Evolution defines pleasure as the only good

Discussion in 'Science and Nature' started by MattMVS7, Mar 19, 2015.

  1. also from the link he put up

    "Rivals would simply re-state the ongoing central issue using neighbouring concepts; for example: ‘however it might be with the narrower concept “motive”, the claim that we are always moved by pleasure is false'. Nor would it help motivational hedonists to make a Humpty Dumpty move here (see Carroll: ch. 6): ‘when I use the words “is motivated”, said Humpty Dumpty, they mean just what I choose them to mean, namely “is aimed at pleasure”'. Such stipulation does not identify any good reason for anyone to join Humpty Dumpty in his eccentric word usage."

    that pretty much explains the OP...

     
  2. I think you have the meanings of right and wrong confused.
     
  3. so when starving African children suffer because of American hedonism, you should treat them bad because they are bad people?

    -yuri
     
  4. That's what the man is saying. He is trying really hard to justify his terrible behavior. He knows he is a piece of shit, he just doesn't want to believe it.
     
  5. #25 MattMVS7, Mar 23, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 23, 2015
     
    Our thoughts including everything else in life can never define our feelings of pleasure as being bad or neutral.  It would be no different than the fact that one type of smell cannot define another type of smell.  In this case, one type of smell (our thoughts including everything else in life) cannot define another smell (which would be our feelings of pleasure) since they are different smells with different properties and characteristics.  Therefore, pleasure is a version of good that is always good in of itself no matter what since it always feels good.  This version of good cannot be defined otherwise through our thoughts, moral values, including everything else in life.
     
     
    Then die.  You would be nothing more than a malfunctioning machine that needs to be tossed and thrown into the metal scraps.  This is exactly what I plan to do if I can never recover my pleasure.  However, I am not the type of person to give up just yet.  I will live for a possible recovery.  But if that can never happen, then I die.  We who suffer should live for a recovery first.  But if it can never happen and if not having that said suffering in your life was the only thing that defined you and your personal life as good and worth living, then you should die.  A life with as much pleasure and as little suffering as possible is the one and only greatest life there is and is the one and only thing that makes you the greatest person.  Pleasure is all there is to life.  Without that, you and your life are nothing regardless of how much you choose to help others and do other productive things in life despite your absence of pleasure.
     
    I can give an analogue here for us who suffer.  If there is a defective robot that can never be repaired, then that robot would be thrown into the metal scraps.  However, if it can be fully repaired, then it will be deemed as a great robot since it can be fully repaired and fully functional again.  Therefore, if I were to have a cure right now for all the people suffering, then they would now be great people since I can give them this cure which would free them of their suffering and allow them to live a blissful life.  But since there is no cure, then they are nothing without their feelings of pleasure.  It doesn't matter who these people are and how much they have chosen to help others out in life anyway despite their suffering and absence of pleasure.  They are still nothing without their pleasure.  If, let's pretend, that I were told that I would fully recover my lost pleasure by tomorrow, then that would make me and my life great.  But if I were told that I would never recover, then me and my life would be utterly inferior and I would end my life.  Therefore, the greatness of me and my life now solely lies on and is determined by fate now.
     
    I know that many people would say to me that we are not robots and that we do have human value.  Therefore, these people might say to me that my analogue is false then.  But since pleasure is the only true good in life, then everything else in life is all neutral ("robotic") and we would have every right to treat ourselves and others who have no pleasure as defective robots that need to be thrown away in the event that they can never fully recover their lost pleasure.  It would be the truly cruel thing to tell such a suffering person with nothing good in their lives that they should accept and move on in life.  That person needs to instead be put out like a suffering animal.
     
    You might also be thinking I am a pessimist.  However, I am only a pessimist when I don't have my feelings of pleasure.  But if I were to have my full normal pleasure back to me in life, then I would be an optimist.  If I were to have any other form of suffering besides an absence of pleasure or depression, then I think I would still be an optimist.  Therefore, as long as I have my full pleasure in life, then me and my life are good in any given situation.
     

     
  6. #26 TesseLated, Mar 23, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 23, 2015
     
    ahahahaha...yesss
     
     
    Op try some X...You'll feel great and be a real good person....instantly!!!

    [​IMG]
     
  7. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ip0_bhb300
     
  8. op. Your problem is that you feel life is pointless if you "currently" aren't feeling pleasure.

    But pleasure is relative. Without dissatisfaction you cannot percieve pleasure. You would only feel neutral.

    Displeasure is necessary to feel pleasure.

    -yuri
     
  9.  
    Displeasure is not necessary to experience pleasure just as being blind is not necessary to see.  Also, I feel a chronic absence of pleasure that is there all the time 24/7.  There are never any brief moments of any pleasure to make me and my life anything good for even brief moments.
     
  10. #30 yurigadaisukida, Mar 24, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 24, 2015
    "pleasure" is a chemical response in the brain.

    Like any drug, your body can become tolerant to it when overused.

    Basically you did this to yourself.

    Hedonism leads to depression (dopamine tolerance)

    You need moderation.

    This is a well researched scientific fact BTW.

    -yuri
     
  11. Too much of anything is bad, and that includes pleasure...
     
  12. It takes dynamite to get me up
    Too much of everything is just enough
    One more thing I just got to say
    I need a miracle every day  -GDead

     
    Start meditating OP-Break on through
     
  13. #33 MattMVS7, Mar 24, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 24, 2015
     
    That was not the cause of my anhedonia.  My anhedonia was the result of too much stress in my life.  I think it is a negative symptom of schizophrenia as my doctor told me.
     
    As for gaining a chemical tolerance, perhaps one day through science we can live eternal lives of pleasure in which we would never develop a tolerance.
     
  14. I don't understand how that justifies your belief.

    Somestimes pleasure must be earned.

    If you don't take pleasure in life by choice you'll never be able to experience pleasure.

    That's what people fail to understand. Happiness is a choice. Everyone has problems.

    -yuri
     
  15. #35 MattMVS7, Mar 26, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 26, 2015
    I am going to bring up an important point I made in one of my other posts and I am going to explain further on it:
     
    "We can use images and famous portraits to convey who we are as a person. If, for example, you were a composer, then you might choose to have an image of Beethoven as an expression of who you are. The image of someone who values suffering and values/seeks intelligence and the truth over pleasure might have the image of some famous intellect. However, if that image were to be hung up on my wall as an expression of who I am, then I would take a hammer and smash that portrait. This is because I do not value suffering and I value pleasure over intelligence. Profound feelings of love, joy, motivation, transcendence, innocence, etc. are the only things I value in my personal life. I have been mocked and insulted long enough with this absence of pleasure, depression, and there being no afterlife as a reward for it all. I have been even further mocked and insulted by people who tell me to accept and live with all of that and that I should just find other things of value such as knowing the truth and intelligence instead. Therefore, I would smash that portrait and replace it with a new one.
     
    This new one would be a portrait of a pink-haired mother living in a blissful fantasy world with her pink-haired little daughter. They live lives of pure bliss and no suffering and no absence of pleasure. They are not selfish and do not act spoiled in living such a blissful life. They care for each other. They believe that they will live eternally in such a life and that no suffering or absence of pleasure would ever come to them. They also have no value towards suffering and have no value towards an absence of pleasure. They have no value in growing as a person through such suffering and they have no value in pushing and striving in life through such suffering either. They are perfectly fine and happy the way they are. They can live eternally in this perfect blissful life without ever going bored or ever going insane from it since it is the one and only greatest life for them. So this is the portrait that would express me. If I had the choice to either live eternally in such a life with them or to remain in this world, I would obviously choose to live with them. I also would never go bored or insane from living such an eternal blissful life since I also have immense full value towards such a life as well."
     
    So now, I am going to talk some more about that quoted message.  This would be no different than a bunch of happy bunnies who are carefree and have little suffering.  In this case, they are bunnies that live lives of eternal bliss and no suffering.  I only wish to live like a happy carefree bunny.  It is only natural for us as human beings to want to live like that as well since we are also animals and it is only natural for animals to want to live like that.  This is because pleasure is the only good thing in life and is the only thing that encourages our survival while feelings of suffering are the only bad things in life that discourage our survival.  Therefore, to not want to live such a life and to instead have value towards other things in life greater than pleasure, then to deem feelings of pleasure to be of little to no significance would mean you have a mental disorder.  I do not have such a mental disorder and nor would I ever have it.  Therefore, I will always be bound to having such immense value towards my pleasure and I will always have this profound strong desire to have it back in my life which is a desire that only serves to bring me rage and depression since I can't have it back in my life.
     
    If I had the choice right now, I would sacrifice all my human attributes and I would sacrifice my composing dream if it meant me living as a happy carefree bunny who feels pleasure all the time.  But that would only be providing if I could never fully recover my lost pleasure as a human being.  Also, if a human being is defined as someone who finds good value in other things in life besides feelings of pleasure (all good feelings), then don't even consider me a human being.  Just consider me as a happy carefree bunny.  I do not care about intelligence, I do not care about growing as a person through my suffering and absence of pleasure, and I don't care about this life at all without my feelings of pleasure.  I also don't care about knowing the truth.  In other words, me being an atheist who knows that there is no God or afterlife of eternal pleasure, this only serves to have no benefit for me and my life at all.  It only serves to be a mockery and an insult to me.  This is because a life of eternal pleasure and no suffering is the only greatest life there is and me being an atheist just takes that away from me.  It just takes the belief in such an afterlife away from me.  If I had my full pleasure in life right now, I would find immense value and such in this life through having the belief in an afterlife since that would encourage me more in this life in order to obtain that grand reward of an afterlife in the end.   It would be the ultimate reward of eternal pleasure for me.  I don't care if that said belief is delusional (which it is).  Just me feeling a greater sense of pleasure from it is what would make me and my life better since pleasure is all there is to life and is the only true good thing in life.  We should all kill each other if it means gaining more pleasure in life and that would make you a better person in gaining more pleasure.  But I would not recommend it though since I do have empathy and would not recommend the harming of innocent people.
     
    So just consider me as having the personality and desires of a happy innocent carefree bunny who just wants to live in its own natural habitat seeking pleasure.  Nothing else matters to this bunny without its pleasure just as nothing else matters to me in my life without my pleasure.  I would want to be a happy deluded bunny if I had the choice who believes in an afterlife of eternal pleasure of no suffering.
     
    Even if I was the most intelligent genius in the world with no pleasure who could help many people all around the world through my intelligence, I would still sacrifice all my intelligence for a life of pure pleasure as a bunny.  I would abandon my own family to live my life as a bunny out in the wild.  I would not be having less value towards my family and other people in doing so.  It is just my right and entitlement to live such a life since I am an innocent person.  I have suffered long enough from depression and this absence of pleasure and I deserve to live such a blissful life.
     
    Bunnies as well as other animals have immense value towards their feelings of pleasure as well as having immense value towards others of their kind.  It is not a form of value in words or phrases since they do not speak words.  It would be a value that is in a different form.  Them having value towards both sides is what makes them more innocent and profound.  But for you to have no value towards your feelings of pleasure or towards mine for that matter, that would make you much more inferior since you would be a bland human being who lives life like a job and a robot.
     
    If you were such a non-hedonistic person who has no value towards profound feelings of pleasure like I do, then I can prove to you right here and now how you would be insensitive, cruel, bland, and inferior and how people who do have immense value towards both their pleasure as well as others are the more innocent profound people.
     
    Such people who have no value towards pleasure would be very likely to say something to me such as:
     
    "That's just tough.  Life is a struggle and you die.  Just accept your absence of pleasure and keep plowing through.  I have had an absence of pleasure all my life.  What's the big deal about not having pleasure?  Also, your choice in becoming that bunny to sacrifice all your intelligence and to abandon your family just for a life of bliss, that is utterly selfish."
     
    What I would then say in return to that person would be that he/she deserves to fucking die.  He/she has been cruel and disrespectful towards my absence of pleasure and I will then be cruel and disrespectful in return.  He/she is nothing profound, innocent, or great.  He/she just lives life like some insensitive pathetic inferior robot doing chores and tasks.  Furthermore, he/she calls me selfish when that is not the case at all.  I have just as much value as any other innocent person which gives me every right to have focus and value towards myself.  I would still have just as much value towards other innocent people even despite the fact that I have chosen to become that bunny.  I deserve to live that blissful life for all my suffering of this depression and absence of pleasure I had for so very long.
     
    This is one of the very reasons why I should detest the vast majority of humanity that consists of people like this and take advantage/harm them all I want if it meant bringing me pleasure.  Since these types of people have treated me as though they are just simply observing someone separate from them and their lives as though they really don't care about me, then I would have every right to return the favor.  I would have every right to not look at them as human beings.  I would have every right to instead look at them as though they are nothing more than separate mocking/insulting chemical processes and atoms and for me to just walk over to those chemical processes and atoms and destroy them.  It would be no different than some scientific device that speaks to you and says to you things you do not want to hear.  You would just take that device and smash it.  Therefore, I would smash the heads of these types of people.  They are nothing more than bland speaking robots and deserve to be treated as such.
     
    But a person who has immense value towards their profound feelings of pleasure as well as value towards others, this person would have a completely different attitude.  This person would have a very sensitive, profound, innocent, and great personality.  He/she would instead say to me:
     
    "I have lived my life feeling indescribable profound innocence and joy from nature and the wild.  They are transcending feelings and I can completely understand your loss of these feelings and how utterly devastating it is for you.  I meditate to experience these profound feelings and I meditate all the beauty of this world and nature into these profound feelings of transcending innocence and joy.  They are more important to me than the air I breathe.  I don't know how I would live without them.  Therefore, I really and truly pray that you get your full feelings of pleasure back to you in life.  If I were to just tell you to accept your absence of pleasure which would be something I would never even begin to consider doing and would never consider telling you that, then that would make me the most cruel and insensitive inferior human being ever."
     
    So as you can see here, this new person has a completely different personality that defines him/her as a true caring and profoundly innocent human being.  Not only does he/she have immense value towards his/her feelings of pleasure, but he/she also has immense value towards others.  Therefore, having both immense value towards your feelings of pleasure as well as others is what defines you as the truly profound and great human being.  People who don't have immense value towards pleasure are bland inferior robots and those who only have value towards themselves and not others are also bland inferior robots.  Therefore, having the equal amount of value towards your pleasure and others is what defines you as the truly great human being.
     
    Now you might be thinking something here.  You might be thinking that this person who has immense value towards feelings of pleasure I quoted above could also be someone bland and cruel.  For example, if there was someone who valued something in his/her life and it was something that defined his/her life and humanity for him/her, then the person who has immense value towards pleasure (who we would call "he"), this person could have no value towards what the other person (who we would call "she") values.  He might go up to her and say to her something such as what was in that first quoted message something like "Tough luck.  Accept and deal with it."  Therefore, if he had an attitude like this towards her, then she would have every right to return the favor and harm him.  Her very life and humanity has been belittled and mocked by him and he should pay the price.  Or, at least, she should scream at him at first.  But if he does not shut up and respect her values and just keeps on insisting that she accept and move forward in life anyway, then she would have every right to deem him as no longer someone innocent and she would have every right to harm him.
     
    In conclusion, I would like to say one last thing here which is that some people would say that there are greater things in life than pleasure such as intelligence, knowing the truth, etc.  But pleasure is also something very profound as well.  Feelings of joy, love, motivation, transcendence, etc. are all very profound feelings and should not be demeaned, belittled, and tossed aside.
     
  16. This is where you are wrong.
    You this goes back to what I was saying in the previous post.

    You used the word "value" when describing Beethoven. That's interesting because it shoes that you don't understand what pleasure is.

    I might say that Beethoven took "pleasure" in expressing his pain through music.

    This is what I was talking about. You must choose to take pleasure in thinks. Not seek things that grant pleasure.

    Happiness is a choice.

    See here what you are essentially doing is "chosing" to look at the shadows. Instead you should look for the light.
    Go outside and enjoy the world. You are making up an idea that is your "ideal pleasure" and assuming without this or something similar, you can never feel pleasure.

    You have convinced yourself that you need "something" to be happy.
    You see now you are on the right track.

    You must realize bunnies have problems. They fear being hunted, they need food, and in the winter they don't heating.

    You chose to look at the plus sides of being a bunny.

    Fact is you can chose to go live like that right now. Stop letting the wolves get you down.
    Its clear that your main issue is a sense of uselessness/helplessness

    You just gotta work on your self esteem and find your happiness

    -yuri
     
  17.  
    I am now going to continue on here with something very important that I want you and others to respond to as well:
     
    My feelings of pleasure (all good feelings) are the only things that matter to me in my personal life and are the only things that define me and my life as truly good.  Nothing else defines me or my life as truly good at all.  Not even me living on for others in life and helping them out despite my absence of pleasure.  I am going to explain more on this.  But in the meantime, I will say something here which is that my sole reason for being a composer was because of my profound feelings of pleasure that I value so much.  There was no other reason for me being a composer or even living for that matter.  My pleasure is the only reason for me living.  My pleasure to me is more important than the air I breathe.  But now I have lost all my pleasure and there are never any brief moments of any given pleasure at all.  It is called anhedonia and I think it is a negative symptom of schizoprhenia.  So I have given up being a composer since I no longer find any good reason to become a composer without my feelings of pleasure to derive from my compositions.
     
    I am going to give an analogue here of my situation of valuing my pleasure as the only good thing in my life and me giving up being a composer because I have lost it.  It would be no different than if Beethoven said:
     
    "Hearing is all there is to life.  Without it, then you, your compositions, and your life are all nothing more than dead silence and nothing truly good at all.  My hearing is the only reason for me living since it is a very profound thing to me.  It is more important than the air I breathe.  I would end my life if I have somehow lost it.  I can hear all the beauty of nature and I will soon be able to hear the majestic compositions that I am going to make.  I can do amazing things with my hearing.  Therefore, I am going to do just that.  I am going to do something amazing with my hearing.  I am now going to choose to become a composer and create these amazing compositions I have thought of. 
     
    I am going to give a message to the world as well here.  I am going to say to the world that deafness is completely uneccessary and that you can create great compositions through your hearing and they can turn out just as good or even better than those composers who have composed through their hearing loss.  Hearing is the only good thing in life and it is that much more important that we find cures for hearing loss since you, your life, and your compositions would all be nothing more than dead silence to you.  It would be all be nothing truly good at all without your hearing.  Therefore, we need to find cures for hearing loss since the only thing that makes you a great composer and artist would be your hearing since any work of art you create would be nothing truly good at all to you without your hearing since it would all be nothing more than dead silence.  You can still see your works of art and such.  But you being able to see them is nothing good at all since only hearing defines us and our lives as being truly good.  All other things in life are all nothing more than dead silent images and such without our hearing."
     
    Beethoven then begins to learn how to compose and is in the process of composing his music.  But he then becomes deaf and completely gives up being a composer since his hearing was the only thing that was important to him in his life and was the only thing to him that made him and his life good and worth living and nothing else.  He only finds good value in his hearing and he finds no good value in anything else in his life without his hearing at all.  Not even his own personality and his own artistic genius is anything good at all to him without his hearing.  Not even him composing for other people and having them have something amazing to hear is anything good at all in his life without his hearing.  It would be good for the other people who are able to hear his compositions.  But his own personal life would be inferior, worthless, and of no good value whatsoever to him without his hearing.  
     
    Other people then come up to Beethoven and try to encourage him.  They say to him that there is more to life than hearing and that there are other good things in life to live for and that he can still find good value in being a composer even without his hearing.  But he doesn't believe them at all.  He has absolutely convinced himself that hearing is all there is to life and is the only thing of good value in life.  It is a firm and strict personal value and belief he has and no one can ever change it.  If anyone tries to tell him to accept his hearing loss, then that advice would be an utter insult and a mockery to Beethoven since he would never live to accept having lost the one and only thing of true good value to him and his life.  Beethoven would then become enraged towards anyone who tells him to accept his hearing loss.  Beethoven has strictly decided that if he can't fully regain his hearing, then he is going to end his life and he won't have it any other way.  From there, Beethoven continues to find no good value whatsoever in anything in his life without his hearing since everything to him in his life is now nothing more than dead images of silence.  His only reason for living now would be him living to try and fully recover his hearing and nothing else.  In the event that his hearing does fully recover, he will go back to being a composer and will find full good value in his life and composing dream once again.  But in the event that his hearing doesn't fully recover, then he will end his life right then and there and no one is going to change his mind otherwise.
     
    Therefore, this situation with Beethoven is the exact same situation with me here.  My feelings of pleasure are the only good profound things to me and my life.  I have lost all of them due to anhedonia (absence of pleasure).  My only reason for living and my only reason for being a composer was because of pleasure.  I wanted to not only experience pleasure from music and the compositions I would have made, but I also wanted to tap into and channel my feelings of pleasure to create emotionally powerful compositions of any type whether they be dark, gothic, happy, etc.  It would be my pleasure in dark, gothic, happy, etc. things that would create these types of compositions.  But now that I have lost all my pleasure, then I have strictly decided that I would end my life if I can never fully recover my pleasure.  Therefore, I am now living to do all I can to try and fully recover my pleasure.  Only if my pleasure is fully recovered would I then go back to being a composer and find full good value in me, my life, and my composing dream once again.
     
  18. No. You are wrong. You didn't lose anything. You gave it up.

    -yuri
     
  19.  
    I honestly don't believe there is any reason for me being a composer without my feelings of pleasure now.  I believe that any form of pleasure and joy that comes from our perceptions alone without our actual feelings of pleasure and joy are all nothing more than just thoughts.  I am now going to explain why this is:
     
    I am now going to explain how feelings of pleasure are the only true good things in life and how the version of happiness and pleasure that comes from everything else in life besides our feelings of pleasure are not the genuine form of happiness and pleasure at all.
     
    If, let's pretend, that you had no thoughts or intelligence whatsoever.  You also have no feelings at all whether they be feelings of pleasure or suffering.  All your sensations such as sight, smell, etc. would then be nothing more than just sensations.  There is no pleasure or happiness at all to them.  They are just simple messages to the brain.  Different functions of the brain are responsible for different things.  The area of the brain responsible for sight or hearing in of themselves do not experience any feelings of pleasure or suffering.  Feelings of pleasure and suffering come from different areas of our brains.  Feelings of love, joy, or any other type of pleasurable feelings come from the limbic system.  They come from specific regions of the brain.  
     
    The areas of our brains responsible for thinking and perception do not experience any pleasure or suffering in of themselves since they are a different function of our brains.  Any form of pleasure, suffering, or happiness that is claimed to come from our thinking and perceptions alone without our actual feelings of pleasure or suffering, that is nothing more than just a thought.  It is nothing more than just a simple message (like a word or a phrase) of pleasure or suffering.  There is no genuine experience of pleasure or suffering from our thoughts and perceptions alone without our actual feelings of pleasure or suffering.  All we are experiencing here is nothing more than just the simple message (perception) of pleasure or suffering.
     
    That perception in of itself does not yield any genuine pleasure or suffering.  To say that it does would be no different than saying that, since we can still perceive sound waves from our sight alone when we are deaf (such as if we were to look at sound waves coming from an audio device), then that means we can actually hear the sound through our sight alone without our actual hearing.  So as you can see here, this would be false.  It wouldn't be us hearing from the perception of those sound waves through our sight.  Or, in this case, it wouldn't be us experiencing pleasure from our perception of what pleasure is through our thoughts and such alone.  Instead, it would just all be the simple message of what sound and pleasure are and not the actual genuine experience of it.
     
    So as you can see here, people are only fooling themselves into thinking that there is a form of genuine pleasure, happiness, or suffering that comes from our thoughts and everything else in life without our actual feelings of pleasure and suffering.  Any form of peace, joy, love, happiness, suffering, misery, etc. that is said to come from our perceptions alone without the actual feelings of them are nothing more than just thoughts and that is it.  In other words, we would not be expressing love to someone without our actual feelings of love.  They would just be nothing more than expressions of the idea of what love is.  That being, love can only be a feeling and nothing else.  All those expressions that are claimed to be love without the feelings of love are what we would instead refer to as simple acts of help and aid and nothing more.  I, myself, have lost all my feelings of love as well since anhedonia is something that completely shuts down the reward system in the brain.
     
    In conclusion, even if we somehow could experience pleasure or suffering from our thoughts, perceptions, and everything else, then that could only be if we had our actual feelings of pleasure and suffering to do so.  Otherwise, we wouldn't be able to experience any form of pleasure or suffering without our actual feelings of pleasure or suffering.

     
  20. You are going in circles op.

    and you are conveniently victimizing yourself instead of taking responsibility for your own happiness

    I know people like you in real life. Its almost like you wwant to be a victim. That's why you are here telling us how much your life sucks.

    -yuri
     

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