Both those studies, by their own admission, are studies of the psychological effect of prayer. Neither claim to have any proof that prayer has a legitimate scientific physical effect. Like, Liquidtruth alluded to, prayer is simply a comforting thought that might very well seem to make people happier, more humble and accepting of their condition... not necessarily better off physically or in reality. It's comparing apples to oranges. Which of course is a Logical Fallacy... as was the entire rest of your post, hence my non-reply.
Not to take away from what anyone on this thread is saying. There are some terribly smart people making some great points and I think its a credit to the video on some level that it was able to produce such responses. And not to say that anyone has forgotten this on this thread but... I smoked out Atheists, Christians, Buddhists, Jews, Rastas, Hindus, New Age-ies, Old Hippies, people whose entire lives were devoted to God and people who could care less and I've enjoyed my time with all of them. No matter how you relate to reality, we are all stuck in it so why all this fussing and fighting. To my brothers and sisters out there of all distinctions, lets just get a bong. Come on, lets remember we've all been touched by an angel, her name is Mary Jane.
You make a good point and bring up an even better one... Q: What type of leaders have convinced the entire world that Cannabis is bad? A: Religious leaders. The Church's in this Country have the greatest affect on whether or not people consume Cannabis. They tell you how to be a moral person. Go figure that the teachings often evolve to fit the laws. It's Religion, and religious political issues that are the problem... at least in our time. It's all about fear-mongering... and boy are they good at it. Welcome to the twilight zone.
[quote name='Perpetual Burn'] Q: What type of leaders have convinced the entire world that Cannabis is bad? A: Religious leaders. quote] Agree to an extent, I've met religious leaders that encouraged marijuana especially in conjunction with religious practice and dialogue and I've met more that feel indifferently (in a religious sense) to marijuana. Historically in the west, you are absolutely correct but I mean...how effective have they been? I smoke everyday, never been harassed by any sort of real authority about it. Yeah, people get rolled on and yeah, you can take the source of that to religious thought in the 400's in the west but for all the haters, there are plenty of smokers. Always have been. I think you bring up a point at least worth thinking about since this forum is about whether or not that which we call God (which is a theory in totality, in the entire-ness of everything) is personally responive to the thoughts/words/actions of concious beings within the universe. We could make it more specific but I think this suffices for my point. If religious leaders; who are arguably hold the most power amongst a large, illiterate mass easily persuaded by mob mentality while still make up the most successful species on the planet; has denounced, fought against, burnt, damned, critized, produced propoganda and waged war against; another immobile, not visibly concious species (Cannabis) and yet ultimately has failed in hindering the production, distribution, possession, or popularity of the species for coming up on 2 millinnea while countless other less antagonist species to their cause have gone by the way side AND while they have all the resources any population in the entire world could possibly have... AND this taken into consideration after 99.99% of all the species (which may have included countless unknown psychoactive plants, herbs, fungi, animals, who knows) that have ever been found on this planet are extinct. Yet some how, our stubborn lovely little weed lives on Why, is that coincidence? Sometimes I wonder if its not a miracle that we still have our sweet jane.
It could mean the human beings are meant to consume cannabis. Or of course, the Devil could have put it here to trick us. It's a good thing for the Devil Theory that you are not allowed to question these beliefs as they automatically make one an evil person.
How each Bible should be printed and published. Prayer is covered somewhere in there, and the many lies propagated about it. /end thread
some of you are absolutely right. sometimes God doesnt do exactly what we ask Him. rather, He exceeds our expectations. "Is there anyone among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you then, although you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!" Matthew 7:9-7:12
I guess noone has responded to my comment on this post. It seems instead of dealing with the topic directly, some people are going off on random tangents.
To make you happy (which is very important to me): Okay then, let's apply some critical thinking Of course, but a common argument is theological debate is that prayer is proof of God, this video intends to refute it. Really? What about the Tower of Babel? Among many other examples. I would also like to see evidence of this. I eagerly await this. Because it smells like handwaving Right, so free will doesn't exist? I thought free will was a big part of Christianity. How can anybody be responsible for their actions then if God is controlling us? I don't know who was claiming that one. Odd that you are dwelling on it. The author attempts to illustrate it, that even sincere prayer cannot be proved to work once critical thought is applied. Why would god mind so much anyways? Why would he give the individual praying some proof so that they can believer in him? See, that's just more handwaving. A dogmatic conviction, even if you call it "knowledge of in your heart" is still just a dogmatic conviction without any evidence. The word is spelt "scarious" not "scurrious" You have yet to prove that it doesn't. I don't see how brainwashing comes into it -- it's simply critical thinking applied to theology. I find that 'brainwashing' is a term used all-to-liberally to describe the actions or thoughts that one does not agree with, but cannot reasonably refute. But see that's the argument. You argue the milkjug can't do anything because it's just a milkjug. I want you to prove that. They are saying that God can't respond to prayers, because in fact God does not exist. It's an analogy.
And you haven't contributed anything relevant in any of the threads you've posted in, quit pouting. Damn you Rasta, you got to me before I could remember where I hosted that pic.. +rep
rasta man: What I mean when I say he works through natural events is that it will be supernatural in origin, but will be manifested through nature in a way that fulfills his perogatives. Much of God's workings is done in the hearts of men, he turns them where they go. Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps. Proverbs 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD. Yes free will exists, but God hardens people's hearts who choose to harden their hearts..he gives them what they chose. If people choose the devil, they God gives them over to the devil. Of course we don't have unlimited free will, I think if many did they would try to escape the minds God has given them, or try to overcome the natural laws of the universe etc. There are numerous verses that show this in action in the bible. How can he prove it doesn't work. He can't prove prayer to God doesn't work unless noone ever received the things they prayed for, and everyone praying was fulfilling the requirements of obedience etc,, in order for it to be given to them. The point of the video was to prove that God is not real. It was trying to invalidate God's existence through some scurrious prayer excercise. It is delusional propoganda, very ironic of the very brainwashing the author ettempts to "expose". God minds because he loves us and he created us in Love to be children. He wants to have a relationship with us and wants us to trust that he is faithful and will provide for our needs. The evidence is inside, it can't be seen, but it's there, stronger than any other proof. If you choose to deny it's existence, it's only your own denial. It's not dogmatic handwaving, it's fully evidenct within us and in the things God has created. It's also a doctrine that's fully supported by scripture. No that's not the word I was trying to say. I can't find it right now. The video rather, in no way proved that it is the same. All it showed was that praying to a milk jug doesn't work, which is obvious. It brainwishing because the video sit there in front of this milk jug for several minutes, the purpose being to convince you that God is like a milkjug. I can't prove it to anyone. You can only prove it to yourself. Like it says in Gods Word, If you are wise, you are wise for yourself, and if you are a fool you alone will pay for it. You want me to prove that a milkjug can't answer your prayers?.... This is where things turn silly and I don't involve myself with those kind of arguments. And how do they "prove" that God does not exist? By argueing that God does not answer prayers. But like I said, he does answer prayers and you don't prove God by prayers.
That quote can be viewed in a few ways... But the way you are spinning it, that still sounds like God is in control and we are just puppets who think we can do something of our own will. "the Lord directeth his steps" How can we devise a way but be directed? Is "our way", really "His way"- yet we don't even realize it? How can God be in control but us have free will? The answer is simple, #1 We have no free will, #2 God doesn't exist, or #3 God is actually us. Take your pick we can't prove it either way. Whatever seems to make the most sense is fine, just don't try to push it as fact on anyone or it will be dismissed as valid but not fact. But this quote, in the way you put it- sounds like God is in control directing the steps, yet how can we devise the way if He is directing the steps? Free will is control over your life. If God is in control, we do not have free will. (assuming God is seperate from us) I chose option #3, the first two scare me. *I still pray and talk to what I feel is God, just not in an outside of me sense. I see Him as more a highly evolved version of myself (and us) -The God of Abraham could have existed back in the day though I don't discredit the Bible, just religious/atheist practices that don't allow for freedom of thought. (such as this guy trying to get you to see it his way)
Right, so just so we understand eachother; God kills hundreds of millions of innocent people via natural disasters, disease, and accidents. Oh and you have no shown me any evidence that "God makes things happen through natural events". It's still handwaving as far as I'm concerned. So right here, you say that God decides what any given person will do. This is determinism. In the next quote you directly contradict yourself. This is circular logic, it is a logical fallacy; null argument. At this point, I have NO idea what you're talking about. Do you know what free will is? Well firstly, that makes God seem very vain and egomanicial, that he will on be nice to those who are fruitlessly obedient. If that is truly the nature of god, than he is a jerk and I'll have nothing to do with him, IF HE WAS REAL. Anyways, The author is basically illustrating a very simple concept about prayer. There prayer is based on one logical fallacy; post hoc ergo propter hoc. And that there is zero evidence to the contrary. Read about it. More or less, for the sake of argument, I'll agree. For the second time; there is no such word a "scurrious" I have no idea what you're trying to say anymore. And it was no real exercise involved, it was an analogy illustrating the faulty logic of prayer. And then I said: "I find that 'brainwashing' is a term used all-to-liberally to describe the actions or thoughts that one does not agree with, but cannot reasonably refute." You have failed to prove a single thing. It is not delusional, this person is basing their beliefs and opinions on well-founded logic, reason and empirical evidence. If you have some to the contrary, please share it with the rest of the scientific world. So he gave us the sense of logic, reason and the ability to critical think, yet he wishes us to deny all those sense, deny our ability to rationalize and make reasonable inferences about our Universe and to believe in something for which he provides zero evidence for? Smells like a big cop-out to me. Yes, blind dogmatic convictions are certainly STRONGER than proof, but they aren't valid in the realm of critical thinking, logic and reason or science. By your own definition, it is not evidence, it is the opposite of evidence; it is a conviction. Don't use deceptive misnomers to help you illustrate something you can't reason. Stop using the word and any conjugation of the word "evidence" please, because you have none. It is a deceptive misnomer. Besides, it's pretty so throughly proven that scripture is bunk. You can't use scripture to validate the convictions you got FROM scripture. It's circular logic again. No falsifiability exists, that's why religion is a problem. Okay, then please stop using made-up words. It's very exoblantric of you. Yes it did, using colourful analogy it illustrated the ad hoc ergo propter hoc nature of both. Noting that there is zero evidence to the contrary. Yes, I could say the same thing about the mythology of the magic man in the sky. Of course prayer won't work, it's obvious he's just an invention of human superstition. You haven't proved that wrong yet. Yes, because as we all know, milk jugs are a commonly used item in the arsenal of brainwashing. No, it's not. Like YOU said before, it's attempting to prove that God doesn't exist. Like I said before, it's attempting to point out the fallacious logic of prayer. Haha yes, only I can prove it to myself, if I work toward being submissive to an idea of god, abandon my critical thinking and stop asking all these damn questions! Thinking gets in the way of that faith thing. If God DID grant prayers, than it would extremely easy to prove to the scientific community. But alas, there is no evidence. and we are to believe that although God endowed us with these abilities to reasonably question things - he wants us to forgo them. Good words, you should apply it to your world view, instead of subscribing to dogmatic convictions without empirical evidence. No, THAT is a cop-out. It's legitimate based on what you're asking ME to believe. The whole magic invisible man in the sky dealy. Why not? Like i said before, If God did answer prayers, it would be awfully obvious to the scientific community -- but it is not; most likely because God doesn't exist, and the conclusion that prayer works is based on fallacious logic.
I am not agree with you. Prayer works. It is talking with and learning from God. It can include praise and worship as well as petition. It helps us to become more attuned to God's voice in our life.
You must believe in god if you think a banned user in a 9 year old thread is going to reply to you....