Ok so I have noticed my well water raises in ph this time of year due to higher levels of calcium carbonate. I have some plants that are showing signs of calcium and magnesium lockout. I want to give them calmag (mine consist of calcium nitrate and acetate, and magnesium sulfate and acetate) but am worried of continues problems due to the already high levels of calcium carbonate. I am unable to get a filter due to the enormous size of grow and amount of water used daily in 4 different areas of my property. Is there a way to change the makeup of calcium carbonate to be plant suluble? Can I just add my calmag and lower the ph of my water? Kinda a advanced topic but hopefully someone has a cure. My water right now as is has a ph of 7.9-8.2 and a ppm of 170-200 depending on time of day and water level of well. Any advice greatly appreciated. Thank you!
How long has your pH been that high? Google that same question and take the time to read through the web sites that come up. I did and there are hundreds talking about that subject. I've never dealt with that exact problem so I'm no help, but you can find anything on google. LOL I'm sure some of the others with some experience with this will chime in in time. Hope you get it straightened out. We have a well that was ruined by blasting at a local coal mine. The mine paid to have city water run to our house, but we plan on getting the well back up and going. We'll have to invest in a filtration system for it, but it will pay for itself in a short time since we have such high water rates here in the community that I live. Nothing like a drink of good well water!! TWW
About 2 weeks. It happens every year. I think it's somthing to do with the trees losing leaves and acorns because when they have nothing left the ph adjust itself back to 7.0-7.3 almost overnight. I looked all through Google today before I watered them and did not find anything useful to solve my problem. Only things about pool ph and drinking water ph how to change ect.. doesn't help me when water for plants is so much different. I endup up just flushing them with epsom salt and humic acid. I was going to use cal mag but my humic acid sais not to use with high calcium fertilizer. I figured it might cancel the calcium carbonate out since it's not plant edible and the epsom salt would allow them to at least uptake the magnesium sulfate. The extra h20 might help as well. Just worried because calcium carbonate is a salt crystal from what I understand and think is my lockout problem. Fighting fire with fire I guess. I have some pictures after watering. They perked up after the flush but I won't know much for the next few days. Let me know what you think. Almost forgot. My flush was 240-260 ppm 5.9-6.2 ph. I made 3 250 gallon tanks to flush and had slighter different phs to see what would work best. Runoff for raised beds was between 6.7-7.0. It seems to be affecting my seeds (about 75% off them, other 25% look great) the red purple stem on leaf is heriditary so most of the phenos had that since started. My Barry whites get it the worse and my blue dream. I have another garden with blue dream that are outdoor in smart pots and they seem unaffected. Just my depth gardens and plants directly in ground. I have cropped once to twice on the depths this year and tried amending the soil before replanting so possible salt buildup maybe in those and the other plants in ground really have no drainage in way. Just a thought though.. something caused it lol. Pictures will hopefully help. Thanks for checking it out! Any advice glad accepted.
It seems highly unlikely that "calcium carbonate" in your well water is causing you problems. While this terminology is commonly used by water testing companies to describe water alkalinity, it is a bit misleading. Calcium carbonate is highly INSOLUBLE in water, and requires microbially produced acids in order to make it soluble (ca++ and co3-- ions in solution). Organic gardeners use materials (like oyster shell flower, crab shell meal, and vermicompost) that contain calcium carbonate in them in order to buffer pH fluctuations as material breaks down in the soil and plant root nutrient ion exchange invariably drives soil pH down over time. Judging by the pH and TDS of your water, it is highly likely that your water contains appreciable amounts of CARBONATES/BICARBONATES, or less likely, HYDROXIDES. It all really depends on the chemical makeup of the rock strata that your well water travels through. All three of these chemicals are soluble ions that react quite readily with free hydrogen in the soil solution, which ultimately drives soil pH up. High soil pH then allows for calcium and magnesium to react with any/all of the aforementioned anions, “locking†them up into insoluble compounds that do not dissolve readily in water, and are therefore unavailable for plant adsorption. Without soil and water analysis, I'm really only making an educated guess here. But my premise is guided by having my own soils and water tested. The alkalinity of my own well water is totally contained by bicarbonate, at 258 ppm/TDS out of 335, pH 8.07. I grow indoors, so I can't say with 100% certainty whether or not this will work for you (without knowing anything about the soil that you're growing in), but I've been experiencing really great results by treating my water with citric acid prior to use. If you neutralize the soluble “bases†in your water before using it, they are no longer able to react with free hydrogen, calcium, or magnesium in the soil solution. Over time you'll watch the overall pH of your soil go down. You might have to start a little lower for correction (like pH 5.8), and may see some adverse reaction from some of your plants. It's been my experience that different cultivars react differently to these adjustments. Looks like you've quite the sizeable grow going on there! It looks good! For your situation, you might want to look into setting up some kind of injection system to input acid into your water lines as it's flowing, and adjusted seasonally as needed. These are commonly used in greenhouse production setups. And I wanted to point out that I utilized citric acid to bring pH down because I grow in very rich organic soil. Citric acid doesn't add any extra soluble nute's to the soil solution like the grand majority of “pH down†solutions do. If you're utilizing liquid chemical fertilizers to feed your plants, you can tweak your recipe to deal with anything extra added to the soil by utilizing a product other than citric acid. You might find this PDF helpful, if not at the very least interesting. While it's main focus is greenhouse production (which soils may or may not vary from yours), it does contain quite a bit of what I've found to be VERY useful information when it comes to soil chemistry and how alkalinity affects nutrient ion adsorption/availability. View attachment water-considerations-for-container-production-of-plants.pdf HTH
Waktoo thank you for taking the time and reading my post. I am going to give that a go tomorrow. The greenhouses, which have been affected most are happy frog for 3 of them and ocean forest for the other 4. I have already cropped once this summer out of them and was short handed to add the last 4 inches of soil to my raised beds for the second go around. I am having my water tested. Took in 2 samples one was right when we'll pump turned on and the other at the end before pump shuts off. When it does get the bottom the wayer has a blue grey cloudy look to it and not really a sulfur smell but kind of metallic smell in a way. I will have more info on my water in the next day or two. You seem to have have a good understanding of water and if you don't mind I'd like to pick your brain for a second. When I did my "flush" with humic acid and epsom salt my ph actually went up a point or two. I have not done research but hence the name humic acid I was expecting the water ph to go down. Any thoughts? Might be a dumb question but have not had a minute to sit down and look it up. I'm actually in the grocery store parking lot right now lol. Can I pick up some lemon juice for my citric acid? I assume so 100% but I tend to be doing what i tell all my employees not to do and over thinking this way to much . My number one rule is kiss (keep it simple stupid ) but rules are meant to be broken to grow the best consistently. Also do you agree is a calcium magnesium possible iron lock by the pictures? I know some plants show a little different than others but there are 32 phenos of this seed so they are going to react differently to lock in my opinion. Different eyes though see different things. Thank you again though! Everyone on my ranch thinks I'm crazy when I start getting into the science behind the plant
Bro! My most humble apologies. I sent you the wrong PDF. They're from the same university, and are very similar in content. 'Cept this one deals with alkaline irrigation water in more detail... View attachment alkalinity-control-for-irrigation-water-used-in-nurseries-and-greenhouses.pdf Soil chemistry is a very complex subject/field. Soooo many different chemical reactions are taking place at a molecular level and at speeds that measure in the milli/micro/nano seconds. I am not a soil chemist. It's just a hobby of mine. A very serious hobby... Just an educated guess here, but the Epsom salts might have something to do with your pH going up after using it. Not to mention whatever it is that's in your water that is acting as a liming agent. Magnesium sulfate is highly soluble in water. When mixed with water, it creates magnesium (++) and sulfate (--) ions in solution. Sulfate ions will react readily with two free hydrogen in solution, creating sulfuric acid in the process. I know, you're going “but that's an ACID!â€. Like I said, it's complex. Sometimes when something is classified as an acid, it doesn't really provide hydrogen ions straight off the bat. What makes it an acid is the hydrogen ions produced when it REACTS with something. Citric acid (C6H8O7) is a perfect example. Some acids require particular compounds in order to react and release hydrogen into the soil solution. Citric acid is also highly soluble in water. When hydrolyzed (reacts with water), it releases three hydrogen ions into the soil solution. How are you testing soil runoff from raised beds? And what kind of testing equipment are you using? Lemon juice for your citric acid? LOL! I guess you could, but I expect it would be an expensive proposition for you to balance your soil pH AND neutralize your irrigation water that way. This is what I use. You can probably find this at any local ‘dro store that also caters to organic gardeners... http://www.amazon.com/JH-Biotech-SaferGro-pH-Down/... It's HIGHLY concentrated. 1.25 ml brings one gallon of my pH 8.07 (from analysis) well water down to 5.8. I really do think you're going to need some sort of injection system though. You're dealing with a lot of plants there. Or if you're filling tanks from the well prior to watering, you could mix in the tank and use a hose. Small irrigation lines might be subject to clogging. That's covered in this newest PDF. I also wanted to point out that the FF soils you're using are closer to the “soil-less†mixes used in greenhouses than they are to healthy “native†ground soils. Even the organic “water only†mixes that I use are like this. You should think about the pH differences between these two soils when considering proper nutrient absorption... See how all the micronutrients are less available at higher pH levels in the soilless mix? Especially manganese? You must have surmised iron deficiency by looking at canna' deficiency pic's/charts? I have not, so cannot confirm one way or the other. However, it is important to note that iron and manganese have synergistic/antagonistic affect on each other when it comes to the absorption of both. Without going into a lot of detail (mostly because I don't fully understand the working relationship myself), what this means is that if there is too much/not enough of one in relation to the other, one or both will not be absorbed effectively. Manganese that's unavailable in sufficient amounts due to high soil pH might be limiting plant uptake of iron. I would strongly suggest that you figure out a plan of action. You need to get your soil pH down. From what I've read and experienced indoors, it takes about two weeks before you'll notice positive change. You don't want to lose this crop, and I can tell you from experience that things will only continue to go down hill fast if you don't do something. If of course it's high levels of dissolved liming compounds in your water that's at issue here…
Sorry you guys been really busy past few days but would like to update. I did a few different things to see what was best and so far the thing that's gonna save my crop is humic/fulvic acid. I was worried because when added to my water the ph actually went up from 8.2-8.5. It was hard for me to not throw in any fertilizer or ph down or anything else at all but the plants reacted to this instantly and it was the only thing that brought my runoff to a lower ph and it's seemed to stay there at the most part. My raised beds runoff was between 7-7.4 with the acid drench and just normal water no fertilzing or phing my water has helped tremendously in the last few days. My runoff has stabilized to about 6.6 in the greenhouses. I know this is not a perfect way of testing soil ph but when your plants tell you it's good and it's the only runoff to go lower you know something is right. Still a hard decision to give your plants 8.5 ph water but I had to set my mind of fixing the soil ph before fixing the water ph. I believe most of my troubles were associated with phing my water lower. And to answer how I tested my runoff in my beds. I had two ways, a hold drilled into the side of my box and then at the end off my boxes I dug a small hole that went under the bed and placed the bottom end of a cut water bottle. I tested immediate runoff and the runoff that collected overnight. I will post some pictures tomorrow of the progress. Was a fun experiment and I have a better understanding of salt buildup and ph lockout in organic soil with what to do and what not to do.here is a pic of one of the seeds that I tried to do a enzyme flush that was not my answer but I got some overnight response from the plant and though it's not healthy it looks pretty cool to me. Thank you for all the input! Waktoo especially! I hope you like my course of action and please let me know what you think!
I would NOT suggest using humic acid as a regular addition to your irrigation water in order to save your crop. You should research this more. Humic/fulvic acids act as chelators, and are able to be absorbed by plant roots. Use too much, and you will end up with over fertilized plants... What are the recommended application rates for the product that you're using?
Sorry it's been awhile since I've posted. Been very busy. About humic acid. Yes my overall reasoning for using humic acid was to chelate the salt buildup in soil and make it soluble to the plants. Though I did have acute over fertilization it was much better than the plants not eating at all. I gave them one good watering with 8% humic acid that I used at half suggested rate. After that it was strictly water for what 2 weeks now? Anyway my plants have turned around 100% they are now back to normal feeding regiment at 75% I did have some problems with burn on the leaf but other than that I went from only getting half the expected weight to around 80-90% expected weight. I stopped worrying about my pH when I just water and stopped over thinking the problem in total. Using the soil I do and same system yearly I don't even know why I was thinking deffincy at all. Most problems are caused by over nutrition. I have actually never seen a grow that was suffering from not enough fertilization. Just goes to show when in doubt just water water water. The more you add the worse the problem Becomes. Some of the seed stock seemed to come back with a vengeance from the stress which makes me really happy. Gonna be some knock you on your ass buds coming down in 2 weeks post pictures soon!
Know this is an old thread, bUT reading correctly. Using Humic Acid can unlock Cal/Mag lock ups due to Hard well water with high levels of calcium carbonate?