then if thats how u feel then u are not free my friend. Free your mind. Sent from my ALCATEL ONE TOUCH Fierce using Grasscity Forum mobile app
It is impossible to prove or disprove free will. I believe in free will. Sent from my LG-E739 using Grasscity Forum mobile app
Freedom is not about perception. This debate is not about personal subjective feelings but actually the physical nature of our universe. If the world has some consistent laws and causation actually exists than I think it is hard to deny determinism. If we are merely a collection of atoms, electrons, neutrons, and a ton more sub particles and these atoms have a causative effect that is based on some kind of consistent physical laws then they are all merely just reacting as a result of the previous moment. And the reason for that previous moment is the moment before that going all the way back to the day you were born. A quick thought experiment that helps figure out which side of the debate your on is to think about an alternate universe. Let's say I want to recreate the exact moment in time in an alternate universe where I am deciding between two pieces of food. The question is if I perfectly recreated the conditions of the exact moment in time. By taking every single sub particle, maybe even ones we haven't discovered, and giving them the exact same position, orientation, velocity, temperature, and all other dimensions as the moment I am deciding. If I were able to do this perfectly and run the same test thousands of times would I find that I always chose the same piece of food or would I end up choosing one food a certain percent of the time and the other the rest of the time? The determinist would obviously answer that the same output would occur if all the same inputs were present so yes. They would say this because they believe that if all the conditions are the same then it should always lead to the same reaction because there is consistent causative laws. The person who believe in free will, however, would say that the person would choose both foods throughout the series of tests. They would say this because causative laws are not consistent and the same inputs can lead to a different output as a result of quantum indeterminacy. It's a very believable stance and has it's points but I find harder to accept than determinism. When we perform experiments in science, the results become more accurate and repeatable the more variables are removed. I think it would stand to logic that if this is the case, then if we were able to perfectly recreate the variables then the same reaction should occur, This is why one of the reasons why I believe in determinism. You don't control what kind of environment you're born into. The combination of interactions between the environment and your DNA results in you forming that personal identity and making all the decisions that you do in life. Think about it this way. We can't control our first moment, which then shapes the second moment, shaping the third moment, going on indefinitely till we die. So all of our actions, thoughts and everything else is merely the result of the previous moments going back to the first moment where we have absolutely no control. Of course if you don't accept the premise that recreating the same conditions will lead to the same outcome, then you won't accept this argument. However, I find this argument more convincing than any argument I've ever heard for free will. Lastly, I have one more critique of free will. Let's say I'm wrong and the thought experiment would result in me choosing both options and not just one. This means that there is a certain probability based on the interactions of the universe that I would commit either action. This would imply that our decisions are merely left up to chance. Some kind of quantum dice roll which is random and not based on any kind of consistent universal laws, remember I said assume I'm wrong. How are we really making a choice or a free decision if the decision is really based on just random interactions. How are humans able to control these seemingly random interactions and make a conscious free decision. Seems a little inconsistent to me, but maybe there's something I'm missing.
Well....I'll be that guy to say meditation lol Do we create, or facilitate a housing for complete emptiness thus creating or imposing natural law/highest order of determination when we meditate? To bring self knowingly, willingly, skillfully to a point where we attain a watching, observant state is innate in all beings, in my opinion. That's to say change is brought all around us, regardless of our input. Are you to try and change it? Or watch it go by? I really liked everything about what you said, yet the very beginning caught me when you said "freedom is not about perception". I see your logic, but it does not account for anything but the physical. You cannot recreate the same circumstances, the same people at the same place, at the same time, all with the same upbringing and experiences. You can't, it's not possible, it would have had to have happened once before thus influencing the next occurrence. This merely lives in hypothesis, the very happening happenstance you insist upon is incredibly insisted upon by your understanding of the life long lessons you have accumulated. It's like Pokémon on gameboy, only you can go back to your battles and tinker with them to your hearts desire. Ever thought about that girl maybe a little too much when you were younger? If you are to be released of every old clinging happenings thus able to fully embrace the moments potentialities, your options are near limitless (go try and fly). Where meditation comes in is facilitating a tiny seed.. at first, which, allows you to get a glimpse that there's something within you that doesn't recognize itself as identifying to your physical being (insert name here). So, I guess I'm trying to say we are free to look at any situation , at any point in time, in any way possible like a rolodex of options strictly in adherence to how we have, in the past, or want to, in the future influence and change the coming attractions life has before us. Are you to be a glum schmuck, who dgaf about this world? So, I kinda went my own way with this one lol..we live in duality, you cannot escape the physical side of things. However, there's something that does operate on a different level greatly influencing physical manifestations. I like how you make the correlation to the fact that, when we are born , we do not remember everything, it's out of one's ability. Though true, babies can be taught like robots at a very basic level. Eg. Spoon means open mouth. I really do feel we must completely learn our lessons so as to make way for a more in inviting, freeing, invigorating, full life. That all being said your stuck because of what you remember and chose to remember about it. In essence if you want to be a sheep and live a determined, passive life, you're more than capable. if you are to live a life completely free and open, you must be come to realize what your initial reaction to whatever event or feeling you had was for, find its purpose. What it was that you were missing then, but know now. You know. .I thought I was gunna write a short response but that's what came out...lol that's just how I see it at this point in time, it will probably change tho...and ye I smoked up a bit too
The naivety... ... well, seeing as you love science so much.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMNZQVyabiM