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Does High CBD Strains for Use in Pediatric Seizures Need Decarb to be Effective?

Discussion in 'Medical Marijuana Usage and Applications' started by PsychedelicSam, Sep 27, 2014.

  1. What a wonderful read. Awesome work you're doing, Sam. The CBD hybrids in my garden are only in the low percentages (<10%) but working with that broader spectrum of cannabinoids is really exciting. I look forward to reading more about what you're up to.

     
  2.  
    Thank you, dekabos. I appreciate that and hope I can continue the work but it can be slow going as life has a tendency to get in the way of the most noble of plans. As I gain the knowledge I'll be sure to share it here.
     
    The cannabinoids and other terpenes in all their forms have a lot of beneficial properties and plays a large role in molding and influencing the overall effects of THC just as cannabidiol does. Those as much as anything gives a particular strain its unique signature. While the trend right now is CBD, I believe that those other compounds can have even larger benefits. Just having the knowledge that CBGA is responsible for the ratio of the other non-THC cannabinoids has the ability to be a game changer if it can be understood. 
     
    Before I started this effort with the high CBD oil for the pediatric benefits I really didn't have a full understanding of how a high CBD cannabis product would work. I'm an old stoner and have been for nearly 50 years so it's difficult to visualize what good it would do if you couldn't feel it. I have always associated some kind of head or heavy couchlock effect with knowing that it was working. And like most of us homegrown "experts", I had never really tried it. 
     
    This experience of not knowing in real terms yet trying to give knowledgeable advice just from 3rd hand sources was frustrating and humbling. I just hate not knowing what I'm talking about and try to avoid it but sometimes due to the seriousness of the occasion, I'll drag out what I do know and try to fit it into scenario. It often (knock on wood) works out even though I may not know the reason why it works the way it did. 
     
    Because I hate it so much, that not knowing thingy, I started my own high CBD project using an ounce of Harlequin to make a Green Dragon tincture, decarbed, to see just what it was all about. I have experienced quite a unique effect that every MMJ user should know about concerning psychoactivity and pain relief from a stoner's perspective. I have allowed others to try it with exactly the same results so I know it's not just me.
     
    I haven't gotten a chance to put all my thoughts into words but I'll get that done and post it here in a few days. 
     
    Thanks again for the kind words.  :) 
     
  3. The beauty of Elixinol is extraction is done via super critical CO2 so we are getting a full spectrum of phytonutrients out of industrial hemp grown in Europe (so technically I think this product is legal in Australia).  It is expensive though at around US$35/ml/day (A$50/ml/day).  
     
    Medicinal hemp is illegal in Australia at the moment though there are suppliers here putting product into the marketplace mostly for epilepsy and cancer sufferers, using both high CBD and strains carrying moderate amounts of THC and CBD.  'Trials' are being established in some States but really this is just stalling as there are already plenty of trials now being run in the legal States of your motherland.
     
    I would definately like to trial a THCA/CBDA tincture in the mix and especially as a rescue remedy as there is plenty of anecdotal evidence around to suggest these cannabinoids have an added role there. I am currently waiting for one to arrive from a supplier who the authorities appear to be 'turning a blind eye to'. Will let you know how we go.
     
    For those parents who are reluctant to 'go hard' at paediatric seizures with THCA tinctures/oils, I would suggest going hard with CBD first and then introduce tinctures with THCA/CBDA.  The CBD is completely safe (no chance of a high) and is a tried and tested cannabinoid for varying degrees of control.  As you know though, you can't afford to dilly dally around with seizure control though as the longer your kids are on the AEDs, the more damage you do to their prognosis of possibly being near 'normal'.  And of course seizures where breathing is affected are to be respected as potentially critically dangerous.  Thats why formulating effective cannabinoid rescue remedies are so important because you can easily increase you daily AED dosages chasing the more resilient breakthrough seizure bouts, and it is generally with benzodiazepines like clobazam and worst case midazalam.
     
  4.  
    It's great that you've entered the discussion, santalum, providing us with some real life experience about this. No matter how hard I try, there is just no way that I can even get close to understanding how it all works. I believe having a dialogue like this in an easily accessed spot is important for those of us with no clues to better comprehend the factors at play. It also will give those searching for answers some first hand experience and maybe some hope.
     
    Since you seem to be in the "loop", have you heard of any research with linalool and it's antispasmotic properties? It's a terpene found in some strains of cannabis and other plants and is one of the compounds I'm trying to retain with the natural decarb project but it is available as a standalone essestial oil, as is other common terpenes, which could then be used to potentiate the effects of the cannabis treatment. 
     
    There is just so much to discover in this very important field. I'm afraid that due to environmental disregard our future generations are going to be at ever greater risk of these types of hazards happening to them and theirs. Maybe with the cannabis research we can someday find a key to treat or eliminate such suffering. I'm all for it.  :) 
     
  5. #25 dekabos, Jan 18, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 18, 2015
    One of the strains I grew last year (the only non-CBD hybrid of the bunch, funny enough) has a decent linalool presence in its terpene profile. Haven't been able to afford testing, so I'm taking Mandala at their word and I don't know how potent any particular terpene or cannabinoid is aside from going by taste and feel. It's difficult to put into words, but it does have some really unique effects in the high and a very distinct flavor. 
     
    Landraces are the keys to finding unique cannabinoid and terpene profiles, IMO. I've heard some talk of African landraces having a particular strength of THCV, but that may prove baseless. It's certainly a wide variety out there, though. Some really interesting stuff to be found.
     
  6.  
    I've heard that about African landraces, too, and THCV has value. They believe that it decreases the appetite instead of increasing and can play a large role in weight loss as well as the other properties it has. Maybe that's why I don't get the munchies on Durban Poison. I am a big fan of landraces since that's all I smoked for 40 years and I still prefer them to modern stains. Unfortunately, many of the landraces, Sativas in particular, are absolutely useless for heavy pain relief other than to get you thinking of something else.
     
    Labs are really pricey which is why my project is going so slowly. They only give discounts if you get 20 at a time. Half the time the tests are so screwed up that they're useless because the labs don't have their act together but they're the only game in town. You have to have an HPLC rather than the standard gas chromography in order to get both the acids and cannabinoids. Some labs include the terpene profile with the cost of the test but others, like my local, want to charge as much again for that, but if you want the numbers you've got to do it. 
     
    It is very interesting though and well worth the effort just to know instead of speculate.  :) 
     
  7. I'm afraid when it comes to terpenes, my knowledge is very deficient.  I am not even sure what strain has been used to produce the THCA tincture I am currently trying to obtain.  I think it may be CBD Crews Critical Mass which is about 6% THC, 8% CBD when decarbed. If it was legal in this country I would be juicing for THCA needs in my little girl.
     
    I do know a little bit about extraction techniques because I work part time for a sandalwood company who have evaluated many extraction techniques to obtain oil from sandalwood seeds.  The important thing to realise is different solvents, temperatures, pressures all have differing abilities to pull spectrums of nutrients from the same feedstock.  You can't just assume that supercritical CO2 will give you the same nutrient spectrum as say ethanol.
     
     
    As a wheat farmer also, I can assure you that 'landraces' will all produce their own specific quality parameters in a given season and seasonal variances will also define the way in which a variety will 'express' itself, whether it is wheat or weed.  Disease, nutrition, weed management, weather extremes and management practises will all affect genotype expression.  There will be no two seasons the same and hence quality parameters are constantly moving.
     
  8.  
    My knowledge of those things are limited also but I'm trying to educate myself. My organic chemistry classes are too far distant to remember any details. I remember the Krebs cycle only because of a TV show from my childhood that had a character Maynard G. Krebs who was similar to Gilligan. That was way before your time but it caused at least one thing to stick in my head.
     
    We've had a number of cases of CO2 poisoning here in the states from poor extractions and of course petrochemicals are out of the question. Acetone can pull a different range of compounds in addition to the cannabinoids but still explosive. I stick to ethanol for everything. With it being polar it extracts the terpenes and cannabinoids and the other compounds can be controlled by the length of time it's allowed to extract. That allows you to get the goodies without excessive chlorophyll, waxes and oils. 
     
    I don't do a lot with cannabis oil too much, though. Normally I stop my reduction while still liquid and then transfer that to a small amount of coconut oil then finish evaporating the alcohol. That allows me to make a more bioavailable product that can be made as potent as RSO or even stronger if needed or weaker if desired. This seems to work better for me. 
     
    The biggest problem with the landrace cannabis strains, mainly tropical Sativas, is genetics which is why they seldom make a good medical strain without at least some hybridization. There are exceptions but generally I've found that to be that case. They do have some good medical benefits for a lot of digestive issues and ADD and such but aren't worth a darn for pain. Unfortunately I've never tried a landrace Indica unless Afgani or Nepalese black hash counts. 
     
    Even when you have something that has a wide range, you still have the various phenotypes that add to the already influential climate and soil factors. Fortunately some of those factors can be controlled by an indoor grow but outdoors can be a crapshoot.  :) 
     
  9. That is a bit of gold right there Sam
    'I don't do a lot with cannabis oil too much, though. Normally I stop my reduction while still liquid and then transfer that to a small amount of coconut oil then finish evaporating the alcohol. That allows me to make a more bioavailable product that can be made as potent as RSO or even stronger if needed or weaker if desired. This seems to work better for me. '
     
  10.  
    The concentrated cannabis oil, RSO, doesn't always get fully absorbed upon ingestion because of it's high density. Some will absorb but if it all doesn't then it's a waste and it's too expensive to waste. The coconut oil is highly bioavailable and easily metabolized by most although for some, lecithin might be needed it they have digestive issues. It can be used sublingually or ingested and it has lauric acid which plays a key role in passing the blood/brain barrier for more direct effects. It can easily be mixed with honey or butter for a child. 
     
    It does take a while to drive out the last of the alcohol just like it does in an RSO. Those videos are short but they're filmed over hours. It doesn't take as long, though, and it reduces the risk of burning off important lesser compounds. I normally extract from 3-4 ounces of bud at a time and make the ratio of cannabis bud to coconut at 1oz of concentrated coconut oil for every ounce of bud. That works out to the equivalent of 3.5g of RSO to each fluid ounce(30ml). That's just general math using the average yield of RSO per ounce of bud with is approximately 3.5 grams. I have gotten as little as 2g from old, old trim and as much as 3.9g from a batch of 5 oz of bud, but the generally accepted yield is 3.5. 
     
    I haven't found a saturation point yet for coconut oil (or alcohol) and I've tried. It won't smell like coconut oil when it's finished, instead smelling like pure cannabis oil with a little off the edge. And I can add just a few drops sublingually or in a drink or smoothie or use it a number of different ways than the pasty RSO. There's all kinds of possibilities. You can even make it stronger than 3.5g/oz if you want. I have squeezed 20g into 10ml of coconut oil. Believe me, that got me back on my feet after an auto accident in no time.  ;) 
     
  11. I'm late to this conversation, but I may have a more difinitive answer for y'all. The original question was "Do High-CBD strains need to be decarbed...?" The short answer is: Yes.
     
    I've been in contact with the Realm of Hope/Stanley Bros in Denver (they grow and sell Charlotte's Web). Their processing of their strain of hemp includes debarbing the plant material. I also heard from a couple of manufacturers who make "prescription-grade" CBD and they decarb as well. Most of the reputable CBD oils available on the Internet are also decarbed. Some of them may add THCV after processing, but then that is usually noted on the label.
     
    I have discovered a number of cases of fraud on the Internet, so buyer beware. Sootheen sells a product listed as 24% CBD, but their numbers don't compute. (200mg in 30ml) In other cases, suppliers are selling cooking oil that is made from hemp seeds as "CBD Oil". (If you are familiar with CBD extraction, you'll know that hemp seeds don't contain enough CBD in them to be worth the trouble.) If I'm preaching to the choir here, my apologies. I'm just concerned about people in restricted states/countries trying to treat their conditions with dubious products.
     
  12.  
    Thanks, cheycobb. It's an ongoing conversation so there is no "late". 
     
    It's really hard to find the detailed process for pediatric usage and I couldn't come up with anything so I did the only thing I knew to do and that was ask here. We didn't get much response so we basically went for a partial decarb to play it safe. After researching and working with Harlequin I concluded that the decarb was a good step. So thank you for verifying that for us. It's always better to know than to guess. 
     
    I'm aware of the scams and outright fraud. I have a friend who was scammed for a lot of money trying to get RSO for his cancer. A lot of real jerks preying on those desperate for help. It sucks. It's why I make my own of everything. 
     
    Thanks again for joining in.  :) 
     
  13. hi,
     
    I am out of my league here...don't know about de-carbing or anything about the amount of cbd and thc contents...
    but I have a story that may help but remember I don't know anything about nothing...!
     
    I have a dog that has seizures...I tried different variations of thc stuff...some worked and some didn't....then tried the cbd from the dispensary...and he didn't like it....then I cut it open just to give him the liquid out of the capsule and he seized...coincidence or not...?
     
    he liked the wax that was made and he liked the shake from 5 different medicinal plants...that and the wax was working...great...I can now relax
     
    ooops then I got some freeze burnt stuff and it sent him into a seizure...and I thought maybe he didn't get enough so gave him more...kaboom he seized again...4 times till I realized what I was doing to him
    so make that crappy stuff into wax and he hated it too...and seized...again on me...
    screw that crap
     
    so I went to a tobacco shop and they had cbd drops I told them I am so tired of $30 here and there...and I tried the liquid cbd...aint going there again...
    he convinced me this was different .....it has hemp in it and try it for half price...
    done
    gave him some in the parking lot and he relaxed right now....
     
    he has been off the phenobarbital and seizure free for almost 3 weeks now...had 1 but that was the wax I tried or the stress created...between 2 adults....
     
    so my vote was for the cbd and hemp combo...it works...like right now!
     
    sorry if I don't know all you people do...but I am just adding what I know....from trial and error....
     
  14. #34 dabs710, Jun 9, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 9, 2015
    Anyone here have success with THCA (THC Acid - non decar'd THC)? I hear it is pretty much relatively effective as the CBD itself.
     
  15.  
    They are very similar in their properties. A non-decarbed full spectrum is called inactive because the psychoactive properties of THC weren't triggered by the release of the carboxyl group caused by decarb. That's the main draw of the high CBD products-the lack of psychoactivity, especially for children.
     
    There is an advantage in using a high CBD product if the psychoactivity is a concern. An inactive full spectrum product will eventually activate as it ages and within a couple of months it could gain enough psychoactivity to cause some issues whereas a high CBD strain won't contain enough THC to make an appreciable difference even when it does naturally activate. I have test results from tincture samples that show a non-decarbed Green Dragon naturally activates about 35% within 60 days. With a high THC strain that could throw a kid for a loop.
     
    Thanks for joining the conversation. [​IMG] 
     
  16.  
    That is very interesting! So decarb'ed CBD is just more stable medicine.
     
    I find that really surprising it went 35% in 2 months. I wonder if the decay is the same rate for raw buds / oils?
     
  17.  
    Just the act of decarbing, both THC and CBD, stabilizes the compounds except for natural degradation over time. A decarbed high CBD will be more stable with low psychoactivity than an inactive high THCa strain because it has already been fully converted. The inactive THC strain will continue to convert and soon the psychoactivity will dominate. 
     
    The rate is quite different for raw buds. I just tested a sample of some bud that was originally sampled a year ago, after harvest. The bud was kept in a sealed, humidity controlled jar for one year and opened only a couple of times during that interval. After one year only 15% of the THC had decarbed. I haven't had a chance to test any oils yet but hope to soon and I imagine the natural activation is of those will fall somewhere between the raw bud and tincture times. [​IMG] 
     
  18. #39 dabs710, Jun 14, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 14, 2015
     
    I'm assuming this has to do with surface area and the cannabinoids being seperated into another medium. I would've guessed a solidly pressed hash or some stable shatter would last longer than buds, but maybe not. Thanks for the info!
     
  19.  
    Surface area would play a large part as far as density is concerned. Buds that have been broken down will naturally activate quicker than tight buds because of the larger surface area presented to the air. Tightly packed hash would take longer than the tight buds for the same reason but leaving it as kief or loose wouldn't take as long as the whole bud material because you've already removed much of the excess. A stable shatter has already been processed and decarbed otherwise it will continue to activate on a similar scale with RSO or other cannabis oils but I don't have enough experience with oils other than RSO to know if that is more than theoretical. More study needs to be done. [​IMG] 
     

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