My Organic Mix - Looking For Feedback

Discussion in 'Growing Organic Marijuana' started by stickofbutter, Apr 22, 2014.

  1. #1 stickofbutter, Apr 22, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 22, 2014
    Hello all! So I just mixed up my first batch of bucket soil and I wanted to get the communities feedback on my recipe. So my questions are this:
     
    1. Is this mix going to be too nute heavy? I'm worried about nitrogen burning specifically - I can easily "thin" it down at this point as it has just been mixed. At this point I plan on using an additional .7 cu ft of Fox Farms (remainder of bag) once I get another adequate container to hold the extra soil. 
     
    2. Are there any specific minerals/nutrients/trace elements I am missing? Are epsom salts a necessary addition if I already have azomite and lime in the soil? 
     
    3. I need to use this soil in buckets within a week, but it was just mixed today. I know that optimally up to a month should be given for amendments to even out, so how should I go about handling this?
     
    4. Is FF really worth the extra cost?
     
    5. Is more aeration/water retention needed? (sphagnum/peat moss/perlite) I am using 3 gal smartpots that will be suspended in a perlite waterbath.  (wicking). 
     
    Here is the mix:
     
    2.3 Cu Ft. Fox Farms Ocean Forest
    4 Cups kelp meal
    1 1/2 cups bone meal
    1 1/2 cups blood meal
    2 1/2 cups alfalfa meal
    1 cup Hi-cal Lime (ph buffering and contains magnesium)
    3 cups azomite
    5 cups vermiculite
    13lbs earthworm castings (awesome local stuff)
     
     
    Open to any and all suggestions.
     
    Thanks!
     

     
  2. #2 tenshuu, Apr 22, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 22, 2014
    I'm no organic veteran here, but that soil will definitely not be viable in a week (too hot), and seems a bit heavy on the nutrition amendments (not the best person to ask in that area though)

    If possible it would be best to start your plants in a low nute soil and while they veg for a few weeks, let the soil cycle, then transplant your ladies.

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using Grasscity Forum mobile app
     
  3. Unfortunately my babies have already been vegging in said soil, and are about ready for a transplant. I might just have to make them hold out a little longer. 
     
    Thanks for the feedback!
     
  4. I was afraid of that haha. Hopefully this will catch the attention of some of the more experienced guys then, I just know that mix is definitely going to be too hot for seedlings, but your ladies are a little older...good luck with them! What's your grow setup anyway?

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using Grasscity Forum mobile app
     
  5. Still in the process of getting everything up and ready, but the basic premise is an all organic soil base fed by a 600w HPS in smartpots that wick water from a perlite tray. Mylar for reflection and I hope to add C02 by home-brewing beer (two birds with one stone :D). The space is relatively small, and has unique dimensions (I live in an A frame so I'm dealing with 45 degree angles). Standard ventilation setup through the air hood. I plan on being sparing with additional nutrients as I'm sure this mix will have everything my babies will nee :). However, I would like to experiment around with some teas. This time around I'm growing PPP from Nirvana along with a couple random sativas. Eventually, (although I'm not sure if it will happen this cycle) I plan on having a mother/clone setup, but at the moment all clones will be diverted to my outdoor grow. I'll be creating a journal in the near future, so there will be plenty of pictures and more information then. 
     
    This is my first time growing indoors, so I'm very excited.
     
    Cheers!
     
  6. I've read a lot of good stuff about the Smart Pot in a tray of perlite for roots and soil moisture. Eventually I think I might do the same, thought of SIP but I really like the smart pots. Your setup sounds good. Hopefully the soil you just built can be incorporated this generation haha

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using Grasscity Forum mobile app
     
  7. Soil wont burn if allowed to cycle before use. I say just go for it. Your plants may show nute burn, they may not...good luck.

    Youre riding the red line for azomite use. Keep it to 1 cup per cu ft at the very most. There is a danger of al+++ toxicity if your pH is too low. I personally have cut azomite out of my recipe and will be using basalt or glacial from now on.

    You probably don't need Epsom salts.

    Ffof is not worth the extra cost, you can make better soil yourself.

    You will most likely want more aeration for the soil, what you use is a matter of preference and availability.
     
  8. Vermiculite holds a lot of water, so if you want to use the sip trays, be careful. Some other guys here have had some issues with soil that didn't drain well enough for the sip set up. You probably should add a lot more aeration. Perlite, pumice, lava gravel. Several options, just get enough in there.

    FF is shit, take that out and add some peat and you would be better off. For future reference, ditch the lime and add some kind of crustacean meal. Neem cake would be a better addition then the blood and bone meal. Gypsum, grd and/or oyster shell flour would probably be better then the azomite.
     
  9. I am loving the feedback, thanks for all the advice everyone.
     
    I think I have decided to use this initial batch of soil as a nutrient-rich base for use as a element in future mixes.
     
    If the community was to do such a thing, how would they use this batch of amendment as a base for a future mix?
    What would be the componets of aeration? My local gardener suggested coco coir over peat moss for environmental as well as moral reasons. I currently have sphagnum peat moss, but would be happy to switch to coir if that was the preferable option.
     
    As far as the smartpot-wick strategy goes, does the community have any advice? I have heard of this strategy in experimental terms, and thought it to be logically sound, but further research is required.
     
     
    Thanks again for the support, looking forward to the growth of this soil!
     
  10. Dude, go to the indoor growing forum and check out "indoor growing with out bottled nutrients" or "easy soil mix for beginners" in the organics forum. I think those are the names. Anyway, shit loads of info there to help you out with portions and measurements.

    Peat is better then coco, a much higher cec. Moral reasons to not use peat? LOL, do tell.

    There is another thread in the organics forum call noob wannab's sip something or another. Lol, sorry I don't have links. On my phone and don't feel like going back and forth. They are easy to find.
     
  11. 1 cup Hi-cal Lime (ph buffering and contains magnesium)
     
    "contains magnesium"
     
    Well, not really...not much... 0-5%... 
     
  12. #12 waktoo, Apr 23, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2014
     
    You need some form of aeration component in your mix.  Perlite or rice/buckwheat hulls, pine BARK, or even bagged composted wood chips.  Vermiculite won't fit the bill.  It absorbs water, which will make your mix more dense.
     
    How much did all that FFOF cost you?  I bet peat moss and perlite is comparable, if not cheaper...
     
     
    Ag' lime?  2%.  Yeah, not much magnesium.
     
    Epsom salts (MgS0[SUB]4[/SUB])...
     
    Magnesium - 10% by weight
    Sulfur - 14% by weight
     
  13. Hey hey, thanks for the input.
     
    As far as the coco coir goes, the "moral" reasons are as simple as coco coir is a far more sustainable resource. Coconut husks are a byproduct of an industry, while peat is harvested from the destruction of peat bogs, an incredible natural resource. I advocate for voting with what you support, and I am doing my best to support a positive, green, future. 
    Here is a link: http://gardenrant.com/2009/04/ken-druse-dishes-the-dirt-about-peat-moss.html
     
    I'll look up the article on sipping, thanks! 
     
  14. #14 stickofbutter, Apr 24, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2014
    Alright all, so what are the thoughts on this alteration of the mix
     
     
    3 Cu Ft. Fox Farms Ocean Forest
    1 Cu Ft. Sphagnum Peat Moss (Looking for input)
    1 Cu Ft. Perlite (Looking for input)
    4 Cups kelp meal
    1 1/2 cups bone meal
    1 1/2 cups blood meal
    2 1/2 cups alfalfa meal
    1 cup Hi-cal Lime (ph buffering and contains magnesium)
    3 cups azomite
    5 cups vermiculite
    13lbs earthworm castings (awesome local stuff)   (should I add more to balance this mix?)
    X epsom salts                     (looking for input, not sure how to balance with magnesium input from Hi-Cal lime) 
    \nShould I add more EWC?
    \nThe FFOF cost me ~35 for 3 Cu. Ft.
    \nCost, although relevant, is inferior in focus to the quality of the setup I am trying to make here, so please make suggestions with a qualitative purpose in mind.
    \n\n\n\n"  For future reference, ditch the lime and add some kind of crustacean meal. Neem cake would be a better addition then the blood and bone meal. Gypsum, grd and/or oyster shell flour would probably be better then the azomite. "
    \nThanks for the advice! I will try to add these mixes in the future, but I am curious as to how they could be incorporated into what I am working with now, considering I am expanding my mix. 
    \nThanks!
     
  15.  
    Not concerned about the terpenes and VOCs in pine?  I've heard if you compost the pine bark, that will volatilize the terpenes (make them gaseous so they can escape).....
     
    This will be an easy answer - it's about the terpenes contained in pine, redwood, et al. varieties vs. the ones found in fir.

    Fir chips provide a healthy environment for fungi hyphae as in hiding places, specific exudes that facilitate their growth, etc.

    Redwood and/or cedar are the absolute worst choices given their high aromatic profile (from their terpenes) cause any number of problems in a microbe colony. That's why these bark products are used to reduce 'weeds' in a flower garden.

    Then again the term 'weed' is relative to the benefit that a plant provides.

    HTH

    LD

     
  16.  
    Here's a good post on peat vs coir that my man thomasmfjefferson2 posted:
     
    "The anti-peat movement began in Europe where, because of population density, limited peat deposits, and centuries-long use of the resource, they are at the point where finding substitutes for peat makes sense. But the same is not the case in North America. Of the peat lands in North America, only 0.02 percent (2/100 of 1 percent) are being used for peatharvesting. On this continent peat is forming some five to ten times faster than the rate at which we are using it. And even if we don't include bogs located so far north that their use would never be economic, peat is still a resource that is forming much faster than we are using it. To my mind that is the definition of a renewable resource.

    Obviously, it behooves us to make sure that every natural resource is managed sustainably and that unique areas are protected. My investigations into the peat moss industry don't give me cause to worry. Just out of curiosity, though, I have explored locally available peat alternatives. The crumbly insides of well-rotted maple and birch tree trunks on the forest floor gave reliable results in potting mixtures.

    For warmer climates kenaf has shown promise. The kenaf plant, which can grow up to 15 feet tall in four months, is cut and dried in the field. Its fiber is valuable for papermaking, and the remaining stem cores, both composted and uncomposted, have been used as a growing medium. In some trials a kenaf substrate proved more successful than peat moss.

    Someday we may need to find a substitute for peat moss, but I do not believe that day is here. In fact, I do not believe it ever needs to arrive. But if we do need a substitute, some of the present contenders, like coir fiber imported, at great expense and energy, from faraway South Pacific islands, which need that organic matter to maintain their own soil fertility, make very little sense. If I am going to react against using peat to improve agricultural soils, I want to do it with all the facts at hand, both as to whether the problem actually exists and as to whether the supposed solution is logical and environmentally appropriate." -Eliot Coleman -- The New Organic Grower pg 118.

    A few things to note:

    1) In the US, most of the peat moss comes from Canada.

    2) Most coco coir in the US is shipped long distance from Sri Lanka although some coco comes from Mexico. Either way, that organic matter is supposed to fall on the ground, decompose, and become soil for the coconut trees. By shipping the coir halfway across the world, we are removing that organic matter from the soil where it belongs.

    3) Peat Moss has a higher Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC) rating, so it holds onto far more nutrient ions than coco coir and it will be a better buffer against pH problems etc than coco.

    4) Many coco coir products (especially the highly processed, loose coir in bags) come inoculated with trichoderma spores. Trichoderma is a fungi that is known to antagonize Mycorrhizal fungi in soil. It is really cheap and easy to produce so it is found in a lot of beneficial bacteria/fungi inoculants.

    5) Baled peat moss from the big box stores like Home Depot etc is unprocessed--just baled and shipped. It is full of beneficial soil microbes already.

    All in all, I think peat moss is a superior medium that is much cheaper than coco coir. The whole sustainability thing is a moot point IMO when comparing to coco coir because of the long distance it must come to the US. Peat moss does act like a Carbon sink, but barging coco coir across oceans doesn't make any more sense to me.

    Their are other replacements for peat moss that make much more sense than coco coir: kenaf, black leaf mold, RePeet (made from cow manure), and others I am sure.

     
     
    Also worth noting, when considering coco coir, are the issues surrounding the coir industry's use of child labor (http://stopchildlabor.org/?cat=208) and "bonded" slave labor <a>(http://www.du.edu/korbel/hrhw/researchdigest/slavery/india.pdf)</a>
     
    And the environmental impacts of shipping coir all the way from Sri Lanka.... 
     
  17.  
    I suggested pine bark because wet' used to use it all the time.  If memory is serving me well... 
     
    I emphasized BARK for a reason.  I know that pine wood chips are no bueno, but I think the bark is safe, even un-composted. 
     
    Perhaps I'm wrong.
     
  18. #18 stickofbutter, Apr 24, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2014
    Excellent post, and thank you for doing the in-depth research I should have done in the first place. I based my opinion on the words of a few locals backed up by apparently not thorough research. Ultimately, the local options are always the best, so I will attempt to find a local source for my peat moss. I'll spread the knowledge you spread to me back down through the chain, much appreciated.
     
    Misinformation kills me, thanks again. 
     
  19. This is not a direct knock on anyone, just a general observation.
     
    I think its funny people care about how their peat or coco is farmed. Everything you interact with on a daily basis is fucking up the environment, and built on the backs of slaves/low wage employees. 
     
    Nothing worse than half-assed self-righteousness. 
     
  20.  
    TJ did all the leg-work lol I just remembered where it was, and copied it lol.  It's not a fatal mistake by any means, but I could tell you're passionate about trying to "vote" with your money, and helping the world, which I think is awesome, so I just wanted to arm you with info.
     
    Sometimes the toughest part about learning is realizing all the mistakes you made in the past lol Cause we've all done it
     
    "Now you know, and knowing is half the battle."  -G.I. Joe
     

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