Schrodingers Cat

Discussion in 'Science and Nature' started by The Highest, Nov 11, 2014.

  1. #1 The Highest, Nov 11, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 11, 2014
    So I was thinking, and started to wonder do the mechanics in the Schrodinger's Cat Paradox's theory apply to infinite possibilities and if so how do all infinite possibilities happen at the same time?

     
  2. #2 Yana Usdi, Nov 11, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 11, 2014
    Ok, big subject and couldn't possibly cover any of it in detail without writing a book so I'll try to hit some high points you can use to get more info. It's actually multiple related subjects rather than one.
     
    First there's a huge difference between quantum mechanics and what's known as the interpretations of quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics is solid, tested, reliable. The interpretations of quantum mechanics are speculative and may be, if the world works a given way and given assumptions turn out to be true. There are several interpretations, some more popular than others, but none proved or to my knowledge even able to be tested at this point. They are just our best ideas on the subject until we can test them. They conflict with each other in serious ways so some have to be wrong, and in the end they all could be, the truth might be something we've yet to work out, but some do look a lot more likely than others.
     
    Schrodinger's Cat isn't a theory, it was more a thought experiment intended to show an aspect of what's called the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. So the best answer I can really offer you is probably this. Maybe, and we haven't been able to test it yet. I would think the same mechanics would apply to both if they apply to either but we're not sure they apply to either yet.
     
  3. I do not believe in the ides that both states exist until observed

    Its not only counter intuitive but untestable

    -yuri
     
  4. That didn't answer my question, but thinks for the insight. It's appreciated
     
  5. If you believe in an infinite universe, then you could say that infinite possibilities exist and they have existed for an infinite amount of time and will continue to exist for an infinite time. Meaning that this very moment has is happening an infinite amount of times at this very moment, has been happening for an infinite amount of time into the past, and will happen an infinite amount of times into the future..

    That's if you believe that all possibilities are true.. and there is absolutely no reason to believe that. Just because something is possible doesn't mean it is. Like with the cat in the box, its possible that it is alive, its possible that it is dead.. but it is one or the other. Unless you want to take this philosophy, but that cat is existing in whatever state it is in with or without observation. Thing is, you can't claim to know for sure until you observe it. Just like you can't be sure that all possibilities exist.

    My main issue with believing that all possibilities are true, is people tend to only focus on happy possibilities. Right now there is another version of me who is rich and famous. Another version of me that cured world hunger on their planet.. any positive thing you can think of. That would also mean all the negatives exist too. Like right now I'm murdering a bus load of children.. or getting sexually violated by a bear. A version of me where I'm missing a body part.. and all those moments, good and bad, are going on out there infinitely. No reason to believe it to be the truth until I can open the proverbial box.
     
  6. I would inject Everett's "Many Worlds" interpretation into the discussion but it would be cruel and unusual punishment. :laughing: 
     
    Besides,like Yana Usdi said, there's a big difference between QM physics and QM interpretations.  
     
  7. #7 yurigadaisukida, Nov 11, 2014
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    I did answer actually. Let me be more clear

    They don't

    -yuri
     
  8. #8 Yana Usdi, Nov 12, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 12, 2014
    Quote seems to be broken...
    Sorry about that, if I knew how to offer a more complete answer I would, but as you can see by the other comments there's considerable difference of opinion on the issue and in the end that's what it comes down to for some aspects, opinion.
     
    When we're watching Brian Greene or others on TV we're at the mercy of the program editors. If you pay attention he'll say something like "if our understanding of the Copenhagen interpretation is correct" which takes about a second or two to say, then is followed by 15 minutes showing what it would imply. It's really, really easy to miss that "if" but it's a damned important "if".
     
    I don't have advertisers to support so I'm just not interested in the hype. I'd rather leave that if clear and let people explore the ifs at their leisure rather than confuse them with more pseudo facts. Too much of that out there already.
     
  9. #9 Modality, Nov 12, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 12, 2014
     
     
    It's your choice if you don't want to believe it, but it is factually wrong to say that it is untestable. The fact that, for a given observable of a quantum system, all quantum states corresponding to all possible values of a given observable do exist until a measurement 'collapses' the wave function into a particular state, is not only is not only an experimentally demonstrable fact, but is also a fundamental component of upcoming groundbreaking technologies (spintronics, quantum computing, etc).
     
  10. let.me rephrase

    The cat in the box metaphor is wrong.

    Quantum states being in every state at once until affected, is different than a cat being both alive and deaf

    -yuri
     
  11. It's actually incredibly testable and verifiable. It was originally a simple thought experiment but quantum mechanics have ironed out a way to see that this thought experiment is actually very real. It's called the double-slit experiment.
     
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc
     
    tl;dr - Both states exist simultaneously until observed.
     
  12. It's been tested at the particle level, not the cat level. When we leave the quantum world and start to apply it to larger objects, other universes or other things of the sort there we get into the interpretations. I'm pretty sure he's just doubting that it's proved with large objects, such as cats, or the interpretations which suggest every choice you ever could have made you did so there's an infinite number of you out there doing an infinite number of things, and so on.
     
    Particles, yes. The rest, we'll see.
     
  13. the double slit experiment did no prove what you claim it proved

    All it proved is that light moves like water, which we already kinda knew

    -yuri
     
  14. #14 Tokesmith, Nov 12, 2014
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    The cat is the victim in the thought experiment; it's the electron that's being tested. If it takes one electron to either release the poison or not release the poison; since an electron can simultaneously be in 2 places (wave function), then the cat is both dead and alive. But once the measurement is made the wave function collapses and their is only one outcome for the cat.
     
  15. #15 Yana Usdi, Nov 12, 2014
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    I understand the principle, what I haven't seen is the proof that it's true, What is tested solid and known involves just particles, not a mix of particles and larger objects. That's where we differ I think. And yes, I'm aware that some serious scientists believe it to be true, and that others doubt it. I've seen convincing arguments from both sides and evidence that both sides say supports their claims. Not proves, but supports. What I haven't seen is serious claims by those scientists that they have actual proof rather than reasons to believe.
     
    One thing that characterizes the rest of quantum mechanics is that in spite of being weird as hell it's about as reliable as any field of science gets.We don't understand it all but there's solid consensus on the aspects that are proved and repeatable. I see debate about cats and other aspects of the interpretations, not consensus.
     
  16. there is no proof of this.

    Particle wave duality does not imply this at all

    If you did the double slit experiment with water molecules you'd get the same exact result

    Because water, like electrons, is a group of particles that when together, moves in waves

    -yuri
     
  17. I think you are asking a paradoxical question. All possibilities dont happen, if they 'happen' they are not possibilities they are reality. The difference between nothing and something is differentiation (imagine a black dot on an equally black piece of paper, there is no differentiation, nothing), likewise I would think if all possibilities exist simultaneously, the net differentiation would be zero (since there would be an exact opposite of every possibility). It may help to view it as a wave. [​IMG]

    And keep in mind not all possibilities are equally probable. So infinite possibilities simultaneously is the same as no possibilities. I hope this makes sense, this is my understanding.
     
  18. This is different from a group of particles. In the thought experiment it is a single particle that transforms into a wave (no particles left). Until the measurement is made the particle can be anywhere the wave function is (all possibilities).
     
  19. #19 Tokesmith, Nov 12, 2014
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    Give them time. Quantum mechanics is a hard subject. Eventually they'll have an experiment that'll prove either one side or the other.
     
  20. How can they universe even exist under the principle qm affects all possibilities?
     

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