Agreed, but i think you helped prove my point that most leo/mil people aren't always into guns and will only shoot to qualify. look at all the police trade in guns that are handled alot but hardly shot. I to shoot alot and when you add adrenaline, ftf/fte drills, off hand shooting etc. Putting accurate rounds on target can be troublesome. I'm not speaking so much about this incident but the general "OMG WHY DIDN'T THEY SHOOT I'M IN THE LEG!" or "OMG WHY DID THEY SHOOT SO MUCH!" Attitude most people have.
You proved my point also. My dad loves guns he is a vietnam infantry veteran and police veteran. Guns, shooting, hunting, tactical shooting, and paintball were the only things we did. Most LEO and veterans i know are extremely into their guns and the culture. I don't know one LEO or vet that shot just to qualify as you die if you don't shoot. Like i said cops should only shoot if they ARE IN CRITICAL LIFE THREATENING DANGER!! they don't shoot you in the leg because they shouldn't be firing one round unless they need to kill the person. Firing your weapon is an absolute last resort and should only be used when you are certain you might die. These days cops shoot anyone who resists or gives them a legal reason. That guy posed zero threat to any of them those fucking cowards. My point is cops shouldn't be shooting people who don't have a lethal weapon and aren't in range to do lethal or traumatic damage. The cops these days will shoot anyone at anytime for anything and statistically they will get off. I've seen them shoot a guy with a broom, a 72 year old man grabbing his cane, children, dogs, unarmed people. There's a reason many military and veterans really really dislike law enforcement. It's shameful.
Not to mention all the high ups in law enforcement being caught for bribery and whatever. Scums, just like any other politician. They're above the law.
In this case it looked like the dude could have been pulling a gun when he turned around. They did jump the gun a bit but this time it was the dudes own fault.
Hey, just curious why you didn't answer my question, yet vaguely referenced your perspective of my attitude in this post. It begs the question, did you watch the video? At 0:18, you think the cops fired an appropriate number of rounds at the perpetrator?
I'm just gonna take the bullshit and say, the "appropriate number of rounds" is the amount of rounds that puts the perpetrator down. I'm not talking about this video specifically, I'm not giving an opinion about this specific situation here. I'm just saying... if you have to shoot (and ya'll can argue about whether or not they had to in this instance) then you shoot to end the threat. That means you shoot until the suspect is down. Regardless of how many shots that takes. You don't shoot a couple times and then wait and see. That's not smart, that isn't how this works.
I guess, in this specific situation, I believe I could, with a couple shots, successfully remove a threat that was 5-10 feet from me. I guess I also expect that professionals trained specifically to maintain public safety could also do that. Hypothetically, of course.
That's the thing though, if you are trying to remove a threat... you don't guess. You shoot until he/she is down. The same thing for people who concealed carry. If you have to shoot, you shoot until the threat is ended. There is no room for maybe. You don't shoot a couple times and then wait and see if the threat is gone. If you have to fire your weapon, then you make damn sure you're not in any danger anymore before you stop firing. That's one of the reasons why the whole "why didn't they just shoot him in the leg" thing drives me fucking insane. If you can take the time to try to aim for the legs and hope it works then you're not in enough immediate danger to fire your weapon in the first place. If the threat is immediate and serious, you'd be a fucking idiot to try to shoot at their legs.
And if you're not just aiming for a leg, then you're aiming for anything on them. I still don't get why any more than a couple shots are necessary. Yes, you're potentially in danger. Yes, your blood is rushing from the adrenaline. Can they not think while they're shooting? Does it take 8 shots to register they've hit their target? Or 8 shots to actually hit the target? The bullet is going to hit that person by the time our ears register the noise, and our eyes see them flinch from the bullet. Does their potential recognition of contact mean their reaction time is worse than a typical gamer's? However I look at it,all I see is overkill. I understand reacting to the situation and shooting, but it was pretty obvious, pretty quickly, that he wasn't shooting. So why did it take 8 shots, 4 seconds, to realize that? Seems quick, but when your adrenaline is pumping, time dilation is pretty crazy. I just don't understand how the excess can be okay.
It's not about how many shots it takes to hit the target, it's about continuing to fire until the threat is ended. You don't shoot and say "oh that hit him... let's see if it stops him" Adrenaline can make people keep going for far too long after they're hit... that's why you keep firing until they're down and you know for sure that they are definitely not a threat anymore.
They are trained to shoot until the mag is empty or the person is on the ground. I said this already. It's why firearms are a last resort.
But why would he be using the rock the entire time? The man was running away. Thing that alot of people don't understand is that when you're in that situation wouldn't you try and defend yourself? When the cops use force your first instinct is to defend yourself and make the danger stop. You have to fight everything to just lay down and put your hands behind your back when you're being attacked. So i understand how many of these people who get shot. I would probably do the same thing.
Well then prepare to get shot. You don't defend yourself against police unless you are willing to get killed for it. That's just a rule of nature. In their line of work they know for a fact that people are going to try to kill them. So why would they wait till its too late? Should they have to wait until they already have a bullet in them before they can use their own weapon?
Let's say you have your sights trained on a person finger on the trigger. The person starts to draw a firearm. Who wins the fight there? Especially when there are 3+ of you. Maybe it's my take on things and how i would handle it. Cops these days are far far far to trigger happy. So they shot a man with a rock because he turned around fast. They shot an old man grabbing a cane out of the bed of his truck, they shot a guy waving a broom at them, they shot a young male running away, a teen somehow shot himself in the head in the back of a cop car hand cuffed. They have vests for a reason. If you weren't willing to put the public's life before your own you shouldn't have joined the force.
If you think someone is drawing a gun on you then that person stops being the public and becomes the enemy. Yes cops are too trigger happy. But I don't think people understand what it is like to have a job where people try to murder you. You are gonna be jumpy. Especially here in the states. This is gangland. Cops get killed all the time. One got killed here in KC just a few weeks ago. Got blown away during a routine traffic stop. That's what they have to deal with, and I don't think most people understand what that is like. Yeah, they pull their guns and shoot in many many cases where they shouldn't have. But this isn't one of those cases.
He visibly faltered after the first shot. By the third shot, he was halfway to the ground. 5 more shots were taken. There was no threat by the 3rd shot. So then adrenaline and group mentality were the fuel for the firing of the guns. Not police I want in my area. I don't care how it's spinned, they used excessive force on the guy. Yeah, he was stupid for what he did. But they overdid it.
Cops are not regular citizens. They shouldn't be so easily threatened. There is SOP for a reason. There is training for a reason. It's not to throw out of the window when you're afraid. It should be muscle memory. You shouldn't even have to think. You're a cop. Your job is to put yourself in dangerous positions to protect others. You should use your training and do your job and be who you signed up to be. I think its time people stop giving cops a pass who fail to do their job because they're "afraid."
I deal with situations more dangerous than what most cops do. I've had weapons brandished, drawn, racked, and aimed at me before. I have never once shot someone for reaching for a weapon that may or may not exist. I've had several times i could have legally gunned a man down and had no issues yet i didn't because i value life and understand it from the other side. I will not fire on a human unless i know for sure they have the intent and ability to end my life which is rarer than yo might think. If me an untrained, PTSD riddled, insane 23 year old can refrain from lighting someone up i think a officer of the law should be able to do the same. (edit: Let me state because i felt the need to clarify, i am not trying to act hard or talk up the things i've done, none of that. I could care less how others view me in that way and in all honesty i'd rather noone know. I only pointed this out because it's important and i have done and been a part of some very very intense and nasty moments. I won't elaborate beyond that but a cops job is quite quaint and safe in comparison.) You know what would happen to me if i open carried and shot everyone that reached for a weapon? And yes i do know what it's like. I know what war in the streets is like. I know what the worst parts of humanity are like. My father served 3 years as a police officer and had several chances and reasons to open fire yet he never had to fire one round on duty. He actually talked one man into going into treatment at a psychiatric facility instead of shooting him on the spot for having a loaded handgun in his hand. That man is still alive today and raised an amazing family. Cops now are weak, scared, and hand picked to be the way they are. It's by design. You know how the majority of officer fatalities happen? VEHICLE ACCIDENTS mostly them being randown or hit on the highway. Very few officers are shot and killed especially by someone they have surrounded and weapons on. Most officers who get killed are ambushed or shot at with no warning. Go find me 5 examples of a guy that is surrounded and having a standoff and killed one or more officers. I'd be insanely happy to see that. Maybe they should focus on fixing traffic laws and people's driving rather than killing civi's with rocks. In this situation the man should not have been shot. Like i said before i could have disarmed and taken that man down MYSELF with no weapons. He had a fucking rock. If he did pull and firearm it takes less than 2 seconds for me to draw and fire within 15 feet and kill or maim my target. That was a pathetic display of apathy and cowardice. They put people down faster than they do animals. Why does everyone bring up the fact cops have families to go home to and such? sure they do and they accepted an oath and duty when they joined the force to protect and serve. It's their job to put the public first. When you don a badge you should be prepared to die for your community. What alot of people forget is that these people they kill have families too. They have children, moms, sisters, brothers, best friends, grand parents, cousins, professors, bosses, and so on. Why is that cops life so much more valuable than all of ours? 90% of what police do saves noone. Look up average response times of police and EMTs then tell me who really protects and serves. How many crimes have policed stopped mid event or before? How many times have police stopped a school shooting? i can keep going. It took police 1 hour and 45 minutes to respond to my home being burglarized. I tracked down the culprit for them and called them. They let him walk away because the paper work hadn't been filed yet. I attempted to get the same person in trouble for stealing an old man who is disabled with alot of money and his disabled children's bank accounts and identities but they "didn't have the time" to talk to me. In my town the police had a 4 hour stand off at a 3 bedroom residential home in a subdivision a few months ago. They brought out a full APC and had a sniper on the gunner's turret about 50 feet from the house. Now why does a city of less than 40k people need a full military APC with turret (and the capability to mount heavy weapons on it still) for? Best part? Turns out noone was even in the house. They had a stand off with around 110,000$ worth of equipment with an empty home. You give me full SWAT gear or some infantry digs i'll be one fearless mother fucker. Not many civilians have either the weapons or the ammo to punch through that armor. With a normal military vest you can take a 7.62x39 round to the chest from 75 yds or so and be perfectly fine. You give me a swat get up and a full undersuit of the new dragonscales and i'll clear a building by myself. Why does everyone make very excuse to justify or exonerate police from being held accountable for what they do? Me personally i am terrified of police. Why is the public afraid of those appointed to keep us safe? Most of the charges they post are purely to make money or incarcerate someone. The main point of the judicial system is to make money. Hell even very high standing judges and officials have talked about how fucked our system is. The police are the fingers on the hand of the government that keeps us under it's thumb. edit: The true reason i feel empathy and compassion for officers is what they deal with on duty. I am not talking about the guns, drugs, violence, or threat to themselves. I am referring directly to the horrors they have to deal with so civilians don't have to. Responding to a car accident and seeing a 3 year old halfway out the back window with her top half smeared down the highway is something a part of you doesn't come back from. Showing up to a DV call and seeing the children or having to take children away from someone. Going to court to put away bad people who are actual threats. Actually having to kill someone would be another. These are the things i pity and feel for them for. There are good cops and bad cops just like there is good and bad in anything. A good cop will tear themselves apart if they do have to kill someone even if it was justified. A bad cop won't. A good cop will show up to a court room and testify while trying not to break down because they need to be strong for those involved. A good cop knows their population, they have the better interest of their community in mind. Those are the officers i love and call friends and family. Sadly they are few and far between anymore. The job has changed and so have the candidates. The thing i honor most is the duty and weight that officers take upon themselves so that we as civilians don't have to experience such a thing. They keep a stone face and calm demeanor even when they're just as scared or nervous as you are because they know they are supposed to be the ones who take care and lead. They put everyone else before themselves and that is beautiful, that is a real officer of the law and public. Like i said in an earlier post. Go put some research into the 600+ question personality test (which has to be done by a psychoanalyst and is 2500$+) and the kind of profile they look for. They actually hand pick people who fit a certain category and will deny or reject applicants based on if they fit that profile. I haven't been able to get my hands on a document or example of what criteria they look for but from what my professor told me it's quite terrifying who they prefer. Top 3 jobs for psycho/sociopaths: CEO, Law/Mili, Psychiatric workers. She had people try and pay her to train them to pass the personality test.