re using/recycling soil for over a year

Discussion in 'Growing Organic Marijuana' started by nernerderd, Mar 1, 2014.

  1. #61 nernerderd, Apr 22, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2014
    Right on. Yea I edited a bit in my last post as you were just posting(wetdog). I guess I'll just wait and see. Things haven't started dying in my mix yet. I still get good growth. Mainly it's only the one strain that seems to choke on it a bit during veg. Others show a bit of discoloration but grow vigorously. Flowering also does well as long as the plant comming out of vegging is good'n healthy.  As in if i can take a clone and plant it into a small pot, with a gerneric potting mix, and maybe a bit of EWC... grow it for a bit, then trasplant into my mix directly before throwing it into flower(maybe waiting a few days).... it seems to do vary well as long as i transplant into a much larger container.  I've been leaning to 10 gallon and 15 gallon pots.
     
    -shodan

     
  2. #62 waktoo, Apr 23, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2014
     
  3. Wak
     
    Tell me, or both of us actually, if he does have an EXTREME lack of trace elements, wouldn't an application of Azomite be the best solution? One cup/cf is a light application, but certainly more than enough for trace elements. Trace being almost undetectable amounts of whatever.
     
    Zinc is easy, simply stick a galvanized nail in the soil. Laugh if you want, but it does work.
     
    Copper, I'm not as sure of, since it can be toxic. I have used copper wire to kill saplings in ornamental plantings that I couldn't get to to cut or dig up. Perhaps some copper sulfate fungicide? But, IDK if that would supply any copper or not.
     
    But the Azomite would take care of any trace or mineral issues.
     
    Wet
     
  4. #64 waktoo, Apr 23, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2014
     
    Azomite has been applied to the soil mix.  http://forum.grasscity.com/organic-growing/1286499-re-usingrecycling-soil-over-year.html#entry19609525
     
    In copious amounts...
     
    And yet, through several periods of soil cycling, trace elements (at acceptable levels for nutrient rich soils) are not prevalent in the soil chemical analysis.
     
    ????
     
  5. ???????? Indeed.
     
    Well, that shoots my wad.
     
    If Azomite was applied in those amounts and are still not available, what the hell is locking them out?
     
    I am at a total and complete loss. Your soil science is way beyond mine and I hope you puzzle it out, since Occam's Razor don't cut it here.
     
    Wet
     
  6. #66 waktoo, Apr 23, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2014
     
    Wet has made a very valid observation here.  With the azomite AND the kelp (ascopyllum nodosum?  That's important!) that you've mixed into your soil, these trace elements that you are "lacking" should be present in more than ample amounts.  So why are they "locked up", or unavailable, and not showing up in the soil chemical analysis?
     
    I suspect it might have something to do with your brewing and application of compost teas.
     
    Can you tell me EXACTLY what your recipe is (ingredients and what brand), and how long you brew for?
     
  7. Even locked out, shouldn't they still show up on the analysis? I mean, locked out means unavailable, not invisible. Or, does it?
     
    Something is just not adding up right.
     
    Wet
     
  8.  
    You're absolutely right.  If it's on the CEC, it'll show in the report. 
     
    I suspect things may be locked up microbially, or still in the OM.  I need to talk to shodan to get a better idea of HOW he brews and utilizes teas.  I'll bet he's added plenty of bacterium and fungi to his soils (even this is suspect if he used Wiggle Worm EWC), but not enough protozoa to actually finish the cycling process.  The shit's there, it just hasn't been made available to the plant or the CEC.
     
    I suspect...
     
  9. #69 nernerderd, Apr 24, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2014
     
    yes! as im reading through all these awesome links on this thread i am realizing my teas have been lacking a bit as well.  first off.. i have been using wiggle worm because its what i have access too easily.  a better online source for ewc's could be helpful.  also i am using Holiday unsulfured black-strap molasses(seems like good shit.. tasty at least).  
     
    per 5 gallons of RO waster i add(with a light rumble of bubbles)...
         about 1cup EWC, 
         2-3 Tbsp. molasses.  
         sometimes i add half a cup of buffalo loam composted buffalo manure(new plants in the flower room usually get the brew with the added buffalo compost).  
     
    i brew for 1.5-2 days then apply at full strength.  when i go to re-cycle/amend a batch of used soil i usually do the same thing.  i end up applying approximately a gallon of full strength "tea" to each of my bins(3.33cu. ct. of used soil).  then add additional plain RO water to get the soil im batching wet enough.  
     
    my sit time for my soil is about 2 weeks on average. i know its not ideal...  so i see where you might suspect that my cycling maybe missing something.  for instance... "cook" time? weak teas? too much dolo-lime?  man i have some issues eh?  lol.  
     
    -shodan
     
  10. Are you using RO water for everything?
     
    Is your tap water that bad? Or, are you using RO 'just because'?
     
    Not gonna rant or rave, but RO water (distilled too), is pretty much *dead* water and not all that compatible with organics. It's not even that good for you to drink. I've seen warnings on distilled water that it is not intended for consumption unless you are a steam iron.
     
    Just a thought.
     
    Wet
     
  11. #71 nernerderd, Apr 24, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2014
    Yup RO all the time. Honestly it's mostly because it's city water. Guarantees no chlorine in the water. Also it may be a stretchy myth, but I was under the impression RO was a good way to simulate rain water. Not that i use that as an excuse to use it. Just really because I was unsure what was entirely in my tap water supply. Actually where I'm from I have known that the water quality is quite good(except for the chlorine). I just keep using RO despite because it seems to work fine. Maybe an uneducated decision, but it's what I've done. guess I never heard it being bad for soil life.

    Do you recommend using strait tap water that sat for a day with an airstone instead? I My water from the tap is about 120ppm. The mineral content is pretty good(maybe a bit high in copper-I guess that might be good though eh?). It tastes great to be honest.

    To ultimately be honest I have no real science for my reasoning in using RO water currently. At one point I lived in a bigish city. Between the old pipes plus the shit quality of the water.. it had a smell and a taste that was horrible. Probably like 800+ ppm and thick with heavy metals. Since then I admit I am weary of using city water supplies. But I live far away from that now so maybe RO here isn't necessary? You tell me. I am a busy man. Yet another contemplation I may have overlooked.

    -shodan
     
  12. #72 waktoo, Apr 24, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2014
     
    In post #41, you said that you brewed your teas for three days.  What you describe here is the way it's supposed to be done, except follow the recipe in post #42 (you don't need the manure).  So what were you doing in the past?  A three day brew can literally kill the microbes if they are not given more food stock during that period.
     
    This might help you find some quality EWC online...
    http://forum.grasscity.com/organic-growing/1277064-sourcing-organic-soil-mix-components.html
     
    If that doesn't help, these guys really know their shit, and stock quality amendments...
    http://buildasoil.com/collections/all-visible-products/products/pure-worm-castings.  You may be able to source the EWC directly from Worm Power for cheaper, IDK.
     
    So yeah, I think your teas were weak, and you are definitely NOT cycling your soils for long enough.  4 weeks minimum, I prefer 6.
     
    And another thing.  I would apply a tea to newly planted ladies during veg' ONCE, and would not apply anymore after that.  Plants produce root exudates in the form of proteins and carbohydrates to attract the microbes they need to cycle the particular nutrients they want from the soil.  A very particular microbial balance is established by the plant in this manner.  Adding teas to established microbial root colonies upsets this balance, IMO.
     
     
     
    Damn, wet', you beat me to it!
     
    Unless your water quality is so bad that you can't drink it, ditch the RO and go straight tap.  RO is for hydro growers, who need to be able to know exactly what's in their feed water at all times.  It has no place in the organic garden.
     
  13. The commercial (straight), hydro growers, in Fl anyway, would bump RO water up to 150 PPM before adding other stuff.
     
    If your tap is only 120 PPM and tastes good, you are wasting your time and $$$ with RO. RO is also nothing like rain water other than both of them being wet.
     
    Not a day, use straight tap for a week or 2 and I bet you see a difference. Bubble it if you want something to do, but I stopped that nonsense over 4 years ago and never noticed a difference. I never bubbled it for the outdoor stuff, just right from the hose end. We also have chloramine (~3-4 PPM), but it never seemed to affect the microbes in soil or tea.
     
    Wet
     
  14.  
  15. http://www.natureswayresources.com/infosheets/chloramine.html
     
    Here is a link about chloramine. I noticed on Shodan's soil test that the Na content was rather high. Anyhow, in the link, it says that an  R/O filter will remove chloramine, but will leave high levels of Na behind. I wasn't aware of this as I've always used tap water w/out chloramine.
     
    Just thought I'd throw that out there.
     
  16.  
    Interesting link. The bit about the salt in RO was new to me along with other tidbits, but since I don't use it anyway I don't keep up with it much. The funny part was a conversation LD and I had about adding organic matter to your water to remove it. I asked if the corollary would be adding the water to organic matter (simply watering your plant)? We both agreed that is the most simple solution.
     
    I just wonder what a 'high' chloramine level is. It's in my water, but averages 3 PPM with a max of 4 PPM. The total dissolved solids is ~37 PPM, which says something for mountain lakes. I've also never noticed any issues with any of my plants from the tap water
     
    shodan
     
    Read that link through a couple of times and I think you'll give up on the RO.
     
    Wet
     
  17. I would just like to add that while I don't believe it's necessary to de chlorinate/chloramine prior to watering your plants, I do think it's a very good idea to do so before brewing compost tea.
     
  18. My water only has chlorine in it...but I still think it's worth a few seconds to throw a small handful of compost, soil or EWC into my water and at least let it sit, if not bubble for 24 hrs. I mean, there is no doubt these compounds will kill microbial life...how much it kills is certainly debatable. I'd rather it kill microbial life away from my plants rhizosphere, just to be on the safe side. 
     
    Waktoo- I'm not trying to be an ass, but it's Masanobu. :hide:
     
  19. I agree 420%. Also, when making AEM and things of that nature.
     
    I use aquarium drops, since I used to keep fish and still have some left.
     
    Wet
     
  20.  
    Son of a...  :eek:
     
    I can't believe I've been rolling this long with that misspelling in my sig'!  Especially as I'm rather anal about spelling and grammar...
     
    Correction noted and attended to.  Thanks.  :)
     

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