Does Fate Exist?

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by itsofficial, Jul 16, 2014.

  1. First of all let me say I don't post around here a lot, but I can't believe how much this site has grown, its amazing, and the one forum I can go to that has pretty much anything for everyone in one place.
     
     
    I don't know if its because I'm high, stuff thats going on in my life, maybe I'm looking for something more, or just over thinking a thought. Basically what the title says… Do you believe everything happens for a reason, what's suppose to happen will and/or won't happen, maybe even shit like foreshadowing of life, go as far as divine intervention(anyone religious?). If fate does exist, some people(not sure if I do or don't) believe psychics can actually see our fate, future, and outcome of life. I hear a lot of "psychics" are frauds, and just act out a routine to take your money… Well… if there are real psychics out there do you see it as a form of cheating life? I don't know why this is coming to mind, but if we do "cheat" is it more likely not to happen because we're waiting for it to happen? *Whatever it is. Never read the book and only have seen clips of The Secret  but it says if we want something bad enough we'll eventually have it, or something along those lines.
     
    For people who don't believe in fate, do we create our own? If we want something... can't give simple scenarios, "I want a bag of weed" well if fate lines up I'll have a 20 sack by 7pm. I'm talking something that can almost seem unreachable(goals, dreams), or if we're in a very specific situation(think of one), and we want it to go our way. Do we control the result, and if we fail, its simply "we failed and move on"?
     
    FWIW I'm 50/50 on fate, I want to believe it exists, maybe theres some kind of happy medium? I don't know… Final thought: Maybe fate does exist but it has to happen at the right place, and the right time in our life.

     
  2. I believe in faith. Just because there's shit in this universe I just can't accept is the result of coincidence. I'm deist so I do believe in a god just not the one portrayed by Christians or any other religion for that matter.
     
  3. I'm not familiar with deism but do you pray to the god you believe in, or is it more letting things just happen?
     
  4. Everything happens for a reason.

    Fate? It exists as a conception of the mind. It exists if you want it to exists. What exists, exists, you can label it any way you like to try to comprehend it.

    You create your own fate. You have complete control if you want too, but even "complete" is a relatively inspired term. Give it some thought.
     
  5. it depends how you define fate. from your conception, you had a very specific path in life already determined for you. i would argue against psychics and the like, but you can change your circumstances.
     
  6. I like to think god just kind of set things in motion and only interferes when absolutely necessary. I'll try to explain more when I'm sober.
     
  7. Fur sure


    'Too blessed to be stressed'
     
  8. Why would you want to believe that you have no free will, that everything is predetermined, and that no matter what you do or think, you cannot possibly change the outcome, or any of the points between?
     
    When people say "everything happens for a reason," most of them mean it in an incorrect way.
     
    "Everything happens for a reason," actually means "causality."
     
    Every effect is caused by not just one, but multiple causes... and in turn, each of those causes, are actually effects caused by many other causes.
     
    So, really, everything happens because of everything else that has ever happened, and because of everything that is still happening now. And all of that, and everything that happens today, will cause effects in the future. And those effects will cause other effects, so on and so forth, etc.
     
  9. #9 Tokesmith, Jul 20, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 20, 2014
    The present sows the future. Only thing that determines your future is your present actions. Either good or bad you put yourself in that situation. Say a drunk driver hits you, it may not be your fault but you were the one who led yourself to that spot. But if you missed that turn and didn't get hit. You were still the one who forgot and put yourself in a different situation.


    "I'm to drunk, to taste this chicken" -Talladega nights
     
  10.  
     
     
     
    I think that these three hit the nail on the head. They said exactly what i would have.
     
  11. thats what id say too. so were left with the stance of either everything or nothing being fate, whichever sound nicer to you
     
  12. I don't believe in fate. That makes life seem really boring, everything we do causes something to happen but I do not believe it is "pre-written". We are all living life, every moment of it and no one knows what's coming up next!
     
  13. #13 nativetongues, Aug 3, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 3, 2014
    The short is answer is yes.

    The long is answer is I wouldn't really say fate because that usually has the connotation of like some one determining what happens. I don't really believe in the existence of god or immaterial things. I don't subscribe to a dualistic belief which I think a person should probably accept if they believe in free will otherwise it becomes a very weak argument. The only really good argument for free will in my opinion, besides personal subjective feeling, is that there could be immaterial things which might exist that could cause free will. Also, that things could just be completely random or up to chance, which by some modern physics may be the case. However, I subscribe to the belief that dualism has too many flaws for me to accept and as a result I think free will is also something that I can't really believe in. If I believe every human is just a compilation of random cells composed of ever smaller parts composed of atoms, composed of electrons, neutrons, and then like quarks and so and so on just rescuing with each other by the laws of nature then how can I believe that everything that isn't occurring isn't just as a result of previous chemical interactions stemming long before you ever have control. It's easy to argue that something beyond could exist because there's no way to prove or disprove it in the slightest. The only way we can try to understand the universe in my opinion is by looking at the universe. I guess maybe this is the wrong section for me, but that's how I feel about it. Free will is an illusion caused by the interaction between our brain, our body and the environment.
     
  14. #14 nativetongues, Aug 3, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 3, 2014
    [quote name="clevername" post="20308057" timestamp="1405553822"]Why would you want to believe that you have no free will, that everything is predetermined, and that no matter what you do or think, you cannot possibly change the outcome, or any of the points between?

    When people say "everything happens for a reason," most of them mean it in an incorrect way.

    "Everything happens for a reason," actually means "causality."

    Every effect is caused by not just one, but multiple causes... and in turn, each of those causes, are actually effects caused by many other causes.

    So, really, everything happens because of everything else that has ever happened, and because of everything that is still happening now. And all of that, and everything that happens today, will cause effects in the future. And those effects will cause other effects, so on and so forth, etc.[/quote]

    1. really, everything happens because of everything else that has ever happened, and because of everything that is still happening now. And all of that, and everything that happens today, will cause effects in the future. And those effects will cause other effects, so on and so forth, etc.[/quote]

    1. This is one thing we can definitely agree on. The only difference is that we use this to make different conclusions.

    2. Why would you want to believe that you have no free will, that everything is predetermined, and that no matter what you do or think, you cannot possibly change the outcome, or any of the points between?

    2. Well I would want to believe it because to me there is a lot of convincing evidence to suggest that monism and materialism may be a better explanation of our universe than dualism and immaterialism. I strongly believe that the mind is the result of solely physical interactions, considering the overwhelming amount of scientific evidence which supports this theory. Think about it this way as you said before everything is an effect of tons of previous causes and those tons of pervious causes and so on so it's almost it's as if it's like too complex to be ordered and not random. Well I think that's the wrong conclusion. I agree each individual cause is merely causality cause there are so many fucking causes but everything as a whole is the reason for the next thing and every interaction, the previous maybe Planck time before that, is caused by the previous interactions between all things before that going on forever. I believe that there are some fundamental laws of nature which we don't fully know that cause every interaction and are impossible for us to ever truly fully know. If there weren't some fundamental physical laws of nature then how would you see so much order and replicarion in our universe? I agree that things are unpredictable only because there are so many variables which is impossible for us to interpret. If we had the ability interpret all these different variables and moving parts then maybe we could fully understand, but it's impossible by our mathematical and scientific knowledge. That being said it's also impossible to settle through solely philosophical means. It's why I like to consider my belief a mix and match of scientific and philosophical arguments because neither has been able to fully answer the question but I think both present logical arguments which can be utilized. Ultimately by accepting that our world is composed of material and there are consistent physical laws on a level that is beyond our ability to ever fully understand, you pretty much have to accept free will, which is why I choose to believe it. Our maybe it's because I was always destined to.
     
  15. 1. This is one thing we can definitely agree on. The only difference is that we use this to make different conclusions.

    2. Why would you want to believe that you have no free will, that everything is predetermined, and that no matter what you do or think, you cannot possibly change the outcome, or any of the points between?

    2. Well I would want to believe it because to me there is a lot of convincing evidence to suggest that monism and materialism may be a better explanation of our universe than dualism and immaterialism. I strongly believe that the mind is the result of solely physical interactions, considering the overwhelming amount of scientific evidence which supports this theory. Think about it this way as you said before everything is an effect of tons of previous causes and those tons of pervious causes and so on so it's almost it's as if it's like too complex to be ordered and not random. Well I think that's the wrong conclusion. I agree each individual cause is merely causality cause there are so many fucking causes but everything as a whole is the reason for the next thing and every interaction, the previous maybe Planck time before that, is caused by the previous interactions between all things before that going on forever. I believe that there are some fundamental laws of nature which we don't fully know that cause every interaction and are impossible for us to ever truly fully know.

    [/QUOTE] 
    So you believe that all choice is illusory and you have no control over the outcome?
     
    Seems weird to me. Seems like that stance would require ignoring parts of reality, particularly the fact that people can make choices, based on whatever criteria they prefer.
     
  16. Hey sorry I posted before I meant to and I just finished editing the other post.
     
  17. #17 nativetongues, Aug 3, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 3, 2014
    Alright this is where it gets a little tricky when it comes to wording.
    Yes people go through a decision making process and make a choice based on their preferences every day. I 100% agree that that happens. I don't think that that choice is by their own free will though but rather we are always responding based on an interaction between stimuli our sensory perception and our brain. I think these are all caused by physical reactions which are dictated by some fundamental physical laws that we won't ever truly know but will always get a better and better idea of throughout time. Quick thought experiment. Say I took all the conditions of this moment in time right now and I recreated it by putting every single piece of matter and energy all the way down to the quarks, neutrinos and so on in the same condition with the same orientation, velocity, location, acceleration, temperature, and every other condition perfectly. Would the same exact moment still occur as the moment I was recreating or would something different happen?
     
  18. #18 clevername, Aug 3, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 3, 2014
    the quote is messed up somehow...
     
    Anyway, i think you're trying to cram it into an absolutism. It's half "quantum causality" and half "open to modification by choice."
     
    If we do not intervene, it will play out as it will. If we intervene, it will play out with whatever alterations are caused by our interacting interventions.
     
    Choice negates fate; fate negates choice.
     
    "I think, therefore i am."
     
    I "know" that i can choose, and that i can also decide not to choose. This shows me that there is no predetermined course or destination (unless you want to include "the heat death of the universe" as a fated universal destination, over which we have no control at all... which, for the purpose of this context, i don't think is a valid inclusion).
     
    Not all parts of the future have already been predetermined in the past. Much of what we experience is a direct or indirect effect of the cause of our choices ("our" meaning "humans").
     
     
    edit: when people say "life is what you make it" that's only a partial truth. I say: life is part what you make it, and part what it makes you. You are part what life makes you, and part what you make yourself.
     
    "Chaos" isn't necessarily entirely "random." Random would imply exemption from the laws of nature and what we have defined as "physics." Nothing really deviates from that, except in cases where we have miscalculated or misunderstood physics, and applied flawed definitions to nature.
     
    “In all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder a secret order.”
    - C.G. Jung
     
  19. Do you believe that the human mind is the result of physical interactions between the brain our body and the environment?
    How can you ever truly prove that by choosing to sit out you're not merely just responding to my action which was a response to previous actions? It's not like we can sit in an alternate universe and say oh something different happened in this universe. We can try to answer it through different types of arguments. I agree with Descartes on this at least in the manner in which I was taught to believe this phrase means. I agree that I am thinking so even if my sensory perception is being completely fooled all the time, there is something to fool, so I must exist even if it's actually something beyond the universe. Even if I'm always dreaming or being fooled by an evil demon. I think that it's very clever but it doesn't prove dualism to me or free will. Just because we know we exist doesn't mean that all our actions don't have causes. If you're gonna say that we have free will to me it means that you have to take the stance that nothing is every truly caused by a certain set of conditions. To me that just seems unlikely when you consider all the replication and scientific research that has occurred which has consistently shown that certain conditions for physical reactions will pretty much always lead to certain outcomes. The closer people come to recreating perfect conditions the closer scientists get to more accurate results which is why I would say if you completely perfectly recreated the conditions of the whole universe then you would see the exact same moment happen again.
     
  20.  
    It would be impossible for you to recreate this moment identically in every way. It is immeasurably complex. To assume what would happen in an identical recreation of a moment, is to reach further than the evidence or even rational assumption can legitimately take you. You would have to recreate these conditions by creating all the prior causes leading up to this moment.
     
    But sure, if all the stimuli were identical in an identical moment, it would be most likely that i would make exactly the same choices, if literally zero factors were different at all. I would already be thinking the same things as i am, for the same reasons i am right now, which means there is no "point" to be made with such a thought experiment, because you'd be necessarily replicating intangible parts of the human experience, for all involved parties (which is essentially all living beings).
     
    I've encountered many circumstances where i pretty much had to mentally "flip a coin" and just pick a thing, based on whatever i felt in the moment when i became ready to choose between two equivalently appealing choices. All of those particular choices could have gone either way... or they even could have gone the alternative way, and i could have simply run out of time in the opportunity window of choice.
     
    The interesting part is that, at any moment, a person can make a choice, for any reason or none at all, to impose a terminal condition upon another living entity... which i suppose would be similar, somewhat, to the definition of "fate." But that wouldn't be the case for everyone. And i think "fate" means everyone's life is predetermined, which precludes choice.
     
    But i know that i can choose. It's self-evidence. I don't know any other way to explain it.
     

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