Finally getting around to making compost. Question about ingredients.

Discussion in 'Growing Organic Marijuana' started by StaffOfPower, Mar 22, 2015.

  1. I notice that on a lot of lists of compost ingredients, shredded newspaper is listed as a carbonaceous ingredient.  Usually carrying an individual C:N ratio of around 175:1
     
    Long story short, I'm lacking "brown" material at the moment, and I have shitloads of shredded paper laying around, but no shredded NEWSPAPER.  How different are the two in terms of C:N?
     
    I'm also trying to do hot compost, so I need a total C:N of about 25-30:1 when my pile is completely built.
     
    As for my greens, I'm definitely going to be using Coffee Grounds, Horse manure, and a small - medium amount of weeds I've pulled.
     
    So if shredded regular paper wont do, what is something else I could use as a brown ingredient?  Maybe im not thinking or looking hard enough, but it seems like the options are scarce this time of year.....

     
  2. #2 Anatman, Mar 22, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2015
    No leaves? Jerry would say get you a rake and some bags and hit the woods.
     
    The thermophilic bacteria breakdown the lignin in leaves much faster than what happens when you just pile them up.
     
  3. Fair enough lol, I'd definitely be willing to do that.
     
    Is it okay to mix in other random debris with the leaves though?  If I were to literally collect fallen leaves in the wild, I'm sure I wouldnt be able to gather "JUST" leaves...  There'd be some other random crap in there, for sure.
     
  4. You could always go buy a bale or two of straw. It's cheap and is also a good brown material. In answer to your question/s, yes you can use shredded paper. Try to stay away from paper with glossy printing. If you do rake some leaves in the forest, try not to rake all the way down to the soil. Fallen leaves are a vital part of the forest's ecosystem. Their decomposition is basically what fertilizes the forest.
     
    You can also use cardboard as a brown. I've found that saturating it with water and then pulling it apart into small pieces is a lot easier than trying to do it dry. You really want it to be in smaller pieces (chunks) rather than large pieces so that it breaks down quicker. This also helps to increase the thermal activity of the pile.
     
    You might want to visit the Backyard Composting Sticky at the top of this forum. You'll find a lot of valuable information in there also. Hope we've helped you get it figured out and don't be afraid to ask for clarification of anything you don't understand.
     
    All the best,
     
    Chunk
     
  5.  
    I was wondering about straw.  Good to know.
     
    Everything youre telling me makes sense.  Use straw if need be, cardboard will work, paper but no gloss. Got it. 
     
    About the leaves, yeah, I kind of figured not to take them all.  I'll be mindful of that.  Does that mean that random debris mixed in with the leaves would not be an issue though?
     
    And last but not least (Then I'll try to find out everything else on my own),  how important is the ratio REALLY?  I mean, obviously you dont want it to be WAY off, but do I really need to worry about finding each ingredients individual C:N and calculating the final total ratio...?
     
  6. #6 waktoo, Mar 22, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2015
     
    It's pretty important for proper nutrient cycling, especially when considering sequestration of C and N.  If the ratios are too far off one way or the other, either nitrogen or carbon is lost to the atmosphere instead of being taken up (immobilized) by soil microbes.
     
    Here's a little info about the importance of the C:N ratio when considering composting.  There's a nice little list containing the C:N ratios of some very commonly used composting materials at the end so you can get an idea of what you're dealing with before you start collecting stuff...
     
    View attachment Compost Fundamentals Compost Needs - Carbon Nitrogen Relationships.htm
     
    Here's a link to a compost mix calculator that aids in figuring how much of what to hit a 30:1 C:N ratio in your mix.  Some of the ingredient list differs from above, but you can get a general idea by substituting in materials easily available to you that have similar C:N ratios.
     
    http://www.klickitatcounty.org/solidwaste/fileshtml/organics/compostCalc.htm
     
  7. Staff of Power, you are stepping into a whole new level of gardening. Ya know how we are always preaching to use quality compost/vermicompost? Making your own is as good as it gets and once you've got your first heap behind you and a second one is composting; once you incorporate your OWN compost into your potting soil you'll be smiling hard buddy. Very cool.

    "Does that mean that random debris mixed in with the leaves would not be an issue though?"

    It's just fine to have assorted forest debris mixed in and in fact the diversity will do more good than anything. Bits of bark, rotted branches, assorted bits of this and that will all help to supply both a variety of nutrition and an assortment of fungus and bacteria to the mix.

    "really need to worry about finding each ingredients individual C:N and calculating the final total ratio...?"

    I find that as long as I'm reasonably close that this works out just great every time and that I don't have to drive myself crazy trying to figure out all the math. IMO of course.

    Again, congrats on making the next step.

    J
     
  8. Excellent, I'm definitely excited. I've been talking about it for a year and now I'm finally prepared to actually get it done. Not only excited to witness the process, but definitely about not having to buy nutrients and fertilizer anymore too.

    Good to hear about the forest debris. That is what I was thinking, but I wanted to be sure.

    So it sounds like I probably didn't have to crunch numbers for as long as I did, but I did anyway, and this is the assortment of materials that I have readily available, along with their C:N ratios

    Dry Leaves - 60:1
    Weeds - 30:1
    Wood Ash - 25:1
    Coffee Grounds - 20:1
    Horse Manure - 18:1

    60+30+25+20+18 = 153

    153/5 = 30.6

    So 30.6:1 total with that mix.

    I was planning on just alternating layers of browns and greens, and putting some of each green material in every layer. Will that work, or do I need to be more specific with individual amounts?

    Thanks again, like I said hopefully this is my last question for a while at least lol.
     
  9. That math only works if you're using the same amount of everything.
     
    Use this compost calculator that Wak already posted:
     
    http://www.klickitatcounty.org/solidwaste/fileshtml/organics/compostCalc.htm
     
     
    I usually layer some brown first, like my straw or leaves, then manure, brown, green, brown green, etc. The very next day I mix it all up good to make it as homogenous as I can.
     
  10. #10 StaffOfPower, Mar 22, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 22, 2015
    I guess I didn't make that very clear -- I am a bit medicated.

    But that was my point. If I use the same amount of all those, would it work? 'Cause like I said, all those materials I listed are very readily available.

    If not, I'll have to look at that calculator again another time, I didn't quite understand it when I checked it out a few minutes ago lol...
     
  11. #11 Anatman, Mar 22, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2015
    Yeah, if you use the same amounts, then that ratio works.
     
    I believe my compost I started 3 weeks ago was more of a 33-35 C:N ratio, and everything's breaking down and heating up, though I'm thinking it will take a little longer than if I had it at like C:N 28:1 or something. But that's just speculation.
     
    For the calculator:
     
    In the leftmost column you select what material you're using, then the next column under CuFt, you put how many cubic feet of material you're using, you can use fractions/decimals if you're using under a cubic foot of material.
     
    After selecting your inputs and amounts, the very last cell at the bottom right should give you the C:N ratio of your whole pile. You can then play with the amounts to get the ratio you'd like.
     
    Hope this helps [​IMG][​IMG]
     
  12. Alright, cool.

    So again, to clarify, what you mean by "equal amounts" would be like...

    Leaves
    Horse Manure
    Leaves
    Coffee Grounds
    Leaves
    Weeds
    Etc.

    Right?

    That's interesting. I kind of nerded out earlier and came up with several different combos between 25 and 30:1 C:N. One was 28.

    Thanks for explaining that calculator, that helps a lot! I appreciate everything.
     
  13. Equal amounts meaning, if you measure out all the ingredients before hand, they all measure the same amount, ie
     
    10gal Leaves
    10gal Horse Manure
    10gal Coffee Grounds
    10gal Weeds
    10gal Woodash
     
    You don't have to layer the same amount every time, especially since you're just going to be mixing it all up.
     
  14. Ah, got it. Cool. That definitely simplifies things.

    All questions have been answered! (For now, lol) Thanks again to everyone who contributed!
     
  15. Remember - it's not mature/finished compost until you cannot distinguish any individual items. I also like to screen it all when its close to being done (4 pcs of 2"x6" mebbe 3' long, screwed/nailed together with a 1/2" hardware cloth screen nailed over one side). This will catch any larger unfinished pieces that can go into the next heap.

    I also advise not to keep adding stuff once you've built your heap. If you add materials once the process is (well) underway then you've got to wait for them to start breaking down which virtually puts you back at the beginning of your timeframe. Just keep collecting materials until you've got enough for a 2nd heap, etc.

    Size matters with a thermal compost heap. Size helps keep things moist but also helps hold heat. Ideally you want your heap to be 3'x3'x3' or bigger.

    Compost makes excellent worm food/bedding.

    To take compost to even another level I like to add the items that you'd normally add to your soil mix once your compost has gone through its thermophilic stage and is starting to mature - rock flour, kelp, neem etc.

    If you ever find yourself short on "N/greens", buy a #50 pound sack of alfalfa meal/pellets and layer them into your heap.

    Compost on!

    J
     
  16. Great tips Jerry, I appreciate it.
     
    I thought of a couple more questions today while gathering materials...
     
    1)  How long can you "stockpile" materials before the C:N values begin to change?  It's going to take me probably a couple weeks to gather the right amount of a couple of the materials I plan on using.  Example: Coffee Grounds.  Even though I'm working together with the local cafe, its still going to take a while.
     
    2)  stevebomb used the example number of 10 gallons of each material... How would 30 gallons of each material do?    The little enclosed area I made for my heap is 100 cubic feet, so its not realistic to try to fill it up all the way with materials.  Gathering that much would take months.  I'd be willing to save up maybe 60gal of each, if that would be better.
     
    3)  From what I understand, the results can vary quite a bit, but on average, how many gallons or cubic feet of FINISHED, usable compost would 30 gallons of each material produce?
     
  17. Howdy Staff you've certainly been given some good advice thus far and you've done your research well. A couple of things I'd like to offer you that I'm sure you'll also find in the composting thread are; One, you don't have to physically partition off your 10x10 area but you do need to arrange your initial pile such that you will have an easier time turning your compost, that subject being a whole other convo. In any event lay it out such that when you toss it during maintenance you'll have room to work in your area. Two, I always recommend to everyone that is composting be it on the farm, suburbia, or the balcony of an apartment, that the vegetable spoilage potentially available at your local groceries might be available to purchase very cheap. A very high percentage of fresh produce results in spoilage and dumpsters behind little grocery stores are full of it every week. Forget the large chain stores (perhaps) and go for the Piggly Wiggly, IGA, Sav-A-Lot etc., and their class of grocery. Talk to the produce manager, tell him what you're doing, and buy a couple of cases of rotten cucumbers (potassium) bananas (potassium), and a few other 'better' vegetables that slip my mind right now  [​IMG] . Anyway, check that out.
     
    One other thing, IDK what your geography is and thus what your options are for this-n-that but a real compost 'fire starter' is alfalfa (no one has mentioned comfrey yet). 100% pure alfalfa is available in a compressed bale at Tractor Supply ($$$$), rural areas you can find small bales of alfalfa/timothy mix ($), or you can purchase alfalfa feed pellets from a farm store or pet store where you're at. Alfalfa pellets are THE preferred food for people raising rabbits. And alfalfa fed rabbit scat.... well, that's a whole other story in itself as well but it is one of the "best" (on the 'better/best' scale of things) for composting.
     
    In any event, toss your compost pile at least monthly IMO for the best and fastest results. Aeration is extremely important when composting.
     
    Good luck and Happy ... [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] ... Highs  [​IMG]
     
  18.  
    Thanks for the response, Possuum!  Appreciate the info.
     
    I'll definitely go hit up a couple grocery stores tomorrow and see what I can find out.  Theres actually a family owned one nearby to where I live that I would assume would be willing to set something up.  I'm trying not to worry TOO much about ratios and whatnot, but APPROXIMATELY, what kind of ratio would veggie scraps carry? Something like ~25:1?
     
    As for alfalfa, I'm actually considering that.  Only because it's taking a long time to accumulate the right amount of coffee grounds.
     
    As of today, I have...
     
    30gal Dry Leaves (60:1)
    30gal Weeds (30:1)
    30gal Horse Manure (18:1)
     
    I only have 5gal of coffee grounds so far, and MAYBE <5gal of wood ash.  So I'm looking for alternatives to both of those.
     
    One solution I found would be a combination of Hay and Alfalfa, in addition to the three things I already have.  Perhaps Alfalfa and Veggie Scraps, depending on how it goes tomorrow at the grocery stores.
     
    is 30gal of each material a good amount, or should I aim for something more like 60gal each?  (FYI I'm using gallon measurements because ive got everything in 30gal hefty bags lol.)
     
    Oh, and speaking of rabbits, I was wondering about that earlier today.  Useful info!  I'm definitely going to be getting one or two.  I've been wanting some kind of animal anyway, and I cant have anything larger than like rabbits or chickens where I'm at.  So rabbits would work out great! 
     
    Thanks again.
     
  19. On the phone typing so it's challenging to respond in a cogent fashion.

    1. Do NOT put wood ash in your compost, garden, flower bed etc. Someone will come along and explain it if necessary.

    2. Composting is science and art. Dont even attempt to mathematically hit the "best" C:N ratio. Use KY windage with a pragmatic approach and you'll be fine.

    3. The C:N ratio of produce is not so much the objective rather its the mineral store in the vegetables themselves. Organic folks are looking for organic sources of the nutrient profile line and vegetables are an excellent choice juzt as lawn clippins. Same vein of thought.

    Gotta dash....
     
  20. #20 GiMiK, Mar 25, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 25, 2015
    Wood ash is VERY alkaline and will alter the properties of the compost/soil it's added to, even in small amounts. Useful if working with acidic materials (fermented anything, biosolids, bokashi, peat etc) but not so much when dealing with (for example) leaves, straw and alfalfa.
     
     "When wood burns, nitrogen and sulfur are lost as gases, and calcium, potassium, magnesium and trace element compounds remain. The carbonates and oxides remaining after wood burning are valuable liming agents, raising pH, thereby helping to neutralize acid soils."
     
    http://extension.oregonstate.edu/gardening/wood-ash-can-be-useful-yard-if-used-caution
     
     
    Increasing pH
    \n[​IMG]
    Whether you're composting with wood ashes or using them directly in your garden, they tend to increase pH levels. Wood ashes are 25% calcium carbonate, which makes them quite alkaline (pH greater than 7.0) by nature. Calcium is a VERY critical nutrient to your composting and gardening success.
    \nIf your soils are quite acidic, the addition of wood ash is very beneficial. If you're composting a lot of vegetable wastes (quite acidic), you'll benefit from the alkalizing effects of ash. However, if your soils are already alkaline, which mine are in Ontario, using an excessive amount of wood ash in my compost or garden can be detrimental.
    \nThis is one reason to avoid using wood ashes in excess. If you swing your pH to far in one direction, it will lock up specific nutrients in your soil, which is not what we want. This is one reason I always recommend regular soil testing.
    Note - Ideal soil pH is slightly acidic.
    \nhttp://www.compostjunkie.com/composting-wood-ashes.html
    \n\nI wouldn't be afraid of using it lightly in the compost pile, especially if I was composting dairy or swine manure. Just use common sense and tread lightly with the ash application, you'll be fine imo.
    \n\nEdit; also veggie/produce waste generates quite a bit of moisture, as most produce is mainly water with some organic material.
    \nDon't forget to take the moisture content of the materials used into consideration when building or maintaining your compost pile.
     

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