There is one impossible fact

you are right. Which is kind of what I failed but tried to say.

Regardless if which of our world views is correct, both would result in the same.outcome. practically speaking the universe is in fact infinite in all regards, even if its not, we wouldn't know

-yuri

 

So do you admit existence can be infinite? If you truly believe it to be infinite in all aspects, why limit yourself to one singularity? The big bang and the idea that it came from a singularity came to be based on the observation that space is expanding. When we first looked out there, it looked like everything exploded away from us.. hence the big bang. Before it was called the big bang from a singularity, it was called a cosmic explosion from the primordial atom. The rate of expansion is pretty much what we based the age of the universe off of and assume that the big bang was the cause of the expansion.. when we really don't know, hence dark energy. That is energy that is still unknown to us.

Because we created an age for the universe.. we should be seeing galaxies that are only 2 billion years old that are 12 billion light years away.. and we do see young galaxies, but we also see galaxies that appear to be much older. Galaxies that look like they are 10+ billion years old yet sitting 10+ billion light years away. That shouldn't happen.. so what do they do? They say "oh, well that just means the early universe after the big bang formed extremely fast for an unknown reason". The reason being is because they have been there for 10+ billion years.. and there never was a beginning singularity or primordial atom. It was always existing and only appears to be 14 billion years old due to the rate of expansion.. and I am willing to bet that within 100 years we will have progressed our technology to where we can see galaxies 13-14 billion light years away and will end up finding many of them are actually several billion years old.. because the age of the universe is relative to the rate of expansion.

An infinite universe is literally unlimited.. so don't limit yourself.

 

You limit the infinite when you say there is no infinite being. Whats the difference? Btw im not trolling ya or attacking... just wondering. I kno you dont believe in god but that is just mans attempt to understand and define the infinite.

 

Be forewarned.. if you use the word 'infinity' when trying to discuss what it means to be infinite, I will just ignore it and mentally block you from discussing an infinite universe for as long as the infinite universe infinitely exists. Lol, we've 'been there done that' enough and the concept of infinity was created before we even knew our solar system was part of a galaxy.. which is just one of countless other galaxies.. and during a time when astronomers thought the band's of the Milky Way were part of the atmosphere. I'm not going to try to debate an outdated philosophical definition of something.. just needed to get that out of the way cause based on past experiences you mix your philosophical definition of infinity with what I am trying to say about what it means to be infinite.

Now, with an infinite universe.. there is infinite possibilities. Thing is, they are only possibilities. You can say 'well that means it is only a possibility that there are infinite galaxies and planets and such' but the things we can observe are already reality. We can observe galaxies, so there are infinite galaxies. We can observe planets and moons, so there are infinite planets and moons. We can observe life, so there is infinite life in the universe. We can observe space and time and its influence, so it too is infinite.

We cannot observe God though. God remains a possibility.. and just because something is a possibility in an infinite universe doesn't mean it is reality. A person can go on and on about the endless possibilities.. but they often overlook the fact that just as much as something is possible.. it is just as possible that it doesn't exist. Until a possibility provides physical proof, it remains only a possibility.. one of the endless possibilities of an infinite universe.

 

To preface i am looking for mutual understanding not arguments lol.

That suggests only the observable exists right? What comes first, the potential or the existential?

In my opinion, a rock has potential to exist but relies on the actuality of physical matter. In the same way physical matter had the potential to exist, but from where? Everthing that exists must first have the potential to exist. So in my opinion the infinite potential is as real as the resultant existance of the physical.

To say the physical has infinitely existed means it existed with no prior potential.

I cannot reconcile that logically. It seems to me more logical to say it all came from a truly infinite potential. Existence is then somehow a limited aspect of an infinite potential. The reason something exists is because it is separated from its opposite. Time exists because its negating opposite was symmetrically separated. Light exists because it was separated from its negative, darkness. If they coexist simultaneously then they cancel each other and cease to exist. Like a 10hz wave of two polarities cancel each other and you have no wave.

Thats my current way of thinking anyway. Thoughts?

 

The potential in an infinite universe would be infinite as well. The will be infinite rocks in the universe because we know rocks exist. We know they are made of matter.. and since matter exists, there is infinite matter. We know matter exist due to its mass of atoms.. so there will be infinite atoms in the universe. We know atoms are made up of subatomic particles.. so there will be infinite subatomic particles. We when discover what subatomic particles are made up of, whatever it is we will then know there is an infinite amount of it. And there's a good chance that we will dig deeper and find that the components of subatomic particles are also made up of something else, and upon discovery we will know there is an infinite amount of that. So whatever you look at in terms of its potential, there will be unlimited potential.. and then when you look at the potential of those potentials, there will be an unlimited, infinite amount.. and so forth. Any physical aspect of the universe that you are aware of, there is an infinite amount of potential for it and an infinite amount of it.

And yes, in an infinite universe with infinite potential.. there will always be a force that opposes another force. Now will they meet automatically and walk hand in hand? Not always.. but for every force in an infinite universe, there is an equal and opposing force.

 

Nah..... Op says hey look, there is left and there is right and there must be one !
I choose the unrepresented middle path brother.
 
Your boldness. Why not have you considered the possibility of a principle or law that replaces the necessity for a cause?
 
Everyone's problem is they lack frame of reference, and therefore make assumptions on reality. I honestly do not want to just give you the revelation I have had, it took years of meditation but it slays both atheist and theist explanations, truly.
In short though; I believe you're all wrong forgive my forwardness.
 
 
Your bottomline. It's just a representation of the problem of frame of reference. Atheist know inside them that deities are unneeded to for the function of the Universe, they just do not know how and like wise cannot give you a reason - they cannot give themselves a reason ! But that knowledge is still there, tantalizing and just out of reach for them, so frustrating I imagine.

 

Can you logically find a difference between infinite being and the observation of the infinite space in which being observes itself in? 
 
The only difference between you and anything else is a thought. 

 

i understand all of the words in this but is quite clearly a word fuck!

whoever was the original original poster was, was trying to apear inteligent and cause an arguement.

its posing logic and reason on to somthing thats illogical!

basicly.... we will neva know how it all first started as its imposible to know wether this is the second time or 543rd time.
matter and anti-mater colide (big bang), spew out all this stuff and it turns into galexys etc, then it collapses(big crunch) and turns back into matter and anti-matter, then all over again!

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Grasscity Forum mobile app

 

My apologies. But the thing I recognize as how it actually is took me forever to come to, and it isn't written down directly anywhere.
 
It is such a self evident truth that it makes my jaw drop, but it just seems like a conclusion that either hasn't been come to by others, or-
 
The ones who did chose not to just give it away, just like how I am doing right now. Do yourself a big favor, and if the truth doesn't jump out at you, don't believe it. Only acknowledge it's there.
That should get you going.
 

I like what you posted here, it coincides quite well.

 

I don't see it as limiting myself.

To me, its part of the theory of evolution; which is irrefutable

We have never witnessed anything that has started fully formed.

There is no reason to believe anything different.

The universe must have gone from simple to complex. Infinity is possible within this theory.

-yuri

 

 
BTW this is a great thread OP. Real thought provoking. 
 
But hey, freethinker, let me ask you this personally (based on your comment and all); do you believe that the difference between a mother and its infantile child is a consequent result of that infantile child thinking there's a difference?

 

Ty for that. I still find my position more logically coherent and i know we wont be able to come to terms (try as we have) so ill leave it at that!

 

Religion is intellectual laziness....a shortcut. Every day, MAN is attempting to understand the universe we live in. We look for proofs of our theories, however woefully lacking in imagination and inspiration they may be. To just jump from A to Z and categorically state " we cant understand it, it may be beyond our comprehension, it is the work of GOD" is silly and does not add to our understanding. An " atheist" like you are describing that is CERTAIN of the non existence of God is also being intellectually lazy....perhaps expedient, but certainly AS lazy as you are for your blind belief. The answers are " out there" we just dont see them yet..and may never...but by THINKING you see them now, you are not only mistaken but are perpetrating a ruse.

 

A child has no sense of individuation until around the age of 2.  It's just experiencing for the most part, which is what we're all actually doing until we learn otherwise through false conditioning. 
 
Is there a specific painting that resonates with you that's found to be beautiful in your heart/eyes?  If you do find it to be beautiful then can we take that painting to a science laboratory and test it's beauty confirming your belief that the painting is beautiful by extracting the beauty out of it?  Is this beautiful painting testable?  Or does that beauty actually come from somewhere else..  like as in the one who's looking which makes it beautiful?  Your eternal light of conscious awareness is all there is, external objects where most people  BELIEVE beauty comes from is false and actually not outside ourselves as we've been tricked into believing. 
 
There's only ONE thing going on, infinite conscious awareness of experience with no borders or boundary's.  You are the transparency for which all experience takes place in...one can't exist without the other.  The fact that the body and mind can be perceived is a direct understanding of such.  That which is perceivable cannot actually be you. 
 
When you sleep at night, the body and mind aren't present, however the brain might project a strange dream for your awareness to perceive anyway.  When you wake up, your body and mind are present again and life goes on..right?  So then, were you still there while in deep sleep?  Of course you were, you woke up and the body and mind appeared again.  Now let me ask you, what was still present during deep sleep if the body and mind weren't?  ... 
 
Do self inquiry.  Either youtube it or buy a book called "The Direct Path" by Greg Goode if you need help finding ways to see your true nature.  Turn your attention inward and see whats looking.  That's when the real truth to reality begins.. 

 

 
Maybe not limiting yourself, but limiting your idea of an infinite universe.. but if the universe is infinite in all aspects, what's to say that it wasn't always complex?
 

 
In an infinite universe, there is always the possibility that it is more logically coherent.. but I know that you don't think the universe is infinite, so of course it's not going to seem coherent for you. You don't have to assume the universe is infinite.. just look at it with the "what if" in mind. If it is infinite, then it will have always had infinite potential and will always have infinite potential. I think a lot of people get held up on an infinite universe because it implies that you will never be able to know everything about it.. and that is true, but I don't see that as a negative. I see it as a positive because that means there will always be something new to discover and learn. Even if we figured out immortality and warp speed travel, there would be no end to exploration, discovery, and learning.

 

I dont believe in an infinite universe because its logically inconsistant as far as i can tell. Ive said before i used to believe it was infinite but found arguments (not evidence) for a finite universe more convincing. How can we experience time in a timeless universe? If we posit time in the linear way we experience it, that would mean the present moment is the end of an infinite past and the beginning of the infinite future. If we have past present and future it isnt timeless. It would be like saying we are at he middle of an infinite line. A temporally infinite universe just makes no sense to me.

Btw i still think "what if" i dont close that door on anything, i just have to make sense with what i now know.

 

 
We don't have a past, present, or future, we only have now.
 
We can think of the past but we're remembering it now, we can imagine a future, and we're doing that now, when we experience life, we're doing it now. This is obvious, BUT . . .
 
There is only this moment, not a continuous series of moments following on from the previous one. We are not making our way INTO the objective future. It is the illusion that there is anything more than this moment which lets us experience something that we feel as the passing of time, when in reality, what is happening isn't changing at all, it is WE who are changing in it.
 
What would otherwise appear static, like a film strip passing through a projector giving each frame a moment of light creates the illusion of change, so our shifting in this moment allows consciousness to experience as if what is out there is real, when it is only ever real in here.
 
Does that mean the Universe is infinite? Can you experience infinity outside your idea of it? Isn't this moment all that is?