Organic. Deformed Leaves, Curling, Otherwise Healthy?

Discussion in 'Sick Plants and Problems' started by Dingus, Aug 8, 2014.

  1. Hi guys I've got a plant doing some strange stuff. I had another doing the same things but more intensely and so I already chopped it down. I cannot for the life of me figure out what the problem is.

    Symptom:

    Deformed leaves starting from in between the leaf veins. The leaves still almost fully expand but sometimes curl intensely. It seems to still be growing at the same speed as all the other plants. Since it's happening to two of my plants but not all of them I thought maybe bugs? Broadmites/cyclamen mites?

    Organic water only soil:

    Alaska Peat Moss, KIS Microbe Catalyst, Pumiceblend, Gaia Green Canadian Glacial Rock Dust, Cascade Minerals Basalt, Calphos Soft Rock Phosphate, Pacific Pearl Oyster Shell Powder, Organic Alfalfa Meal, Organic Fish Bone Meal, Organic Crustacean Meal, Acadian Kelp Meal, Ahimsa Organics Neem Cake, Organic Fish Meal, Organic Feather Meal, Organic Steamed Bone Meal, Natural Calcite, Ag Lime, Mycorrhiza*, and Benefical Microbes.

    +

    Mykos, (grokashi) bokashi bran top dress with neem cake & covered thickly with cocoa shell mulch.

    Also I've done a neem oil drench but I only mixed 1 gal of it for all seven of my 5gal plants.

    I've also done one grokashi tea.

    Lately I have been foliar spraying with neem oil and dr bronners

    The setup for these is a greenhouse with temps 54-84. On hot days I've seen it reach 100+ but it's rare.
    41%-94% RH (rain)

    The strain is cbd crew critical mass
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  2. Have you researched TMV?
     
  3. just outta pure ignorance, if your plant where to have TMV and you manage to bring it to maturity, is the plant consumable? Or would you become ill from ingesting and or smoking it?
     
  4. I wish I had a better answer for you, unfortunately I don't know a lot about it. I just seen in one of your photos it looked like the leaf was blistering. I am actually researching the topic as we speak.

    I would postpone smoking it until you know what is happening, and should it have TMV what could happen if ingested.
     
  5. #6 Dingus, Aug 8, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 8, 2014
    ive researched TMV a long time ago but wow it actually looks just like it. It doesn't mention anything about curling though, and this plant is less affected than a wonderkush I had which i cut. 
     
    I just googled it and found a dedicated thread on icmag https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=177527
     
    it says that fungus gnats can be a vector for the virus to spread! its good that ive been killing off my fungus gnat infestation and now is almost completely gone. Combination of spraying neem + bronners, neem cake, neem oil drench, mosquito dunks, pyrethrin spray.
     
    If it is TMV i should definitely cut this one down like immediately and clean everything.
     
    actually i should probably just cut it down and clean everything anyway, i really don't think its a nutrient problem, all the plants are in the same soil and only two showed symptoms. TMV or cucumber tomato virus or some other freaky shit. I feel like I should just not mess with it and just replace it? I had 6 wonder kush, #6 was affected, and the one cbd critcal mass this thread is for. :( i don't have a clone of it too... there goes my cbd plant
     
  6. I haven't smoked cigs in that spot but i suppose a year ago some people did a couple times. dammm.... In front of the GH theres some weeds that I keep pulling that have some strange discoloration and stuff too, which could possibly also be TMV? I had a PM scare earlier this season too because some buttercups popped up that had PM.
     
  7. I believe TMV is common in cigarettes. But I'm looking for confirmation. If that is the case, TMV is consumed by millions everyday, at which point... I would think it's different than no other carcinogen.
     
  8. Here is a much more throughout link on transmission and how to proceed.

    If it were me, it would depend on how invested in the grow I were. I dont think any harm will come, I would consider edibles for the infected plant over smoking, as it would be cooked.

    Nonetheless, how many plants go undetected every day. It is consumed and there is no CDC announcements that people are or have ingested the virus.

    I'm going to say you're straight. Finish it up, and then thoroughly clean everything top to bottom.
    http://ediblesanmarcos.wordpress.com/tobacco-mosaic-virus/
     
  9.   Not that I know shit but, I read the posted TMV article and I don't see any of the described symptoms in that plant vein discoloration, brown and dark green spots, etc. At best I might quarantine it but, most definitely not  pluck it. JMHO
     
  10. in the link I posted the first set of photos show symptoms almost identical to what I'm experiencing. I don't want it to infect my other plants. I doubt it would, seeing as they've been all next to eachother for so long now but still. Is it not best for me to just, not gamble with it?


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  11. #12 waktoo, Aug 8, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2014
    Just in case you haven't read this yet...

    http://forum.grasscity.com/sick-plants-problems/623147-tobacco-mosaic-virus-tmv-pics-info.html

    I flipped out several years ago thinking that I had TMV in my garden. I had a plant that I had grown out successfully several times with no issue. Then I started experiencing the leaf deformations that you are having now. Just on one strain, with several strains growing at once.

    Long of the short, I chalked it up to something else (like genetic drift in combination with poor growing practices) and just chopped the thing down and discontinued use of that particular strain. I didn't sterilize my grow rooms or ditch any of the organic potting soil that I was using. Not one single problem after that incident. Not one...

    For peace of mind, test the fucker(s?).  It'll cost you way less than chopping your whole crop and trying to sterilize your greenhouse (good luck with that!)...

    https://orders.agdia.com/InventoryD.asp?attribute_Size=5&collection=ISK+57400&loc=IN
     
  12. #13 Dingus, Aug 8, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 8, 2014
    do you still have any photos of the plant you had that you suspected tmv? I can't put this one down as genetic drift since it happened to two strains.

    I'm more inclined to think it is tmv since the weeds around the GH have some issues too, more likely to have spread inside. I need to really keep up on mowing there then.

    I didn't know there were test strips for this! Idk if I'm down with buying them for that price though, maybe I can find some cheaper.

    Even if it isn't TMV, then it would be either another disease or deficiency. If it's a disease I should still trash it. If it's a deficiency then it's possible I can fix it but it's still not gonna yield as well right?

    Mine as well just chop and replace is what I'm leaning towards. But I will check around first for cheaper TMV test strips

    If I remember correctly I should still have 2-3 weeks more of veg time before outdoor flowering begins.

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  13. So i've marked this thread as solved, but it really isnt... I just chopped the CBD critical mass down as well as another young clone that  was showing symptoms in the greenhouse. I didn't even notice that one showing symptoms until today. With those two out of the greenhouse I hopefully should not have any more with the virus.
     
  14. :( I'm sorry for your loss.
     
  15. thanks. i will miss that cbd critical mass... It was sent to me by a friend across the country. 
     
  16. But now you'll never know if was TMV, or not...  :confused_2:
     
    You couldn't afford $32.50 for 5 test strips?  You're going to spend more than that replacing the herb that you chopped...
     
    And unfortunately, I do not have pic's of the suspected TMV plants.  Wasn't mindful enough back in those days to document stuff like that.  Sorry...
     
    Keep a close eye on your other plants...
     
    Where you having these issues before you started foliar feeding with the neem?
     
  17. Ya the cbd critical and the wonderkush#6 had been showing these symptoms sooo much longer than before I started spraying neem. The neem was for thrips & fungus gnats.

    it's okay. It's not too expensive. This plant and the wonderkush I chopped a while ago had both been showing the symptoms for a month at least. And I had to cut a small clone which id put in a week ago or so that was showing symptoms of it.

    So that means that it is something in the room likely a bacteria or disease that would cause these symptoms. It definitely didn't have the symptoms before putting it out here.

    How am I spending more than 30$ replacing that plant if the plant is likely to have tmv or another virus? It's 30$ to confirm or deny if it's a disease or something else but it seems to be a disease to me since a new plant is showing symptoms.

    I suppose it could be a nutrient deficiency but it doesn't look like anything I've ever had or seen before or could find anything on. The plants still grow at almost the same speed, just all deformed and messed up..

    I'll be watching the replacement plants I just put in very carefully. It seems like only certain plants are getting affected by it.

    If the replacements contract it well then damn.



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  18. #19 waktoo, Aug 9, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2014
    Man, this has really got me stumped...
     
    Do you have any pictures of the weeds you've been pulling that are similarly affected?
     
    Does your greenhouse area border another property that may have been spraying herbicides, like a farm or ranch?
     
    And you did say that the problems only showed up after moving them outside, correct?  And this is the first time you've grown in the greenhouse?
     
    Your soil mix looks very good, although it seems to be missing a humic component, like compost or EWC.  Did you forget to include this in your list?  Is it in your mix? 
     
    Have you grown the problem strains out successfully in the past using this soil mix?
     
    Aaaaaaaand one more...
     
    Did you have the issues prior to applying the neem oil DRENCH?
     
  19. #20 Dingus, Aug 9, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 9, 2014
    Me too! Its got me so stumped that i've just preferred to cut the plants altogether instead of trying to remedy the problem. I've been this stumped about the first two affected plants for a long time also. Since it started happening and i noticed it. But i didn't make a thread on it until I wasn't sure to keep or kill the CBD critical.
     
    I don't have any pics of the weeds but i can go take some in a little bit. Also the weeds aren't showing similar affects. none have deformed leaves like this, but look more like powdery mildew/ downy mildew to me. I'll get photos.
     
    It's possible. I'm like literally in the city. Like tbh its pretty sketch to have a greenhouse like this in the city im paranoid of rippers. My neighbors could be spraying herbicides but I don't know.
     
    Ya only after moving them outside. Also ya, first time in the greenhouse. First outdoor season in general for that matter. I'm still very new to growing, only been doin it for like two years now.
     
    Thanks ya, I actually didn't build it. I bought it from a local organics place that I found highly recommended by people on ICmag called KIS organics.  It definitely could be missing some humus. I actually didn't even notice that there wasn't any mention of that in the ingredients list until you just pointed it out. 
     
    Actually after googling for the website page of the soil mix again I found they have two websites. This one lists the ingredients differently. Perhaps they changed it recently? This one states there is fungal compost in it (vermicompost?)
     
    "Alaska Peat Moss, KIS Fungal Compost, KIS Microbe Catalyst, Pumice/Perlite blend, Gaia Green Canadian Glacial Rock Dust, Calphos Soft Rock Phosphate, Pacific Pearl Oyster Shell Powder, Sulfate of Potash (Sul Po Mag, K Mag), Alfalfa Meal, Fish Bone Meal, Crustacean Meal, Kelp Meal, Ahimsa Organics Neem Cake/Karanja Cake, Tera Vita SP-85 Humic Acid, Fish Meal, Feather Meal, Steamed Bone Meal, Natural Calcite, Mycorrhizae*, and Benefical Microbes."
    http://www.kisfarm.com/shop-2/classes/organic-soil-mix/
     
    Heres the link to the page where I got the ingredients list the first time
     
    http://www.kisorganics.com/products/shop/165
     
    I grew the CBD critical mass successfully indoors earlier this year in either of these mixes, since I don't know which one i have now, there are some slight differences other than the addition of compost.
     
    I did have the issues prior to applying the neem oil drench yes. I did the drench only one time and it wasn't a true drench. After I applied the drench though, on some plants I started to get some N curling going on. And definitely different than the curling from the TMV(or other virus/disease/infection/deficiency) but the N curl has gone away since. 
     
    I will be applying my first compost tea today! brewed for about 36 hours now, about 3 gal of water and 2.5 tbs BSM, 1 cup EWC. I'm going to dilute it a little too.
     
    come stop by my journal wak! I keep track of almost everything on there.
     

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