6X Black Water Og - 400W Mh @ Veg - 1000W Hps @ Flower - Vertical - Scrog - Lst Combo - 500 Gram Yeild Goal

Discussion in 'Indoor Grow Journals' started by greaterthings123, Aug 2, 2014.

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  1. #21 greaterthings123, Aug 13, 2014
    I just picked up my veg bulb...
     
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    I plan to run it at 50% with this ballast...
     
    Apollo.jpg
     
    The ladies are small still, so I don't find it necessary to blast em' with 1,000 watts just yet.
     
    4 plants will be grown in Fox Farms Ocean Forest.  And 2 plants will be grown I CoCo.  I got General Hydroponics CoCoTex in an 11 lb. brick.  Should I use it straight... or can anybody suggest a mix?  Again, my nutrient choice is the Soul Synthetic line.
     
    WIN_20140812_173351.JPG
     
     

     
  2. #22 Ttystikk, Aug 13, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 13, 2014
    Looks like I got here just in time. It is poor practice to run bulbs below their rated output, for many reasons;

    1. Poor lumen efficiency- bulbs are built to provide their best, most efficient output at the rating they're designed for. Underdriving hurts the lumens per watt, meaning that 75% power actually gives closer to 60% of the lumens
    2. Worse, those lumens are spectrum shifted, so the spectrum output of the bulb also suffers. Thus not only quantity, but quality is degraded.
    3. It kills the bulb! This effect is much worse for MH than HPS, but bulbs wear FASTER when under driven, not slower. MH bulbs are very vulnerable; if you run it at 50% output, you'll reduce its effective lifespan by 90%!

    This isn't bullshit; this is from Philips fact sheets about HID lighting and how to get the most from them.

    I'm sorry I was too late to offer advice about your ballast; I'm completely sold on the Philips 860W CDM lamp. The only ballast it will tolerate is a magnetic thouie set for MH. You can get switchable, convertible magnetic ballasts that run 120/240V, MH/HPS for about a Franklin- and then you can run any lamp you like. I'm stuck with three thousand watt digitals, so they're together running one all HPS room as a control vs the CDM lit room- but I don't even care if I'm losing some yield (I bet I'm not), because the plants love the better quality of light so much more.

    Since you have a thousand watt light to run in your vertical setup, place your trellis panels at least 30" or 80cm from the bulb to reduce the potential for overheating. I place a fan in the center blowing upwards and it provides sufficient airflow and ventilation to keep things cool.

    Hope this helps!
     
  3. #23 greaterthings123, Aug 13, 2014
    That is definitely great info that I will look into, especially about running the dimmable option and its affect on bulbs.  What you said about the 30" as a starting point... I will try to arrange things to make this possible, but I think I will be looking at 24" realistically.  I know I will have less lumens using the cool tube, but I am choosing to use it for ventilation ease.  I hope that it will be enough distance.  30" is possible, but I would lose the opportunity for 6 separate screens, have a slight decrease in trellis space, and lose my "educational comparisons" I had in mind when designing the grow?  
     
    I chose the bulb and ballast based on price.  $40 for new bulb.  $110 for new digital ballast.  Assuming you are right about the dimmable settings harming the bulb, ha I known this, I would have gone magnetic.  Do you think running the Apollo 1000 at 50% with a 400 watt MH bulb be worse?  The only benefit would be on my electrical bill.  I have been having to piece this thing together as I have the opportunity.  BUDGET BUDGET BUDGET.  TIGHT BUDGET, I still don't have my inline fan/filter, hps bulb, or ducting.  Its getting better though.  :hello:  
     
  4. #24 Ttystikk, Aug 13, 2014
    If you're trying to grow on a budget, you need to be butting T5 lighting. How much are you trying to grow at a time?
     
  5. #25 greaterthings123, Aug 13, 2014
    I am doing a vertical with 6 plants.  I would be stoked to pull 1g/per watt.  I am eventually piecing together a perpetual grow with 2 or possibly 3 areas.   I am choosing higher plant numbers in an attempt to limit veg time FOR THE VERT.  All will have separate screens in order to maintain the grow better and have better training access.   If you have time please look through my journal thus far.  There is a basic floor plan in the journal and it goes on to explain my trellis space.  I will turn a 24 sq.ft. room into a vertical trellis of 50sq.ft. Thanks!
     
    Here is the spectrum analysis of the bulb I purchased:
     
    WIN_20140812_192955.JPG
     
  6. #26 Ttystikk, Aug 13, 2014
    I had a look through your thread, though I wasn't sure I understood the picture and how you're running the vertical part of the trellis.
     
    I know that you've made some equipment purchases that you can't really take back. In your shoes I would have gotten a 600W setup to better fit the space. Now you'll need to max the thing out to keep the plants far enough from the bulb to avoid light bleaching. You'll need to make sure they're getting plenty of ventilation and humidity to withstand that big bulb... in short, you've got your work cut out. Where is the exhaust for the cool tube going? It needs to leave the room, not just the tent. You'll need a separate veg area, someplace to keep several stages of plants to keep filling your trellis. Doing a one plant at a time perpetual is possible, but it's a bitch IME. The small space could be a blessing or a curse, depends on how well you can manage temps and RH in there.
     
    Hope that helps!
     
  7. #27 greaterthings123, Aug 13, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 13, 2014
    I'm not on a crazy tight budget, but I want to piece the system together over time.  I am "stepping it up," so to speak.  Eventually, I may move to hydro, but not until I have a cycle or two with soil and coco.
     
    I know it is hard to picture what I have "planned".  Future grows will be contained outside of this small room.  I could explain, but what is important now is the vert plan.  The room will have small holes low in the walls for passive air intake.  The carbon filter will be set in the middle of the grow near the floor connected directly to the mogul socket side of the cool tube. (does it matter if the bulb is hung down or if its pointed up?) Air will be pulled through the filter, past the bulb, into the fan and outside. 
     
    I am not familiar with methods to control humidity. Outdoor humidity averages 50-60% through out the year overall, as low as 20% in July, and high as 93% in winter months.  I imagine I will have to use different RH control methods for different extremes?  Please excuse my ignorance and please share your critiques.  I'm not afraid of research, but finding where to start is the hard part.  I want yield.  I want to learn. 
     
  8. #28 Brada Haole, Aug 13, 2014
    there are some great new tools on the market. it will be fun to watch your room come together. It can be an addiction. I keep improving my room I need to upgrade my ac and fix my co2 now. it never ends. :)  I suck at soil hydro made it much easier for me. 
     
  9. #29 greaterthings123, Aug 13, 2014
    Yeah, I am starting to understand why hydro can actually be easier than soil.  It seems a lot of people think hydro is difficult but in reality they just don't understand it and are afraid of it.  I hope my 2 COCO plants show more growth and higher yields than my 4 soil plants.  If this happens, it would help ease me into affording the expense  of a hydro setup. 
     
    In 2 days or so I am transplanting to 5 gallon planters.  I am trying to decide if I want to use pure CoCo, or a mixture of coco/perlite 3/1.  perlite couldn't hurt, but I am trying to figure out if I find it necessary.  Any thoughts?
     
  10. #30 greaterthings123, Aug 15, 2014
    My thouee ballast was delivered today.  Of course I plugged it in... AND DAMN!  She is bright.  I will post pics later.  I still need my inline fan before I run her, apparently these tiny lights get hot... who knew?
     
  11. #31 greaterthings123, Aug 17, 2014
    WHAT'S UP GRASS CITY?!!!!
     
    I hung my cool tube XXXL, ran ducting out of room to cool 1000 watt light, wired and connected 6 inch inline duct fan to intake side of cool tube, mixed mediums (3 - FFOF, 3 - CoCo), and transplanted clones into 5 gallon planters of chosen medium.
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    This is outside the room to window:  WIN_20140816_145955.JPG
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    This is inside the room to cool tube XXL: WIN_20140816_145925.JPG
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    This is the fan I used to vent cool tube: WIN_20140816_151431.JPG
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    These are my girls after transplanting: WIN_20140816_145305.JPG
    (I put clone # 2, 4, and 6 in General Hydroponics CoCoTex, clone # 1, 3, and 5 are in Fox Farms Ocean Forest).
     
    I flushed each 5 gallon planter with 25 gallons of tap water.
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    Better shot showing duct fan: WIN_20140816_145413.JPG
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    I have not yet cut holes for my passive air intakes.  I am figuring out ideal placement for the holes to be for the plan of it being a vertical silo (I want airflow between the walls and the backside of the plants. Eventually I will obtain a 6" 440cfm high velocity fan to ensure air exchange.  I hope placing the passive air intake holes behind the plants will lessen humidity issues and help airflow through-out the room.
     
    How important is developing negative air pressure in the room? The 6" duct will have approximately 28 sq. in. of space venting out the room.  Should passive intake space in the walls be less than this for negative pressure?  
     
    What do you guys think?  I don't have a ph meter, thermometer, or micro-nutrients yet.  There are other things I need to.  If you have been following my journal, what do you think your priorities would be at this time in your grow?????????  AND WHY????????
     
    Assuming I have 6 more weeks in veg, I should be harvesting a week or 2 after THANKS GIVING!!!!
     
  12. #32 snoopdog6502, Aug 17, 2014
     
    Grow more plants, 1,000 will grow much more.
     
  13. #33 greaterthings123, Aug 17, 2014
    Yeah, I know, I am tempted to, but remember the plan is for them to be in a vertical silo eventually.  More plants could fill the screen better, but it may become unmanageable in the space I am in.  I'm using overhead lighting in this current stage of veg, but I do have a plan to hang the thouee vertically when it makes sense.  
     
    I am tempted to go with traditional overhead lighting because of less to think through, but I "believe" in verticals ability to yield well.  Quality is just as important to me as yield, but I don't want to be disappointed either way.  I've ran into a lot of skepticism about my layout being the best way to increase yield.   
     
    I got another question about lighting cycle when transplanting....
     
  14. #34 greaterthings123, Aug 17, 2014
    The plants have been under 24/0 light since I got them.
     
    I just transplanted 4 hours ago. 
     
    They WERE under a 400 watt MH.  Now they are under a 1,000 watt MH. 
     
    Should I dim down my light to 50%?
     
    Should I give them some time to sleep?
     
    Should I change my light cycle?
     
    I WELCOME ALL ADVICE!  Please share different opinions and why you think they are good ideas.
     
  15. #35 fiaburn, Aug 17, 2014
    just keep an eye on the plants. You instantly doubled the light. When I move from my veg room (3k) to flower (9k+) it usually take 3-4 days for me to take the room to full wattage sometimes even longer. Just depends on the strain and how much the environment is changing. Add on that you just transplanted, dimming may not be a bad idea. 24/0 or 18/6 will be just fine for now. I've had positive results with both.
     
  16. #36 GoldGrower, Aug 17, 2014
    I think ttystik is being a bit over dramatic about bulb efficiency. Bulbs are so cheap who cares is you shave a few months of its use. It's worth changing your bulbs regularly anyway. 
     
    It doesn't matter if a dimmed bulb puts out less light either, you are dimming it, if light output was that much of an issue you would have it on full. I have dimmable ballasts and I find the feature very valuable
     
    At the moment I would have it dimmed, at least until you have everything set up and you can take various temperature readings.
     
    Anything from 18/6 - 24/0 is fine. Plants do not sleep, they are just unable to carry on photosynthesising in the dark. I veg mine on 24/0
     
  17. #37 greaterthings123, Aug 17, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 17, 2014
    What do plants do in the dark?  What is the benefit or the argument of the benefit for 18/6 vrs. 24/0?  Does the plant concentrate on root growth at this point?  Is it still drinking?  What is it doing at night night?
     
  18. #38 GoldGrower, Aug 17, 2014
    It shuts down at night. It can't do anything without light. It's literally solar powered. It's just waiting for morning so it can fire up again 
     
  19. #39 Ttystikk, Aug 17, 2014
    I think you need to re-read what I wrote- what I said came straight from Philips themselves. Read the whole thing and pay attention; it says HPS suffers to a lesser extent than MH, but it is still isn't a recommended practice due to undesirable shift in spectrum. In other words, the light sucks.

    For a few days' hardening off under HPS, you won't kill your bulb. The point is not to run your bulbs and ballasts like that long term.
     
  20. #40 greaterthings123, Aug 25, 2014
    I assume I visually see the spectrum shift you are referring to.  When I lit the light I chose to run it at 50% because of heat (no hi-velocity fan just yet). The room visually seemed blue - unlike when I had my 400 watt MH going,  When I turned her up to 75%, which she's at now, the visual blue wet away.  
     
    I think the important part about running the dimmable option is not knowing what light spectrum you are putting out.  IE - the bulb was designed to run at its rated wattage.  I think running it at less would change the spectrum IN MORE THAN JUST LINEAR WAYS.  It may be negative, positive, or neutral, but the point is, there is no way for one to ACTUALLY KNOW.
     
    That said, I am going to continue to run the light at 75%  until I get a legit inline fan, this solves the heat issue. At 100%, my temps are @ 98F.  At 75% they are at 87F.  At 50% they are at 79F, but I don't like how the light appears to my eye.   
     
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