Hello fellow GC'ers, it's been a bit! There are 3 ladies going at the moment, one is almost done in a separate cabinet and the other two are a few weeks into flowering, both in the same cabinet. The two that are together started to get a little funky, and it's continuing. First, let me tell you the mix I used. Please don't crucify me for using Fox Farms, I had a "crisis" at one point and had to use what was nearby. 32 cups FF Ocean Forest 32 cups FF Happy Frog 16 cups Espoma Perlite 6 tbsp Espoma Garden Lime 5 tbsp Azomite 6 tbsp mycorrhizae 4 tbsp Espoma Tomato Tone 1/2 cup kelp meal Worm Power EWC (didn't write down how much I used) I left this to cook for 6 weeks. The one girl that is in a separate cabinet is almost done and did not have this problem. The other problematic two were a bit behind. They were transplanted into their final pots with the above mix as they were switched to 12/12. A few weeks later, I started noticing the leaves. Admittedly, I should have seen it sooner. I flushed them yesterday, and while holding the recently flushed pot I wondered if I hadn't been giving them enough water. They are in 6 quart (192 oz) containers, and I would give them 22 oz of water every 3-4 days, watering them just before they would start to wilt. There were 3 or 4 times that I had been late and they had wilted for a day. The first two pics are plant #1, the last three are plant #2. These two are kept in a cabinet that is usually around 75*F lights on and 72*F lights off. It currently has a 50/50 mix of 6500K CFL's to 2700K CFL's because I haven't gone to the store yet to get more 2700's. If the meter has been correct, it's been staying at 35% humidity. The first girl that I mentioned (the one in a different cabinet that's almost finished) was given the same soil mix and the same water, and hasn't had these problems. The cabinet that one stays in is generally a little warmer. Aside from what i've mentioned, they look good and smell great. Is this merely a cause of water/moisture stress? Thanks!
too much nitrogen. you can't flush organic soil fertilizers. it doesn't work like synthetic nutrients do. all you can do is water only for now. the FFOF and HF should have enough fertilizer and come with lime so I don't think theres a need for additional stuff. myco's should be applied to the roots because if it doesn't come in contact with roots, they won't work the way you want them to. they need physical contact so if you're mixing it up in the soil, there's no point and it's wasteful. plus FF add this to their soil already.
You can "flush" any nutrient from the soil as long as it's soluble. And that's where the toxicity is coming from. Too much toxic soluble ammonium in the soil solution. In technical terms, it's called leaching.
Thanks guys. I do believe I overlooked the fact that there was already lime in the mix, and amended it as if it were a soil from scratch. I applied myco to the roots during transplants and I mixed a little into the soil as per the recommended amount on the container. So, being that I flushed it a couple days before this post, is that all I can do? Should I do it again or am I okay? I flushed with 3x the pot size. Thanks again fellas.
If your problem is excess ammonium, you've done what you can for now. Keep a close eye on things to see if the effected leaves get worse, or for the problem spreading to un-effected leaves. I'm not sure what it is that your asking me. Soluble nutrient ions derived from "organic fertilizers" are the end product of microbial degradation/enzymatic reaction.
I guess I wasn't aware that ammonium nitrates were organically derived. Hrm well I'll have to remember that flushing can solve problems. Why do you guys make fun of it then? Just curious.
Thank you for your help. I'm getting a bit worried because they had been doing so well, and it's roughly 4 weeks into flowering now.. don't want to stunt the flower production. I guess time will tell!
Ammonium Nitrate is a chemical fertilizer - you are correct. Flushing isn't doing jack in an organic garden besides making your soil soggy. j
You are correct. Ammonium nitrate (NH4-NO3) is a chemical/man made fertilizer. But ammonium (NH4+) is not, necessarily. In an "organic" sense, ammonium is the first form of nitrogen in the microbially driven nitrification process. Nitrification converts the toxic (if present in high enough levels) ammonium to the much less toxic nitrate (NO3-). It's a very complicated process that I do not fully understand as of yet. I do know that proper C:N ratios of soil/compost is key for this process to operate efficiently and effectively. If there are insufficient levels of available carbon in the soil/compost to go with the nitrogen being cycled, it's processed into ammonia/ammonium and I think the nitrification process pretty much stops there, allowing for the toxic ammonium to build up in the soil solution. I don't want to confuse you with my own interpretation of exactly (more like basically, lol!) it works. See what you think... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrification View attachment Compost Fundamentals Compost Needs - Carbon Nitrogen Relationships.htm I really wish I could get this spacing issue figured out... I'm not getting any love over in the tech' forum... Nowadays I don't make fun of the "flushers" so much. I have a deeper understanding of soil chemistry now, and I can see the usefulness of leaching soils if the situation actually calls for it. It all really depends on why the gardener is "flushing" their soil, what they hope to accomplish by said "flushing", and also what their definition of "flushing" is. Lack of understanding of these three things (and soil chemistry) I think is what drives the often times unwarranted ridicule from our "side of the fence".
so it is like you say and that is why his plant is green and curled, but if he flushes his soil, this causes denitrification and makes it unavailable and that's why overwatering makes your plants yellow. heres a post on why I think organically derived nitrogen is better than nitrate only fed synthetic plants when you're talking about pests. due to the microbial process I think this is what gives the plant it's health even though the organic forms are being turned into nitrate forms. I'm too tired to explain now and too tired to explain then but it has good info on how it works.
IMO flushing began years back with the hydro crowd where it can actually be useful but somehow carried over to soil gardens where it isn't doing much, or at least not in an organic soil. If one is using chemical fertilizers and, let's say they use too much, sure, it could help to remove excess nutrients but in an organic garden where OM needs to break down first before it could be considered plant or soil "food", I don't believe it's doing anything helpful.
heres what is probably the culprit. I only checked the soil but forgot to check the tomato tone. it didn't sound like he added much but there it is. Tomato Tone 4-7-10 Total Nitrogen (N) ............................................................. 4.0% 2.0% Ammoniacal Nitrogen 0.3% Other Water Soluble Nitrogen 1.7% Water Insoluble Nitrogen Available Phosphate (P2O5) ............................................. 7.0% Soluble Potash (K2O)....................................................... 10.0% Calcium (Ca) .................................................................... 3.0% Total Magnesium (Mg)...................................................... 0.5% 0.3% Water Soluble Magnesium (Mg) Sulfur (S) .......................................................................... 5.0% 5.0% Combined Sulfur (S) Boron (B).......................................................................... 0.02% Chlorine (Cl) ..................................................................... 0.1% Cobalt (Co)....................................................................... 0.0005% Total Copper (Cu)............................................................. 0.05% Total Iron (Fe) ................................................................... 1.0% Total Manganese (Mn)...................................................... 0.05% 0.01% Water Soluble Manganese (Mn) Molybdenum (Mo)............................................................ 0.0005% Sodium (Na)..................................................................... 0.1% Total Zinc (Zn) .................................................................. 0.05% NET WEIGHT 5 LBS (2.26 kg) GUARANTEED ANALYSIS Derived from: Dehydrated Manure, Feather Meal, Crab Meal, Bone Meal, Cottonseed Meal, Dried Blood, Sunflower Meal, Kelp Meal, Alfalfa Meal, GreenSand, Rock Phosphate, PLUS FF uses guanos in both mixes as one of the main ferts so its all the manure.
LOL! LLB, the responses to flushing that you've gotten over in the "Lounge" are EXACTLY what I was talking about at the end of post #10. cabinetman had the best grasp of the situation, and I doubt he even read this thread...
suggesting that since youre so far into flower that you just ride it out and water only/do not flush. the tomato tone is really high in nutrients then on top of that you have FFOF which is fairly amended so you have too much nitrogen. if you flush then you'll water log the soil which will harm the microherd and cause nitrogen to not be available. sounds like a good thing but it's not. your soil goes anerobic releasing ammonia creating unhealthy conditions in the soil. I wouldn't want it stressed during flower. I'm sure it will turn out just fine. next time just try the FFOF/HF and only if your plant acts like it needs nitrogen, then top dress a source. this will give you more control on how much nitrogen is in there. poo has lots of ammonia nitrogen than say alfalfa or crab meal. there needs to be more of a balance between water soluble and non soluble sources. Organic manures are the main source of ammonia volatilisation. <em></em>
Flushed soil are not waterlogged soils. Flushed soils drain freely, and draw fresh oxygen into the root zone as they're being flushed. Waterlogged soils in agricultural applications get that way because the soil is literally sitting in water that cannot drain away. It takes a lot of overwatering of potted plants to create the anaerobic soil conditions that cause "denitrification". Flushed soils that are allowed to dry out properly before being watered again do not produce anaerobic conditions.
I feel like I should have provided boxing gloves with this thread LOL. When I flushed, I let them drain on their own, and then I tilted each pot to the side to let any excess water drain out through the drain holes until it stopped. They will not see water again until they are sufficiently dried out. On the next go around, what do you guys suggest? Less lime and less/no tomato tone in the final pot soil mixture, and then top dress with additional food as needed? I read that someone just top dressed with seabird guano every 3 weeks or so, what else would you recommend? Again, thanks!
"On the next go around, what do you guys suggest?" A true homemade organic soil based on compost and vermicompost. J