different conditions. I think we should create a "Useful for the Masses But Limiting Definitions" thread.
Because if people understand different things for the same word it makes it a thousand times harder to make yourself understood?
Wow! What a cool thread! But please make sure your premise is right. MelT isn't hung up on defnitions, Buddhism and all eastern ism's of their ilk are the ones saying what is real and not. Don't shoot the messenger. It's a very poor argument to aim your disappointment at me rather than the people - such as Buddha - who created the definitions? Not MelT's ideas or definitions, but those from people who know of these things. Are you saying Buddha was wrong Digit? Or any of the other people in the posts I mention above? Where they really all wrong and you are right? Saying that I personally am 'bad' because I know the definitions of enlightenment and have posted them here is a bit weak. I''m very happy for people to believe whatever they want, but if you call yourself 'realised' and there is only one definition. Make up another by all means, but it wont be the same event as everyone else's - and if you don't care there's not a problem. I write here not for people who've already decided what they are without finding out more, but for the people who will have real experiences, or who are interested in this as a subject. BUT, all that aside. You have had glimpses of realisation, I know you have because you've talked about them here. They weren't the full deal from what you've said, but obviously you haven't possibly said everything about what you've experienced in your life. If you have more, anything regarding the nature of reality that came out of the event as key, then talk about it. But anyway, please continue, this is cool MelT
I don't think I read the thread(s?) that prompted this this one, so I know not of what I speak. The title makes me want to respond. Details are always of paramount importance. In the words of Edgar Allen Poe, "For my own part, I have never had a thought that I could not put down in words with even more distinctness than that which I concieved it."
A brief synopsis: Man says what definition of enlightenment is according to the eastern traditions who invented meditation and the term 'enlightenment' itself. All of those people who suddenly find that the experience they've had that they'd always thought was enlightenment, but wasn't, decide that it's all vey unfair and lash out at the messenger in a fit of pique. I think that's about it MelT
Fair enough summation. Poor MelT. At least his ego isn't bothered by it since he doesn't have one anymore.
I know this is sarcasm, but now you've actually got it. 'Poor' Melt can debate because it never matters what the outcome is, I don't care if I win or lose, all I'm concerned with is that those who are interested in such things have access to more facts than usually appear on forums like these. I will argue for and against christianity or anything else simply based on the desire for the facts to be known. If anyone shows me proof that those I speak for (the point that most seem to be missing) are wrong then that's great, because it all leads to a greater truth, and I will instantly change tack to support them. Truth, not ego. MelT
haha Right. And why do you think I'm so supportive of continuing these threads with you? Of course you understand I get where you're coming from. The sarcasm is not mean-spirited. I have great respect for you and all of the other Grasscitizens who actually can have a pleasant, thought-provoking discussion, especially in the Spirituality & Religion section of the forum. But you will not see proof of anything, because proof requires something being obvious, and obvious is just another adjective which means it's based on perception. And something Universal doesn't need proof because it would already "know" the Truth.
See now we're getting down to it, this is good But to continue: 'proof' isn't what is required to show enlightenment, just a simple statement about the realisation that has been reached. A couple of words, not anythng deeply complex. As I've said to Zylark, there is no such proof that these events are real in any way, but for it to be realisation there needs to be that gaining of specific knowledge. The thing is that it is obvious, stunningly so, and so central to the event that it's possibly the first words that anyone will use when trying to describe it. MelT
Someone Enlightened, though, would be creative. Hopefully you couldn't predict what he/she/it was going to say if they were truly Enlightened. Alright, man, well, I'm about to hit the hay. I may see you all here again in 7 or 8 hours. Have a great day!
I can't predict anything, almost every event is individual and each person may say differing things about it. But i can certainly, definitely, indisuptably say what they would say at some point about the core of the event. You too See you...uhhh, I suppose about now if you've already gone MelT
i like "man". for years i never called anyone anything else. i'm still gonna poke melt alot more to take more looks at himself. the selfproclamations just dont seem to tally with actions. but who am i to talk... the cheek i come out with, the antagonisms, the debate stiring and controversy... doesnt paint an accurate picture of me either. i suppose thats the deal with who we are, distinct from the roles we play. now this isnt aimed at anyone in particular (oh why do i even need to point this out, we should all be able to learn lessons for ourselves from any conversation between anyone, it simply shouldnt matter who the intended audience is!)... i've noticed alot of cloggage* around here of recent. alot of brilliant shining jewels of folks who need to pull themselves away from their forum addiction, which, i know isnt as likely to happen when you dont realise thats what you have, or are in denial about it, and forum addiction or not, need to go do a disk cleanup and defrag for a while... a.k.a meditate! ("conscious sleep") cos sleep ("unconscious meditation") just dont seem to be cuttin the mustard. the most recurring feature of the great cosmic joke to me is that the more you need meditation, the less likely you are to realise and the less likely to go meditate! *my preffered term for what happens through the chaos and hubris of life to our etheric nadis [energy channels], and resultantly our physiology and attitude/temprament, "wellbeing & efficacy" basically.
Uhhhhh...so skilled that I'm not aware of a threat, let alone having deflected it. My powers are waning grasshopper, please, do tell? MelT
oh really? looked pretty convincingly like many lightly veiled attempts at slights against me from a bruised self image from one perceived slight. ... such is the way of the cellular and mamilian. (^ not to be taken out of context. it is meant only to be understood by those who have either read the related book, or watched either http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8689261981090121097 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-567329528148516232 and/or http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6681910439634411366 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=556117542011883927 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5102269643236445484 i hope i got those links right. two talks, the first in two parts, the second in three parts.)
Poke away Mate, I welcome it But you must appreciate that trying to make it about me isn't going to work? What 'I' proclaim here is no more than others have over the centuries. The idea too that we can't talk about reality and realisation, is still wrong, there really is no 'don't talk about it' clause that eveyone's meant to adhere to. Buddha proclaimed his enlightenment on the night of its occurrence. Hui Neng immediately. There are no conventions. There is nothing that can be disturbed, or any sanctity to be broken. If you mean it's wrong for anyone to say that they're enlightened? In a way you're right. In some forms you might indirectly proclaim it and hope others notice. In others you would not use the term 'becoming enlightened' at all, because the idea of achievement is an error. It's impossible to 're-become' what you already are. Within different Buddhist groups there can be differing attitudes towrds it, yes. But that aside, if I were a Hindu I would probably have asserted myself in a temple without shame. There are no conventions at all, it's just it's not really cool to say 'hey guys, now I'm enlightened and I've got really wise and good and I'm now going to talk continually in clever metaphor, because us enlightened dudes do that'cha know...' That's a bad 'coming out'. I really hope I didn't come across that way. I'm uneducated, with no wisdom, only knowledge. I have moments of extreme stupidity and accidental callousness, I am no more spiritually advanced than my cat. I am not more because of of enlightenment, 'I' am less. And why did I choose to talk about it here? Because it might help someone - and here it can't be seen as being for the sake of ego or self-furtherment. Only two people here know who I am (you're one of them), the rest don't give a rat's ass. It's not exactly going large, is it? I never spoke about it for years to anyone, offline or on about this. In my personal life only four people (including my wife) know anything about it. I'm not quite at the stage of getting myself a website and offering healings at $50 a pop, or my book about how I came to be the 'wonderful' being I now am. If I'm doing all this for the sake of ego I'm not really doing it very well, am I? I expect to get flack here, and I support it, because as skeptic for most of my life I argued very passionately against the validity of these experiences for a very long time and it was only through debate that I came to the path at all. I'm here to be prodded by you, in the hope that what comes out of this encourages people to see enlightenment as something that isn't just a funny eastern legend, but a real, definable state that has content with direct meaning for everyone. MelT