AZOMITE and Aluminum Toxicity?

Discussion in 'Growing Organic Marijuana' started by Carolina dingo, Mar 16, 2015.

  1. I keep reading about the dire consequences of aluminum toxicity in conjunction with Azomite use to the point of near hysteria and total avoidance. I've been using it for years with no problems.

    I mean, I know it CAN happen, but has anyone actually experienced it? It just seems you would need a massive over-application of Azomite or humic acid, or both for this to happen. I'm talking about sane amounts being used.

    So, has anyone actually experienced aluminum toxicity from using Azomite?

    Cd
     
  2. This is going to be a lonely thread buddy...  [​IMG]
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Have the same feeling. LOL

    Sorta like the TMV (tobacco mosaic virus), scares that pop up every couple of years. Lots of hearsay, but nothing documented.

    Cd
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4.  
     
    Aluminum solubility in the soil is entirely (100%) dependent upon a very low pH (<4.0). That being the case, if a grower had soil pH in that range (<4.0) then surely there would be problems, Al perhaps being one of many.
     
    But the takeaway here should be Al solubility requires a very acid soil solution to make it available.
     
    Now here is one other thing to consider specific to Azomite, Al is a cation sporting 3 positive charges (Al+++). These ions will be adsorbed on the clay and compost particles carrying a negative charge. Thus a lot of non-soluble Al+++ has the potential for using up a lot of (-) negative anions which in turn would negatively impact CEC potential of an otherwise well constructed organic soil.
     
    We all know that Azomite is a brand name which uses a high alumina silica base to which other minerals are added to. There's probably better ways.
     
    So yes, a low pH soil will definitely make Al soluble. If the soil pH is >4.0 there's little to no chance of uptake.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  5. #5 waktoo, Mar 17, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2015
    I do believe this whole hysteria started with someone posting test analysis from the folks over at BioAg pertaining to the dissolution and chelating effects that fulvic acids have on the aluminum contained within aluminosilicate clays. The effect is independent of soil pH, and chelation makes unstable metallic ions like aluminum bio-available to plants, and "protects" them from being adsorbed to the soil colloid where they can only be adsorbed by plants through hydrogen ion exchange.
     
    I'm sure someone around here has the link to that report...

    Something that I've been wondering about "chelated" ions is whether or not the chelating molecule (humic/fulvic acids, EDTA, etc...) is adsorbed by the plant root along with the chelated ion, as one whole unit, or does the "chelator" open up to release the nutrient ion to the root adsorption site, and remain in the soil solution? 
     
    When considering chemical reactions that happen between the soil solid phase and the soil solution, concentration and proximity must always be taken into account. Chemical analysis for these things are always done in test tubes in a controlled laboratory environment. Are chelated aluminum ions unable to react with other ions in the soil solution? Through chelation are they only available to be adsorbed by plants or microbes? I really don't know. That determination is still beyond my learning experience...  [​IMG]
     
    Aluminum toxicity in plants is supposed to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 1 ppm, and it does have a phenotypical effect on plants that is visually noticeable.
     
    You'll know that aluminum has reached toxic levels in your plants way before they are consumed...
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. My understanding of how chelates work is once the molecule is bound by the chelator and the bound molecule comes into contact with a plant root hair the chelator releases the molecule for absorption and the chelator returns to the soil solution ready to go another round of "clawing up" or chelating as it were.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  7.  
    Do you know if there is hydrogen/nutrient ion exchange during this process, similar to the exchange that occurs between root hairs and the soil colloid?
     
    Or is it purely a contact thing, no "choice" made by the plant whatsoever?
     
  8. So this study/test was more about what could happen with the over application of humic/fulvic acids with aluminosilicate clays and Azomite ended up being cast as the villain, rather than just an effect of the real villain of over application? Poorly worded, but more or less?

    With what Possuum noted with the pH, I think one would notice problems well before the >4.0 pH threshold was reached. I'm guessing here, but it seems a safe guess.

    Cd
     
  9. I believe the common thought on this subject is better sources can be found for cheaper so why not better safe then sorry?

    Awesome convo so far guys, Wak and TJ always make me feel dumb lol.
     
  10. #10 Possuum, Mar 17, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 17, 2015
    I dont recall but i can probably feret that out if you like.My money is on "on contact".


    I think Azomite gets a bad wrap. Withstanding discussion of chelating agents Al+++ is insoluble in solution at pH >4.0 say most documentation. I think most would agree that a plant would begin exhibiting poor health beginning around 5.5 and less.

    I think it worthwhile to note that humic acid is achieved at a pH of 4.0 (in solution) and FA is achieved with the non-precipitated HA solution at a pH of 2.0. These organic acids are very powerful, not fully understood, and when growing a plant or a tree in a container one would be wise to be careful with humate and should avoid FA altogether for soil application.

    My opinion FWIW. Otherwise, Azomite? Sure. Al toxicity? Safe bet not if used sparingly ( 2-3 tbsp max in a 5 gal. Better yet 1-2)

    Cheers!
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11.  
    [​IMG]
     
    How're things, dude?
     
  12. TJ hasn't dropped in, but Possuum got me feeling dumb @ reply#4 and WAK followed with the post right after. LOL

    I'd have to question the 'common thought' on the better and cheaper bit. Azomite does have all the minerals and trace elements and is pretty cheap till shipping gets involved. But, that's a different thread.

    Like Possuum, I feel it's getting a (undeserved), bad rap and the purpose of this thread is to explore that. FWIW

    Cd
     
  13.  
    Cd maybe you already know this but for those that don't there's a 'better/best' approach one can take with organic gardening that doesn't exist as readily in other forms of gardening where more exacting precision is required. Even using only 'better' products, textures, formulae, amendments, "nutrients", etc., a gardener can still grow a very impressive garden. Azomite, though widely used in a variety of agricultural and horticultural settings, is labeled a 'better' product when compared to a custom mineral mix that is 'best' (and perhaps rightfully so). I say this to both remind folks who have the 'best' and encourage those that can only get access to 'better', that 'better' this-n-that will still grow a proud personal use bounty of cannabis. "We" shouldn't forget that I think.
     
    Can Azomite be used in moderation to safely grow cannabis without concern of Al toxicity to the plant or Al toxicity from smoking? All other things being equal and no FA or other chelating agent involved? I say yes. What do I base that vote on - I've studied a lot of plant tissue analysis reports on a wide range of edible fruit and vegetables and Al is so rarely recorded it seemingly is a non-issue. If we use spray deodorant on a daily basis we are absorbing more Al than we get from eating food and smoking all day.
     
    FWIW. [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] ... GO Better! ... Aspire to Best! ... [​IMG]
     
    • Like Like x 2
  14. #14 Anatman, Mar 18, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2015
    I'm still not understanding how pH affects Al3+'s solubility. [​IMG]
    http://www.spectrumanalytic.com/support/library/ff/Soil_Aluminum_and_test_interpretation.htm
     
    Enzyme activity?
    http://www.worthington-biochem.com/introbiochem/effectsph.html
     
    H+ ions?
     
  15. I think there's a whole lot to understand and I'm confident I'm not the right one to explain it. I'll try.

    If you were to take small pieces of aluminum foil (Al+++) and place in a glass then pour just enough potassium hydroxide, or similar high base liquid (pH 12-14), the aluminum foil will react, bubble and fizz, and when its completed the aluminum foil will have dissolved and will appear to be gone. Similarly, soil chemistry is very dynamic and acids and bases are in constant flux in the soil and particularly so in the rhizosphere. IOW, soil pH change is constant.

    Aluminum is an element and as such is never destroyed. Rather its form changes chemically like other elemental forms can not be destroyed but can be changed by swapping electrons with other elements. Al+++ is the third most abundant element in the earths crust and as such its certainly a problem for agriculture. Horticulture probably not as much.

    So bottom line is I'm not the right guy to explain it as well as an organic chemist.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. I don't have much to add in the way of what is happening between the Al and organic acids but i do have test results. After using Azomite a little over 18mo in my soil, at the rate of 1/2-1c per cf, I now have 400ppm of Al in my soil. I admended my soil after every other harvest.

    Is that bad? Idk, according to some people yes, I would rather play it safe and have stopped using powdered Azomite. I still throw in granulated Azomite when cooking up new soil, at 1/3-1/2c per cf. I'm also using rock dust, kelp, and seaweed extract, so plenty of minerals. At such low application rate of the granulated Azomite I feel safer. I'll get new soil tests in a couple months.
     
  17. How do the plants look? ^^^^

    Wet
     
  18. So the idea is that you'd see signs of aluminum toxicity in the plant before it accumulated in any significant levels to have negative health effects?
     
  19. This is what I've read, like the plant got blasted with Roundup or something.

    Personally I've never seen or experienced aluminum toxicity, so ?????

    Wet
     
  20. #20 GiMiK, Mar 20, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 20, 2015
    ALUMINUM TOXICITY
     
    Aluminum toxicity can occur in soils that have large amounts of aluminum containing minerals. In such soils, aluminum can dissolve into the soil solution as the soil pH drops below 5.4. In contrast, aluminum solubility decreases dramatically as the soil pH increases above 5.4. As a result, proper management of soil pH can prevent problems associated with aluminum toxicity.
    • Excessive amounts of aluminum can inhibit root development and limit crop growth.
    • Aluminum saturation is an expression which describes the relative abundance of aluminum in the soil.<ul><li>Like base saturation, aluminum saturation is the percentage of the CEC occupies by aluminum. Like all cations, aluminum held by the cation exchange complex is in equilibrium with aluminum in the soil solution.
    • Although the tolerance to aluminum varies among plant species, most plants do not tolerate greater than 15% aluminum saturation.
    • However, certain crops grown in Hawaii, such as sugarcane, pineapple, corn and ti, can tolerant relatively high levels of aluminum saturation.
    </li></ul>Conditions that cause aluminum toxicity
     
    Aluminum toxicity occurs readily under acidic conditions, especially when pH values are equal to or less than 5.4. In the acidic soils of the tropics, aluminum toxicity may become a serious problem and limit crop yield. Management of soil pH is the key factor in avoiding aluminum toxicities.
    \nhttp://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/mauisoil/c_acidity.aspx
    \n\n\nVery little Al<sup>+++</sup> in the soil solution is required to cause damage to most plants. Few, if any plants grown for commercial purposes in this country will tolerate more than 1.0 ppm of soluble Al<sup>+++</sup>, and most will have some problems at levels greater than 0.5 ppm.
    \nSince Al is the most abundant element in the soil, but the soluble Al<sup>+++</sup> is the toxic form, we need to know how much Al<sup>+++ </sup>is present in the soil and what controls its availability to plants. The availability of Al<sup>+++ </sup>is not completely understood, but certain soil factors are known to have a significant effect.
    \n• The total amount of Al present in a particular soil type
    • The soil pH
    • The types and amounts of clay in the soil
    • Soil organic matter
    \nThe soil pH is probably the single most important management factor controlling the amount of Al<sup>+++</sup> in the soil solution. Soluble Al is present in the soil when the pH begins to drop below pH 6.0. However, it is inconsequential in the vast majority of soils until the pH drops below pH 5.5. Even then, it is rarely a problem until the soil pH drops below pH 5.0. However, the amount of soluble Al increases dramatically in nearly all soils as the soil pH drops below pH 5.0. In these extremely acid soils, only those species adapted to acid soils (such as blueberries, cranberries, and acid-loving ornamentals) or the few crop species bred to tolerate high soil Al levels can be expected to do well.
    \n[​IMG]
    \nhttp://www.spectrumanalytic.com/support/library/ff/Soil_Aluminum_and_test_interpretation.htm
    \n[SIZE=12.8000001907349px]http://extension.psu.edu/plants/nutrient-management/images/how-soil-ph-affects-availability-of-plant-nutrients-and-aluminum/image_view_fullscreen[/SIZE]
    \n\n\nIt seems to come down to the available Al in the soil solution not the total, which is dictated by how acidic the soil is.
    \n[SIZE=12.8000001907349px]I also agree that more issues would occur than just Al toxicity at those pH levels at which Al+++ is present in the soil solution, so diagnoses would be difficult. [​IMG][/SIZE][SIZE=12.8000001907349px] [/SIZE]
     
    • Like Like x 3

Share This Page