Icemuds LED Overkill: 3x Advanced LED XTE 300s, Blue Dream, University Hills OG

Discussion in 'Indoor Grow Journals' started by Icemud, Jan 11, 2015.

  1. I looked at the data sheets and yep! I think they are awesome! They definitely would replace a 1000w hid by the looks of it. maybe not as good in terms of coverage area, but they definitely rock HID in terms of intensity and power savings, not to mention LED seem to create tastier and frostier buds IMO

    I will have to get over there and check it out! thats awesome!
     
  2. I honestly really like the XTE's a lot.... better than the Igro's in terms of longevity and reliability, and much much better than the mars II 400's I had...even thought they worked ok, the intensity was nowhere near what the XTE's do... so far the best built, solid panel that runs quiet, uses premium chips, and is extremely bright, with dimming and spectrum manual dials :) whats not to love :) haha
     
  3. #103 HappyFarmer, Mar 23, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 23, 2015
    I  used and advanced LED panel in the past. Without a doubt stellar quality...you also pay for it....grrr
     
    Wish I still had that panel haha.
     
    TBH, for some of us on a $500 budget to get some jars filled.... Mars...other brands...etc work great.
     
    Loving what you are doing over here and just ordered my first refractometer for my outdoor veggie garden. I plan on using it indoors too [​IMG]
     
    Keep doing your thang chicken wang !!!
     
    LEDS def = a superior product imo from what i have seen after growing with HPS etc
     
  4.  
    Thanks for the feedback mate, trying to toss up if it's worth investing 2-3 times as much for a decent LED or just buy a 600 ballast that I know will kick arse. I'd rather the LED's but not if it doesn't add up.
     
  5. Subbed up bro!

    Was over at 420 mag today about to start a journal til i read their policy on pics, vids, etc. how do you do it man? No youtube? They own your pics?

    Please let me know if theres away around that bro. Would love to reach a larger audience if i can help it.

    Thanks brother,
    ~ poke
     
  6. Hey Happy Farmer!
     
    I agree that other panels work, with LED its really knowing how to use them correctly is what either gets the good results or the bad reviews.
     
    Most LED's will grow decent buds, if used correctly, and I find more times than not, when people arent happy with LED grows, its usually due to the company's mis information and false "coverage area" recommendations. But when used correctly and checked with a Par meter, even my Mars II panels showed a lot of very nice buds. The Advanced XTE panels so far are the best ones I have used, but also because they use premium chips they cost more. The avg cost of a epistar diode in bulk is usually .50-$1.00 per chip from sources like mouser, where as Cree and Osram chips in bulk avg 2.20-$3.50 per chip... so definitely an increase in cost.
     
    The difference between them is the performance of the actual chip. Typical epistar, epiled chips rate for a LM80 around 30,000 hours which mean that they lose 20% of their intensity within that time frame, where as the Cree chips typically have a LM95 of 60,000 hours which means that they only lose 5% intensity over 60,000 hours... therefore as an "investment" as LED are high upfront costs, they will actually have a better ROI because they will last double as long "by data sheet numbers" as the majority of panels that use epistar/epiled chips.
     
    The other difference comes to play with actual efficiency where as Cree and osram chips put out almost 1 1/2 to 2x as much light for the same "x" given wattage as the epistar and epiled chips.. So with more photons per watt being emmitted, this means the growing efficiency of the wattage used is increased, since it takes approximately 8 photons to convert one CO2 molecule, photosythesis would be increased with increased photons emmitted. This I found to be pretty key in my Gram/watt results where Mars II was around the same G/w as HID lighting, where as my Advanced LED panels were about 20% more yield G/W.
     
    Either way though, both brands did produce nice buds, and while one brand might be good for some, the other is good for a different crowd. I definitely could say with 100% confidence (due to my experience) is that if you had the budget for Advanced LED panels, they are well worthy of an investment, however if you need budget panels, Mars is a decent choice as well.
     
     
    You got a refractometer!!! Bad ass!! I don't use mine enough but its a very handy tool to see how healthy the plants are, and especially with veggies and garden foods, Its an awesome tool for a quick reference of the quality of produce :) If ya need any questions in that area answered, feel free to direct them my way. I'm by no means a high brix expert, but have done a lot of reading and experimenting in that area and so I may be able to help if you have questions.
     
    One of the best "improvements" for quick results I found was using the combo of 6-5-3 which is the ratio of calcium carbonate:soft rock phosphate: gypsum, along with a ample amount of azomite. This is a quick way to add energy to your soil in the right form for high brix growing. compost teas are great both as a foliar and soil application, and using foliar sprays designed to the right fashion also help supercharge the plant engine. typical foliar sprays include hydrolyzed fish, cold pressed seaweed, high calcium, medium high P and a low amount of N to help with nutrient transport. But even getting deeper into it, there are vegatative and reproductive types of sprays and when used right it will even increase levels more. It all has to do with playing with the cations and anions in the soil and plants. If i remember correctly, cation based nutrients and foliar sprays favor vegatative states of the plant where anion based nutrients favor the fruiting/reproductive stages of growth. So by using this along with different forms of the nutrient delivery achieve the best results. I am taking the experimental approach which I actually should have started with a weak acid soil test and had recommendations as to the right ratios, as high brix growing the soil is very different from most other typical organic soils... A member named Docbud on another forum I am a member of, tested all the "commercial" growing soils this way and found that only Promix HP is "bland enought" to build correctly for high brix.... I did my soil mixes "by eye" using the ratios but not the tests, and the general concepts and have been getting pretty good results  :) definitely not as good as the ones he is using which are designed by him and a lab, but still very good for my grassroots approach :)
     
    I wish all produce we bought in the stores was grown properly, we probably would have no where near the nutritional deficiencies and ailments that plague society today...when i taste a storebought tomato, I know why people don't like veggies...but give me a garden grown tomato and man i eat them like a hungry wolf! hahah :) defintiely share your brix readings with me, i would love to hear of others methods of growing and the results they are getting :)
     
  7. #107 Icemud, Mar 26, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 26, 2015
    Well its really a choice of budget to be honest.. LED produce better buds in terms of quality if used correctly, but they are very costly up front. Where LED is an advantage is they pay off over time with using about 20-30% less electricity than HID lights so your electric bills will be lighter and in terms the LED's pay off over HID which are very costly to run. Don't believe LED claims that they save you like 50% electricity as I have never found this to be true as well as many other growers I've talked with, usually it takes about 65-80% LED watts to HID watts to get equivalent yields so keep that in mind when purchasing. The other benefit of LED's is they last longer than HID bulbs which require yearly replacement at not so cheap prices... a typical good HID bulb is going to run about 70-100$ so in the lifetime of a "cheaper" led you would have to replace about 3-5 bulbs in the same time frame, and with a quality LED it actually will last around double that so you are looking at about 6-10 or more bulb replacements of HID in the equivalant time...
     
    So with those 2 things, LED pays off over time, where HID actually costs more over time, the difference is the start up cost. HID is about 1/3 the price of LED panels, but most LED's will pay themselves off within 1-2 years in terms described above. Also with typically better flavor, more trichomes you definitely will like LED buds more than HID.
     
    Also another thing...LED companies love to claim that LED runs cooler than HID..Not true in fact I've found almost the opposite. First as the laws of physics say, no matter if you have a 100w CFL, 100w toaster, 100w heater and 100w LED, they all will add the same heat load to a enclosed space...so the claims that LED are less heat are kind of moot points.. the only truth to this is that you can use about 20% less wattage in LED grows to achieve similar yields...however the flip side to this is LED's are only about 10-15% more efficient when converting power into light and the byproduct heat, but most of this heat in LED's is transfered to heatsinks and then blown out into your grow area... where as HID systems typically have sealed hoods which extract the heat without releasing it into the grow area(with the exception of radiant heat which LED's do not produce, rather they create heat when the photons are absorbed in the surrounding environment), therefore keep this in mind that the claims that LED are cooler are not really a huge factor, and in fact I find that LED's are actually harder to keep my smaller tent cool because there is no way of directly extracting the heat.
     
     
    Another point to note is this...HID has the advantage of LED in terms of even coverage area, where as LED are more like spotlights and are extremely intense, but do not spread the light as evenly over a coverage area...so when buying the lights, keep this as a consideration factor. What I mean is this...lets say you have a 4x4 tent...with HID you would automatically think 1x 600w or 1x 1000w would be ideal...but with LED the thought process is different. I have yet to see a single LED that covers a 4x4 tent with a even footprint like a HID would, so with this in mind for a LED setup in a 4x4 tent, it actually would benefit more to have 2-4x lights of lower wattages....Like 4x200w lights because it would even out the intensity over the coverage area. Even though there are LED lights that could cover a 4x4 tent and grow nice buds, I have yet to see a 4x4 Par chart that mirrors the even spread of a HID... so keep that in mind as well.
     
    So all in all you have to decide, do I want to start for cheap, but have it cost me more and more, or do I want to invest up front and then save money as time goes on...HID vs LED
     
    There also is a slight learning curve to LED growing, so if you are switching from HID to LED, you may have a crop or 2 it takes to learn how the LED plants use nutrients differently, usually K and Mg from what I have found. Therefore if you have specific regiments you have used for years under HID, you might have to slightly alter them for LED.
     
  8. Yea they are a great forum, but they do have some very strict rules... In a way its good because the community is excellent and it prevents a lot of conflicts and such... I didn't know they didn't allow youtube, I post videos all the time....oops :) lol. I did ask them about the ownership of the photos, actually because a LED company jacked some of my photos without my permission. They told me they actually share a copyright with the actual photo owner, but the actual photo rights are still the person who took the photos :)
     
    I would definitely welcome you to check it out... I used to be a member of like 5 different community's, but now I only frequent 2...here at GC and 420.. so far I really dig the members as everyone is kind, considerate, and not a bunch of young arseholes which seem to loom in other places... so I definitely value being a member here and also there :)
     
    If you do join... write a nice hello post in the new members section and start a journal...thats the best way to meet people there fast, and being that you are who you are, you will make friends very fast there, I have to say an amazing member base.. ps they also have some bad ass monthly contests which you win some really legit things like nutrients, butter makers, glass pieces...all kinds of stuff :)
     
  9. Update time!!!!!


    Day 46 of flowering!!!!

    So I awoke at 5am thirsty as heck and went to my fridge to get some filtered water. SPLASH!!!! dammmit I did it again.... fell asleep with my Reverse Osmosis going and flooded my kitchen.... I really need to stop doing that...hahaha oh well, on the bright side I have the cleanest kitchen floor in all of Southern Cali!! haha

    So things are looking really good in the tent with the exception of my blue dream being a pain in the buttox... she has wanted to keep curling her leaves whether I lower the nutrient feedings, the water ratio of feedings, and even flooding the soil with regular water to flush it she still wants to curl leaves and now the older upper leaves are turning yellow....not too sure what is wrong... i know its not overwatering as i check the soil a few times a week and I keep it on the moist/dry side, giving them only 2 cups of water per day and the occasional earth juice drench with a few days of no water following. All the other plants for the most part look good so I have not a clue why my blue dream is being bad...I even thought it was a nitrogen issue so I slightly upped the N in the last few feedings and still didn't correct it...not sure....I flooded the soil again tonight with just plain r/o water so hopefully the soil will slowly get back into sync.

    Other than that, the other plants are looking great, but also some are showing some yellowing of the older leaves, which I know is somewhat normal for later flowering, but I think its still too early for that. I will just have to be gentle and help get the soil back in order by doing a nice worm/compost tea for the next feedings....

    Well here are the photos for today...
     
    IMG_20150325_222949.jpg IMG_20150325_222958.jpg IMG_20150325_223026.jpg IMG_20150325_223045.jpg IMG_20150325_223106.jpg IMG_20150325_223122.jpg IMG_20150325_223138.jpg IMG_20150325_223157.jpg IMG_20150325_223208.jpg IMG_20150325_223214.jpg IMG_20150325_223219.jpg
     
  10. Here is a quick update video
     
    http://youtu.be/f28xGtx33xc
     
  11. #111 Grow2dab., Mar 26, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 26, 2015
     
    I've used a cheap 250w for 4 grows now and it's still doing well, I think you are spot on though about coverage being the main factor people aren't happy with their LED's. With mine it appears only the colas in the few sweet spots are the biggest where as on the HPS side they are all pretty average. Maybe the lights are too close, I don't know.
     
    Here's what i'm thinking atm. HPS has always smashed the LED's but now I know that was mostly due to my mistakes, as you say LED has more of a learning curve where as HPS pretty much forgives all but heat. HPS really is allot more of a pain in the arse though in a small space with a lot of shit going on. I suppose the only concern with LEDs atm is international returns if something does happen. Being weeks with out your best light at the end of flower would suck. Unless I can source something local.
     
    Totally agree too, more units covers more area then one big unit from what I've seen, maybe two would be better? 2 and a half feet square.
     
  12. #112 Peflora, Mar 26, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 26, 2015
    Hey Ice, if I may chime in on what separates good led panels from most...
     
    BASICALLY, what we want to know is how intense the light is within one cubic meter. This is known as umoles/m^/sec
     
    The readings at the outside 6" of that reading tells you whether the panel is going to be good or not
     
    Only a few manufacturers are willing to post such important data
     
    Hi-Intensity leds (like you and I have) are capable of penetrating deep into the canopy. Instead of pop corn, my 2 smallest branches ~ 40" below the panel look more like golf balls (wet weight was > 6gms). So imagine how much more bud weight is above that.
     
    So, the difference between spending say $200 for a cheap panel v $300 for a quality panel will likely come back to you in the very first grow, and keep rewarding for years to come
     
    Another important feature is PAR, which BASICALLY is the useable spectrums that cannabis needs to be healthy (you can't tell a book by its' cover) and produce quality meds.
     
    This is a more common graph BUT most are not aware of the importance of the ~ 500-600 spectrums (which hps has in spades), which act as catalysts to the blues and reds
     
    There's a lot more to choosing a quality panel than these, but...
     
    1. Know your plant genetics.
    2. Especially with leds, opening the plant up (LST/bifurcation) will help considerably to get fatter buds
     
    hth
     
  13. Advance post theres heres the one for the xml 350w
     

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  14. #115 Icemud, Mar 27, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 27, 2015
    I 100% agree with ya Petflora! Its a damn shame that LED companies don't post the data we as growers need to make smart decisions on lighting... Its pretty rare to find companies that do. Usually they show off their Center PAR readings like its golden, but fail to show that only 1' out from the panel those numbers usually are about 1/5 of the PAR at the same height...
     
    I agree, the results of a good panel far will pay for themselves [​IMG]
     
    Here is some of my data comparing my grows with different lights... (now I do want to point out that not every grow was the same strains, but each grow featured 6 different strains, many of them run in multple grows..so with the randomness of strains, I think the numbers still reflect the trend of better lights and intensity, more yield....
     
    Grow 1: 1000w HID (400w CMH + 600w HPS) Total yield 574g or .57 grams/watt

    Grow 6: 540w LED (3x Mars II 400/180w models) Total yield 308g or .57 grams/watt

    Grow 9: 494W LED (2x Advanced LED XTE300, 247w draw each), Total yield 391.4g or .79grams/watt
     
    As you can see the Mars II gave me just about the same gram/watt as 1000w HID, with 54% wattage actually got about 53%% of the HID yield...Meaning that the Mars II efficiency is roughly the same as HID..
     
    With the better chips in the advanced panels, I actually got much higher of a gram/watt as well as with 50% wattage actually got about 68% of the HID yield... more efficient that HID lighting... showing that better chips provide more light which equals more yield for same energy usage or less.
     
    I am hoping that now with 750w of XTE panels that I may either top my HID yield numbers or come very close... At the ratio above if all is similar, with the added 250w of LED, I should expect somewhere in the ballpark of 592g this grow.... at the same gram/watt as my previous advanced grow.. lets see if I can actually raise that number up and beat that HID yield with 75% wattage... I think its going to be very close :)
     
    Just a little data to support what we are saying [​IMG]
     
     
    Advanced LED I have to give credit to for posting all of their lights data..
    http://advancedledlights.com/datasheets/
     
  15. Hmm this is odd cause if you go gpw from hid ive had 1.2gpw mars led 1.34gpw
    And thats all useable smokeable bud not any popcorn or trim
     
  16. #117 Grow2dab., Mar 27, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 27, 2015
    Seen LED's grow huge colas AND lots of popcorn bud, so totally agree penetration and light spread are two huge hurdles for LED's.
     
    For me there is so much to choose from now, stuff basically needs to stand out to be considered.
     
     
    GPW is obviously important but don't forget it's not the number one factor for allot of us. I can afford to sacrifice weight for quality nugs, that's why i'm leaning towards LED.
     
  17. Nugs are quality my mazar was amazing you can see the nugs loot good even at the bottom this was one of 3 under my mars2 400 :)
     

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  18. Yea I only use GPW for a data piece to compare my grows to each other... I too am about quality which is why I use mostly organic nutrients geared towards growing high brix plants. Definitely cuts my yields quite a bit where if I was using strictly salt fertz or hydro I defintiely would see a huge increase in yeild, but in my personal opinion I prefer finely grown organic high brix buds :)
     
    LED's are amazing if used correctly, I'm definitely a ex HID guy and prefer my LED's now too, but yea there still are some things that LED companies need to address...Like spreading out the light more evenly and less hotspots, and possibly a way to extract heat like HID does
     
  19. Thats good to know that you got an increase :) I did like the Mars for what they were....they were affordable for my 1st LED's and I definitely was happy with them, then I got the Igros and they did even better than the mars did as far as quality and yeild, (I just don't recommend them or support them anymore because I have seen too many issues and growers having them go out) and then I moved on to the advanced LED panels.
     
    each step up the chain got me better results.... now I am wondering if there is anything that would do better than the XTE's.. :) I haven't seen too many I think would give them a run for their money...maybe some budmasters? other than that not too many panels use cree and osram chips..
     
    I love LED's though.. man do they really pack on the trichomes :) and flavor :)
     

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