I believe gender reassignment is wrong.

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by J_IntheMix, Jul 13, 2015.

  1. Lol.....damn spell check......tats not rats...lol
     
  2. It would REALLY suck if you went under the knife to change, then you were like "fuck I think I'm actually a guy"
     
  3. I think you might be conflating sex with gender. It's pretty amazing what modern hormone therapies and such can accomplish, but in terms of biological sex and reproduction, there are genetic and anatomical obstacles that we have yet to overcome.
    I suppose it depends on a person's definition of the terms "man" and "woman".
     
  4. I'm actually not. The scientific articles that I'm talking about (namely the Nature article and the one on pubmed) specifically are about biological sex. The simple approximations that we are taught in school really are only that.
     
  5. OK that's a nice opinion. There's also a shit ton of articles just like the one you posted stating what is still being currently taught in school systems is correct. That "Y" chromosome is one tough obstacle to get over. Until science learns to change it there's only so much that can be done. There can't be a complete change from man to woman and vice versa because if that Y. Now that's not saying a person can't change their physical appearance and be happy. Do what makes you happy. You're the one who decided it offended me
     
  6. I never said chromosomes cause gender. What I said was chromosomes differentiate gender......which it does
     
  7. Sure would. In order to actually get the surgery, you need two letters from different therapists saying that you need it, and you also have to be on hormone replacement therapy for at least a year to change your biology and physiology, as well as live full-time for a year before any reputable surgeon would touch you. The regret rate of sexual reassignment surgery is very low.
     
  8. Oh wow, never knew it is that complicated. But I'm not surprised. It's a good thing those steps are in place though.
     
  9. And that's blatantly wrong. Chromosomes have nothing to do with gender at all (remember that sex and gender refer to different things). Gender identity is determined by brain structure: http://www.meduniwien.ac.at/homepage/1/news-and-to...
     
  10. #50 killset, Jul 20, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 20, 2015
    <blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' data-author="stonedphysicist" data-cid="21860573" data-time="1437423957">And that's blatantly wrong. Chromosomes have nothing to do with gender at all (remember that sex and gender refer to different things). Gender identity is determined by brain structure: <a class='bbc_url' hre

    gender is determined by brain structure but differentiated by chromosomes. It is what it is. You can't change completely



    Now this thing you bring up about therapists goes to show another point I made. Therapists deal with the mental aspect of health. Physicians deal with the physical. If it was a physical condition 2 letters may be needed by a physician not a therapist
     
  11. It would be nice to see more insurance carriers covering it. There are a few states that require insurance to cover it, which is how I'm going to be getting mine done, but unfortunately most aren't up to date with the medical community for this treatment. There's also another hardship in getting the surgery, which is that there simply aren't that many surgeons that really know how to perform it, and not all of them take insurance for it. The ones that do typically have waiting periods of over a year, which sucks.

     
  12. Well you can definitely argue that social and psychological definitions of gender are too narrow, but when it comes to biology, we can't take a biological woman and make that woman biologically indistinguishable from a man.
    That's all I'm saying. When it comes to certain biological purposes like reproduction, it really is pretty black and white.

     
  13. Excluding trans people, there's really no single biological feature that's common to all people of one sex. It really isn't that black and white.
     
  14. Something's going wonky with formatting stuff on your end. Not that it matters since I can still read what you wrote, just FYI. I'm having other issues with the website on my end, and this is getting to be a hassle for me.

    If gender were differentiated by chromosomes, then people like me simply wouldn't exist at all. If having a Y chromosome made my gender male, then I wouldn't be transitioning. Furthermore, there are plenty of women that aren't trans born with Y chromosomes that don't have male gender identities. Logically, based on these facts, chromosomes don't differentiate gender. The genetic components that play a role in gender identity determination really don't care whether or not there is a Y chromosome. Other science on how gender identity is formed suggest that prenatal hormone conditions also play a factor. But it's simply wrong to say that chromosomes differentiate gender when there are a wide variety of possibilities of cases where people have genders that are the opposite from what one would typically guess from looking at their chromosomes.

    Actually, in addition to the letters from a therapist, trans people also need clearance from a physician before surgery. But it really should be obvious that being transgender is a physical condition from the fact that the best treatment is from changing the body. If it were a mental condition, that would not work. The issue is that the body and brain don't match up, and that's a physical problem, not a mental one. This is how it is treated in medicine. The letters from therapists are basically for stating that you know what you are getting into with the surgery. Gender transition is something primarily done with the help of physicians and endocrinologists. Speaking as someone with experience going through all of this, I know what I'm talking about here.

     
  15. 1 menstrual cycle
    2 natural birth

    Show me any transgendered person that can do those. I know all naturally born women can't have children, so I'm just asking for 1 well documented and proven transgendered person doing such. Not some made up internet bs. If its really happened there will be a study done by some acclaimed source. As of now not a single transgendered person can naturally give birth. science has not figured out how to put an entire woman's working reproductive system in a man. Therefore as of now its not possible for a man to become a complete full 100% woman woman. Its not even 99%. Unless it's 100% transgendered are not 100% woman.
     
  16. Of course surgeons have to sign off on it. They sign off on breast implants too. Doesn't mean it's a life saving necessary surgery.
     
  17. Not an honest comparison, and now you are just moving the goalposts to suit your own ideology. Not all cisgender women are capable of that, so if you are going to argue that they aren't really women (which would be wrong), then you can't use that to argue that trans women aren't really women. Never have I ever claimed that I'm 100% to being a cisgender women. That doesn't make me "not a woman" as it makes me a transgender woman. I am a woman. My gender is female, and I have predominantly female physiology. There's no single trait that all cisgender women have, so you really can't make a clear-cut line in the sand for that.


    Also, nothing I've posted in this thread is "made up internet bs," but if that's the excuse that you'd like for your intellectual dishonestly and willful ignorance, fine by me. Everything that I have cited has been by an acclaimed scientific sources. If you were interested in an actual honest discussion, well, then you wouldn't create criteria for transgender women that exclude cisgender women.

     
  18. I'm talking about general physicians, not surgeons. And virtually all studies on sexual reassignment surgery show that it's highly effective and medically necessary for many trans people. I'm going to copy/paste someone else's words, but here you go for a very quick summary (there are many more studies with these results):


    • Heylans et al., 2014: "A difference in SCL-90 [a test of distress, anxiety, and hostility] overall psychoneurotic distress was observed at the different points of assessments (P = 0.003), with the most prominent decrease occurring after the initiation of hormone therapy (P < 0.001)...Furthermore, the SCL-90 scores resembled those of a general population after hormone therapy was initiated."
    • Dhejne, et al. is much-cited by those who like to say that we have elevated mortality post-transition, and it does in fact say this...for the cohort who transitioned before 1989, in a far more hostile world and with less effective treatments. However, there was not a significant elevation of suicide or of other mortality in the post-1989 cohort.
    • Colizzi et al., 2013: "At enrollment, transsexuals reported elevated CAR ['cortisol awakening response', a physiological measure of stress]; their values were out of normal. They expressed higher perceived stress and more attachment insecurity, with respect to normative sample data. When treated with hormone therapy [at followup, 1 year after beginning HRT], transsexuals reported significantly lower CAR (P < 0.001), falling within the normal range for cortisol levels. Treated transsexuals showed also lower perceived stress (P < 0.001), with levels similar to normative samples."
    • Gomez-Gil et al., 2012: "SADS, HAD-A, and HAD-Depression (HAD-D) mean scores [these are tests of depression and anxiety] were significantly higher among patients who had not begun cross-sex hormonal treatment compared with patients in hormonal treatment (F=4.362, p=.038; F=14.589, p=.001; F=9.523, p=.002 respectively). Similarly, current symptoms of anxiety and depression were present in a significantly higher percentage of untreated patients than in treated patients (61% vs. 33% and 31% vs. 8% respectively)."
    • Here is a broad survey conducted in the UK. Unlike the previous links, it's not peer-reviewed, but the large sample size provides some corroboration of the above results. In particular, we have: (Page 15): "Stage of transition had a substantial impact upon life satisfaction within the sample. 70% of the participants stated that they were more satisfied with their lives since transition, compared to 2% who were less satisfied (N=671)" (Page 50): " Most participants who had transitioned felt that their mental health was better after doing so (74%), compared to only 5% who felt it was worse (N=353)." (Page 55): "For participants who had transitioned, this had led to changes in their self-harming. 63% felt that they harmed themselves more before they transitioned, with only 3% harming themselves more after transition (N=206)." (Page 59): "Suicidal ideation and actual attempts reduced after transition, with 63% thinking about or attempting suicide more before they transitioned and only 3% thinking about or attempting suicide more post-transition. 7% found that this increased during transition, which has implications for the support provided to those undergoing these processes (N=316)."
    • de Vries, et al., 2014 studied 55 trans teens from the onset of treatment in their early teenage years through a follow-up an average of 7 years later. They found no negative outcomes, no regrets, and in fact their group was slightly mentally healthier than controls.
    • Lawrence, 2003 surveyed post-op trans folk: "Participants reported overwhelmingly that they were happy with their SRS results and that SRS had greatly improved the quality of their lives. None reported outright regret and only a few expressed even occasional regret."

    Everything I've stated in this thread is medical consensus...

     
  19. hold on there is no comparison. Youre saying a man can become a woman. I'm saying that's not 100% possible. Therefore no man can be 100% woman. What your describing sounds more like a hermaphrodite with some non functioning organs. A mix of both sexes.


    I wasn't saying you posted any internet bs. I'm just saying there's alot if internet bs out there and I wasn't going to take a headline from some tabloid as proof.....no transgender being able too reproduce= no man becoming 100% woman. If a man could become a woman there wouldn't be people calling themselves transgendered, they would just say woman. I understand you went through all of this too make yourself happy. Im not going to claim to understand. But I'm not going to make a fairy tale world so I can. I could almost buy into a 3rd sex Male, female, transgendered, but even that would take alot if convincing. However until a man can have a complete change a give birth, no man can become a woman by cosmetic surgery. And I'm sorry if you take offense to it but it is what it is. Cutting off a weiner and making a vagina that still has feelings doesn't make someone biologically a female. It just means a man's sexual organ was turned inside out.....still no menstrual cycle or child birth. A woman is a woman, a man is a man. Then there's some who are somewhere in the middle
     
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  20. I meant to say I'm not going to claim to understand why

    I can't edit shit without adding a bunch of weird crap
     

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