The Pre-Eminence Of Mind Over Matter

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by Account_Banned283, Jul 5, 2014.

  1. #421 Kimono, Jul 20, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 20, 2014
     
    I understand what immaterialism means, its nature is such that it obviously cannot be referenced directly. It can only be alluded to that is what my I am using absence in examples such as the whole darkness and light analogy. Yes, all of that is with regards to the absence in the physical realm, and does not directly address immaterialism( because like you said it can't be touched, felt, studied or understood within physical life). This discourse requires that I use such analogies, but they are not to be taken directly (and hence confused as a poor understanding of immaterialism) but rather they are to be used for purposes of extrapolation.
     
    Admittedly the plane analogy was a bit dicey, but basically I was trying to say that the absence of the reference point of stillness would result in a loss in the visual realization of movement, in other words I need something that is the opposite of movement to realize it, just as how I believe that the realization of the physical requires the existence of something that is not physical.( I am not saying that you won't have the intellectual knowledge that planes is moving, the airspeed indicator would tell you this, but you would not see/realize the movement of the plane visually anymore it would be an abstract understanding as opposed to a tangible realization). Again this example is for purposes of extrapolation.
     
    1=1, 2=1+1, 3=1+1+1, are based one fundamental concept, namely, 1 (pun not intended). The difference is not inherent. 2 on its own means nothing without first establishing the concept of 1. In fact one could say that 2 is really is the symbolic shorthand for 1+1, the difference is quantitative and not qualitative. Even 0.384 is is only real in relation to the concept of 1. Hence 1 is all that exists really every other number defines how many or how few 1s you have. 0.384 is used to denote smaller increments of that same concept of 1, even here there is no qualitative difference.   

     
  2. #422 Account_Banned283, Jul 20, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2014
    For those who need help:
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj4HisssD_Y
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLcdKXE4R0s
     
    If nothing else has come from this thread, I hope that those denying the self-evident difference between brain and mind have had their fallacies amended.
     
  3. #423 Timesplasher, Jul 21, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 21, 2014
    Please keep in mind :) that i have the ability to form opinions from multiple collection of factors and personal experiences. Sum logical, sum abstract, sum just because i dont care less. Thats what makes us unique. Individuality is a product of the mind it has creative ability to abstract subjective meaning from a objective space.
     
  4. #424 Account_Banned283, Jul 21, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2014
     
    That post wasn't made in reference to you, but it does affirm what that post was asserting, so thank you.
     
  5.  
    Lol, you're a trip Effy..
     
     
    Best part.. at 2:50.
    "The human mind, what's the distinction with the brain there?"
    'Well, in a sense we don't know..'
     
    FYI, cognitive neuroscience is still neuroscience. It's the study of how cognitive functions are produced by neural pathways and circuits, meaning the chemical and electrical signals produced by the brain. It's a search for how the brain creates the "mind"..
     
    That other video.. eh. Made by Gaiam, which is a lol yoga/meditation/guru organization that supports Kymatica, DMT: The Spirit Molecule, and various other pseudoscience like tarot, physic readings, crop circles, and chemtrails. In other words, really classy stuff. :rolleyes:
     
  6.  
    Followed by her questioning how would a pattern of electrical activity in a brain cell relate to thinking about morality.. That is what cognitive neuroscience is. It's a mix of psychology and neuroscience.. how the brain creates the mind. That is not what you've been trying to get at with this thread, hence the title "pre eminence of mind over matter" and the numerous times you said the mind creates the brain and that the mind remains after the death of the brain. It's not like the entire brain is your mind, if you had conscious access to everything in your brain you'd go haywire.. but the mind is created by the brain (what she is searching for in the video you posted) and resides within the brain. In other words, it's still your brain. When your brain dies, your mind dies cause it's no more or less physical interaction within your brain.
     
  7. #427 Account_Banned283, Jul 22, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2014
    Followed by her questioning how would a pattern of electrical activity in a brain cell relate to thinking about morality.. That is what cognitive neuroscience is. It's a mix of psychology and neuroscience.. how the brain creates the mind.
     
    Yeah, how the brain creates the mind, meaning first of all that they are different.
     
    That is not what you've been trying to get at with this thread, hence the title "pre eminence of mind over matter" and the numerous times you said the mind creates the brain and that the mind remains after the death of the brain.
     
    No, it wasn't originally, but then you and a few others began to dispute that there was any distinction between the two of them, at which point the thread was flung into a rabbit hole from which it hasn't emerged since. And as for the ''mind creates the brain and 'the mind remains after the death of the brain.'' - I only began to talk about those things after you had questioned me on them - if you read the original post it mentions nothing of the sort.
     
    but the mind is created by the brain (what she is searching for in the video you posted) and resides within the brain.
     
    I've never seen somebodies mind inside of their brain, nor any of the thoughts or imaginings supposedly attendant in them, and nor have you or any other empiricist, but if you wish to deviate from the philosophical tradition which you uphold so devoutly by implying something that completely opposes it, then go ahead.
     
    In other words, it's still your brain.
     
    Despite the qualities of a mind being entirely different from those of a brain.
     
  8.  
    If the brain creates the mind, and the mind resides within the brain, then it is part of the brain. What is confusing about that? As for the "rabbit hole" that was all things related. You're trying to push a sliver of your personal belief out there without giving up the rest for fear of ridicule. Asking what happens to the mind after the brain dies isn't a rabbit hole concept, it's entirely related to you trying to show the mind isn't just physical interactions within the brain.
     
     
    Orly?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FsH7RK1S2E
    One day we will be able to display every thought running through your mind.. because all it is is physical interactions that can be read.
     
  9. #429 Boats And Hoes, Jul 22, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 22, 2014
     
    That does not prove the mind is the brain, or that we can produce a mind; it simply proves that the operations of the brain can be re-created, or engendered, by recording and emulating the operations of the brain.
     
  10. #430 Boats And Hoes, Jul 22, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 22, 2014
    But, I liked the vid.. thanks for that.. I once saw vid about something similar.. I think they were recreating the patterns of a cat's brain in that vid.
     
  11. #431 Account_Banned283, Jul 22, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2014
     
    If the brain creates the mind, and the mind resides within the brain, then it is part of the brain.
     
    The mind doesn't strictly ''reside'' within the brain, as I've said, we haver never ''found'' a mind within a brain, nor could we find anything that pertains directly to the mind, such as a thought or feeling, only the physical networks whereby the thoughts and feelings, according to you, emerge and come into existence. Therefore a materialist cannot say of the mind that it ''resides'' in the brain, but only that it depends upon, and is created by, the brain.
     
     You're trying to push a sliver of your personal belief out there without giving up the rest for fear of ridicule.
     
    ..I don't care about ''ridicule'' - you've said previously that I have not shown how the minds differences from the brain are self-evident, but I only say that the differences are self-evident, because, more so than anything else, we know by our very own consciousness that the qualities of a mind are entirely different from those of a brain, without having to undergo the exertion of comparing two objects of perception with one another, for the mind that compares is the perceiver itself, and the reason I had wished to remain terse in regards to any other opinions I held about the mind was that I thought it necessary for people to understand this before they were even capable of forming a coherent response to the original post.
     
    One day we will be able to display every thought running through your mind.. because all it is is physical interactions that can be read.
     
    I talked of this in another post, and how even if there was a perfect replication of our minds thoughts and perceptions to be shown, it would be a secondary and artificial viewing, it would not be the experience, or the perception itself, and the video posted only enforces that the experiences that the subject underwent whilst watching the clip were not experiences of brain functioning, but of perception, whereas the reconstruction was an imitation of brain functioning, which gave them a rough image of what the perception might look like, proving that the perception itself has no chance of being seen directly within a brain, thus again showing, that the mind is not locatable within the brain.
     
  12. You want to really know what's preeminent? Boobs.
     
  13. #433 Account_Banned283, Jul 23, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2014
    ''Although the whole of this life were said to be nothing but a dream and the physical world nothing but a phantasm, I should call this dream or phantasm real enough, if, using reason well, we were never deceived by it.''
     
  14.  
     
     
    No problem. I can honestly say that there isn't a day that does by that I don't ponder on my brain.. unless it's a day where I wake up and instantly am busy and stay busy all day, which is like never. If I ever decided to get my ass back in school, I'd focus on neuroscience and apply it to the cognitive functions of dog brains.. You've already studied the shit out of the mind, I think you should switch focus and incorporate some studies on the brain. If you have an honest interest, I can recommend some documentaries.
     
    Here's what I want to know though. What makes you believe the mind is apart from the brain? Look at it this way, color is perceived by your brain. If it was your mind, you could literally change how you see color at will.. but you can't. If you disable parts of the brain that deal with emotions, you won't feel them. There are people out there that are so clinically depressed that the only thing that will work for them is deep brain stimulation, where they hook up electrodes to stimulate their emotions. Changes in the brain directly effect your mind, and when you have an actual mental illness, you can't use your mind to will it away. Everything about your mind, your emotions and memories, your thought processes, your personality, all that is dependent on the physical traits of your brain. Left handed people and right handed people have notable differences in their personality because they are dominate with different sides of their brain.
     
    So if the mind relies on the brain, is controlled by the physical aspects of the brain, and dies when the brain dies, why do you see more? I'm not saying that the mind is non existent, just that it is a feature of your brain.. I'm honestly curious as to what people see and feel that makes them believe they are more than their brain. I mean, I get that the idea that you're just a bundle of chemical and electrical signals can be a depressing thought, so is that the main hold up for people?
     
    I'd like for you to try an experiment. I mentioned it earlier in here, but give it a shot as it doesn't take much. Find a straw or pencil and hold it long ways in your mouth. Think of when you watch a pirate movie and they put a knife in their teeth to climb a ladder, but use a straw. Try to keep it from pressing on your lips. Then find a laugh track, close your eyes and just listen. More than likely you'll start laughing, I know I do. I even feel humor while thinking "why the hell am I finding this funny.." What is happening is when you force your face into that position, it activates certain neurons that are typically active when laughing. Add in other people laughing and more neurons fire away through social mimicry, and that combination makes you laugh and even feel humor. Everyone I know who I've gotten to do this had the same exact thing happen, I'd be interested in other reactions though.
     
    Side story, I always smile. You'll rarely see me in public without a smile, and people comment and ask why I am always smiling. The other week I was at WaWa, the same one I always go to.. and there was a guy who always says something about me smiling, kind of annoying actually. The last time he said something and I go "well, the act of smiling activates neurons in your brain that are responsible for smiling, which in turn helps to make you happy.." and his response was "oh" and I flashed him a cheesy smile and left. Hasn't said anything about it since..
     
     
    If the mind doesn't reside in the brain, where does it? You can't really claim that you know where it doesn't if you don't know where it does..
     
    I want you to try and answer at least one these following questions. Feel free to answer them yourself as well Boats.
     
    1. What do you see that makes you think it's self evident? You keep saying that it's self evident, yet you haven't actually said how it's self evident. Obviously I don't see it as self evident and I am not alone in that. So for all those who believe the mind is in the brain and created by the brain, explain to us how it's self evident. There must be a reason.. I can say that it's self evident that the sky looks blue, but there is reasoning as to how and why it's blue.
     
    2. How is your concept of the mind different than the concept of the soul? "It just isn't" won't work for me, and the way you describe your belief with the mind is eerily similar to the concept of the soul. If it's not, correct me.
     
  15. #436 Account_Banned283, Jul 23, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2014
    ^^ Have you ever thought that perhaps instead of expecting people to lessen their own vocabulary so that you can understand them, you should instead try to enlargen your own?
     
     
    If the mind doesn't reside in the brain, where does it? You can't really claim that you know where it doesn't if you don't know where it does..
     
    That is the point, it does not appear, through the exercise of reflection, to be composed by a certain collection of traits that would enable it to have any fixed ''residence'' such as those composing a physical object would allow, though it may be contained temporarily within the brain - as for the second sentence - it is in fact very easy, and non-contradictory, to claim to know that something does not ''reside'' in a particular place, without knowing where it does in fact reside, in the same way that when we are looking for a phone, we can, by looking, know that it is not under a pillow, and still at the same time know by necessity that it must be somewhere else, in some form or other.
     
    1. What do you see that makes you think it's self evident?
     
    1. I see that the mind cannot be seen within a brain.
     
    2. I see that the qualities of my mind are entirely different from those of my brain.
     
     I can say that it's self evident that the sky looks blue, but there is reasoning as to how and why it's blue.
     
    The only difference between observing the sky and the mind, is the direction at which we point our perception.
     
    2. How is your concept of the mind different than the concept of the soul?
     
    It probably isn't, but those derisive intimations and suspicions laid by many on the term ''soul'', do not deter me from following the trail that sensible and fair-minded deduction leads me down.
     
  16. Lol.

    You make me lol effy. What's up with the effeminate name?
     
  17. EDIT: ..actually, never mind.
     
  18. Just saying, my friend. You can isolate the variables. A burger is still a burger, even without vegetables.

    Sent from my LG-D801 using Grasscity Forum mobile app
    But don't mind me, I'll be here reading the dictionary upside down.

    Sent from my LG-D801 using Grasscity Forum mobile app
     
  19. Mantikore be busting out some reality checks for people
     

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