Finding our own meaning in life is delusional

Discussion in 'Science and Nature' started by MattMVS7, Nov 11, 2014.

  1. #1 MattMVS7, Nov 11, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 12, 2014
    <div>If materialism, naturalism, and scientism are true, then you would be delusional to find meaning in your life (as stated by materialism, naturalism, and scientism which state that life is just a bunch of meaningless atoms and particles).  There are things in science that do have objective meaning. For example, the fact that the Earth revolves around the sun is a scientific fact and you would, therefore, be delusional to think otherwise. Same thing with creating our own meanings in life since life really has no meaning in terms of science.  You would, therefore, be delusional in finding your own personal meanings in life since life has no meaning.  If you are going to say something here such as that this is a logical fallacy I am presenting here, then what I would have to say in return is that your own personal viewpoints in that people would not be delusional in creating their own meanings in life, this would also be a logical fallacy since finding your own personal meanings in life when life has no meaning is a contradiction.  I don't even care if it's in our evolutionary design to find meaning in life in order to survive and benefit our survival.  You would still be delusional in finding your own meanings in life anyway.
     
    Now you might also be thinking that, since it is in our evolutionary design to find meaning in life in order to survive and benefit our survival, that to even perceive this as delusional would contradict our evolutionary design and would be a delusional viewpoint in of itself in terms of evolution as a result.  But this would be false because the only way for it to contradict our evolutionary design is if we were to tell ourselves the message that "We are not designed by evolution to find meaning in our lives."  That would be the only message that would contradict our evolutionary design.  Telling ourselves that "We are delusional in finding meaning in our lives" does not contradict our evolutionary design.
     
    To say that something IS when, in reality, it is not, would be delusional regardless of what you think otherwise.  So any personal meanings you create in life are your brain's way of telling you that these meanings ARE.  Even if you tell yourself something such as that these meanings you create are not objective (definite) meanings, the fact is, for you to view these personal meanings as true for yourself and for your personal life is your mind's way of telling you that these meanings are definite meanings which would be false since they are not.  It would be saying that since even you as a person are a bunch of meaningless atoms and particles, that any personal meanings you create hold true for you which would be false because you would be saying that you and this life both have meaning while at the same time they both don't have meaning which is contradictory.
     
    So for you to believe that any personal meaning you create in life holds true for you and holds true for your own personal life would be no different than saying that "I know that it's a scientific fact that the Earth revolves around the sun.  But I don't have to believe that it holds true for me as a person nor that it holds true for me in my own personal life and that I can create any personal meaning I want and instead believe that meaning holds true for me and holds true for my own personal life.  I can believe anything I want such as that the Earth is flat and is the center of the universe and that words don't have to mean what they mean or that scientific facts have to be what they are.  I can say that the color blue is actually the color black, that hot is cold, etc. and this will hold true for me and my own personal life while in actual reality itself it doesn't hold true at all.  And even if these personal meanings don't hold true at all for me and in my own personal life, I can still have them anyway in my life and live by them anyway."
     
    So as you can see here, this would be nonsense since it is a scientific fact that life has no meaning and that we are also a bunch of meaningless atoms and particles.  This is no different than the mindset of a religious person who has a delusional belief in a God and the supernatural.  Therefore, it's not just religious people and delusional people who are the only ones delusional.  Even atheists, highly intelligent people, and scientists themselves can be delusional here.  Sure, you can still live by those personal meanings you have created in life despite knowing that they are not true since this universe does not tell us how we should think, but it would all still be nonsense anyway.  I don't even care about the fact that if we didn't have any created personal meanings in life, that we would all be dead since we would all just be sitting there and not finding any reason to get up and eat, socialize, or do any other activities.  We would all still be living nonsensical and delusional lives anyway for being human and living our personal lives and making the best of this life regardless of the fact that this is in our evolutionary design to do so and that this is how evolution designed us.  It's only if this life had an objective meaning through there being a God and an afterlife of eternal joy would we find reason to live our lives and find that meaning in our lives.
     
    Now if you are going to ask something such as that "To be is not to be? To be is not the way to be?" what I would have to say to that would be that there is no "way" in the first place since even that quoted word is a personal meaning.  Also, to say that concepts such as value, worth, and beauty do exist in this universe, but are not things that are scientific and can't be defined by science and, therefore, you are free to live by them and not view them as being delusional since they are separate from this universe and are not a part of this meaningless universe and can't be defined by this meaningless universe, this would be false. These concepts are created by the meaningless atoms and particles in our brains that come up with these concepts in the first place (so these might be measurable concepts in the future through advanced neurological technology that can measure the amount of value, worth, and beauty in this person's mind by measuring the amount of activity of those atoms and particles that have created these concepts in this person's mind). Therefore, these concepts ARE the functioning of those atoms and particles that have created them in our brains and are, therefore, meaningless as well and to view them as being true for yourself and true for your personal life would be delusional nonsense.
     
    How we come to the conclusion (the scientific fact) that this universe is meaningless is through scientific evidence.  Therefore, you might be thinking that since there is also scientific evidence for created personal meanings being accomplished as something meaningful in life, in helping ourselves and others, doing great things in life, keeping us alive, etc. that this would somehow mean that these created meanings are not delusional nonsense.  But this would be false.  This entire universe and everything in it is all meaningless and the meaningless of all these things is what defines even our own personal created meanings in life.  The scientific fact of this universe being meaningless tells us that our created meanings are false just like how the scientific fact of the Earth revolving around the sun tells us that we would be false to have created personal meanings that say things such as that the Earth is the center of the universe and that the sun revolves around the Earth instead.
     
    If you are going to say something such as that "Of course it doesn't. You might as well say that Newton's law of gravitation explains why I don't like garlic."  
     
    What I would have to say to that would be that other scientific properties besides gravity does explain why we come up with personal meanings.  Since it is just the functioning of the atoms and particles in our brains that create meaning, then it is the scientific properties that define these atoms and particles in our brains and how they function which is what explains why we come up with meanings and why we perceive things the way we do (such as why we like something or don't like it or any other created meaning for that matter).  It would be the wiring of our brains and other scientific properties that explain how and why we have personal meanings in life.
     
    Now if you are going to ask me something such as for me to define "meaning," what I would have to say to that would be that there is no meaning. It is just a bunch of atoms and particles and that is it. But this would only hold true for things besides scientific facts such as the Earth revolving around the sun and also the scientific fact that this life has no meaning.
     
    Finally, even Stephen Hawking himself has stated that philosophy is dead and that science is all there is.  The viewpoints that others have regarding that you can find your own personal meanings in life and that this would not be delusional, these are philosophical viewpoints which would actually be "dead" (false).

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  2. You sir are arrogant and wrong. Perhaps its you who is delusional.

    The "meaning" to life is what you want it to be. Each persons meaning is different.

    How is that delusional?

    Its only delusional if "meaning" is.objective, which it is not

    -yuri
     
  3. Now you might also be thinking that, since it is in our evolutionary design to find meaning in life in order to survive and benefit our survival, that to even perceive this as delusional would contradict our evolutionary design and would be a delusional viewpoint in of itself in terms of evolution as a result.  But this would be false because the only way for it to contradict our evolutionary design is if we were to tell ourselves the message that "We are not designed by evolution to find meaning in our lives."  That would be the only message that would contradict our evolutionary design.  Telling ourselves that "We are delusional in finding meaning in our lives" does not contradict our evolutionary design.
     
    Finally, even Stephen Hawking himself has stated that philosophy is dead and that science is all there is.  The viewpoints that others have regarding that you can find your own personal meanings in life and that this would not be delusional, these are philosophical viewpoints which would actually be "dead" (false):
     
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/google/8520033/Stephen-Hawking-tells-Google-philosophy-is-dead.html
     
  4. #4 Yana Usdi, Nov 11, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 11, 2014
    On edit that's more direct than I need to be. I'll try again. yurigadaisukida already covered meaning of life as well as it needs to be, matter of opinion. And pointing to Hawking like that isn't how science works. What he expressed was an opinion, everyone is entitled to one including you. When he shows results in science those are accepted not because of who he is but because he can show he's right at least in the math since his angle is more theoretical rather than experimental.
     
    Use of it in the way you're trying to use it is simple appeal to authority, trying to give opinion the weight of fact simply for who it is. Not saying I agree with him or not, but the argument itself isn't convincing for me.
     
  5. It's pretty obvious OP has a very weak grasp of what Scientism actually is.  

    lol 'Evolutionary design'.  OP's a fundie.
     
  6. That was my guess too which is why I had to rewrite my post, but sometimes going after them feels too much like kicking a puppy. The aggressive ones piss me off but a lot of them have simply been lied to and think we're really following some "high priests of science" rather than performing experiments and observations to see who's right and how things really work.
     
  7. #7 MattMVS7, Nov 11, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 11, 2014
    To say that something IS when, in reality, it is not, would be delusional regardless of what you think otherwise.  So any personal meanings you create in life are your brain's way of telling you that these meanings ARE.  Even if you tell yourself something such as that these meanings you create are not objective (definite) meanings, the fact is, for you to view these personal meanings as true for yourself and for your personal life is your mind's way of telling you that these meanings are definite meanings which would be false since they are not.  It would be saying that since even you as a person are a bunch of meaningless atoms and particles, that any personal meanings you create hold true for you which would be false because you would be saying that you and this life both have meaning while at the same time they both don't have meaning which is contradictory.
     
    Now if you are going to ask me something such as for me to define "meaning," what I would have to say to that would be that there is no meaning. It is just a bunch of atoms and particles and that is it. But this would only hold true for things besides scientific facts such as the Earth revolving around the sun and also the scientific fact that this life has no meaning.
     
  8. Scientism.. lol
     
  9. I agree somewhat with your title, but not the ideas you use to back it up. You should firstly contemplate what exactly "meaning" really is. Meaning is a human concept. What meaning exists without our making it up?
     
  10.  
    Now if you are going to ask me something such as for me to define "meaning," what I would have to say to that would be that there is no meaning. It is just a bunch of atoms and particles and that is it. But this would only hold true for things besides scientific facts such as the Earth revolving around the sun and also the scientific fact that this life has no meaning.
     
  11. Travel through life. Help others if you can. If the idea of living in Paradise is abhorrent to you then, welcome the second death (the death of your soul / spirit) and stop complaining. Life, in my opinion, is a dress rehearsal for the afterlife. If you wish to join the goats on Judgment Day...so be it.
     
  12. Delusion is believeing that subscribing to the herd mentality and foregoing introspection and self-development will make one stonger.
     
    By virtue of attempting to invalidate philosophy through self-expression and rational thought one validates philosophy.
     
  13. All we can do is speculate and create our own meaning.

    and that's better than having meaning handed down to you with no choice in the matter.
     
  14. #14 MattMVS7, Nov 12, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 12, 2014
    So for you to believe that any personal meaning you create in life holds true for you and holds true for your own personal life would be no different than saying that "I know that it's a scientific fact that the Earth revolves around the sun.  But I don't have to believe that it holds true for me as a person nor that it holds true for me in my own personal life and that I can create any personal meaning I want and instead believe that meaning holds true for me and holds true for my own personal life.  I can believe anything I want such as that the Earth is flat and is the center of the universe and that words don't have to mean what they mean or that scientific facts have to be what they are.  I can say that the color blue is actually the color black, that hot is cold, etc. and this will hold true for me and my own personal life while in actual reality itself it doesn't hold true at all.  And even if these personal meanings don't hold true at all for me and in my own personal life, I can still have them anyway in my life and live by them anyway."
     
    So as you can see here, this would be nonsense since it is a scientific fact that life has no meaning and that we are also a bunch of meaningless atoms and particles.  This is no different than the mindset of a religious person who has a delusional belief in a God and the supernatural.  Therefore, it's not just religious people and delusional people who are the only ones delusional.  Even atheists, highly intelligent people, and scientists themselves can be delusional here.  Sure, you can still live by those personal meanings you have created in life despite knowing that they are not true since this universe does not tell us how we should think, but it would all still be nonsense anyway.  I don't even care about the fact that if we didn't have any created personal meanings in life, that we would all be dead since we would all just be sitting there and not finding any reason to get up and eat, socialize, or do any other activities.  We would all still be living nonsensical and delusional lives anyway for being human and living our personal lives and making the best of this life regardless of the fact that this is in our evolutionary design to do so and that this is how evolution designed us.  It's only if this life had an objective meaning through there being a God and an afterlife of eternal joy would we find reason to live our lives and find that meaning in our lives.
     
    Now if you are going to ask something such as that "To be is not to be? To be is not the way to be?" what I would have to say to that would be that there is no "way" in the first place since even that quoted word is a personal meaning.  Also, to say that concepts such as value, worth, and beauty do exist in this universe, but are not things that are scientific and can't be defined by science and, therefore, you are free to live by them and not view them as being delusional since they are separate from this universe and are not a part of this meaningless universe and can't be defined by this meaningless universe, this would be false. These concepts are created by the meaningless atoms and particles in our brains that come up with these concepts in the first place (so these might be measurable concepts in the future through advanced neurological technology that can measure the amount of value, worth, and beauty in this person's mind by measuring the amount of activity of those atoms and particles that have created these concepts in this person's mind). Therefore, these concepts ARE the functioning of those atoms and particles that have created them in our brains and are, therefore, meaningless as well and to view them as being true for yourself and true for your personal life would be delusional nonsense.
     
    How we come to the conclusion (the scientific fact) that this universe is meaningless is through scientific evidence.  Therefore, you might be thinking that since there is also scientific evidence for created personal meanings being accomplished as something meaningful in life, in helping ourselves and others, doing great things in life, keeping us alive, etc. that this would somehow mean that these created meanings are not delusional nonsense.  But this would be false.  This entire universe and everything in it is all meaningless and the meaningless of all these things is what defines even our own personal created meanings in life.  The scientific fact of this universe being meaningless tells us that our created meanings are false just like how the scientific fact of the Earth revolving around the sun tells us that we would be false to have created personal meanings that say things such as that the Earth is the center of the universe and that the sun revolves around the Earth instead.
     
  15. "Scientism" reminded me of that Nacho Libre scene,"I don't believe in God; I believe in science." Lol
     
  16. I am completely fine with my delusions as they are not negative. I learn from them and keep on going in life.
     
  17. Where you claim that science says life is just meaningless particles is where you failed and also where I stopped reading because it's clear you want your conclusions to be true
     
  18. Op is is a genius. I am an asshole.
     
     
    asshole.png
     
  19. Nothing is meaningless or has meaning and yet it does, since meaning is a human construct and not something that can be obectively measured. Since it's an abstract concept it exists solely in our minds, therefore it is what you want it to be.
     
  20.  
    Very eloquently put. I like it.  :smoke:
     

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