For some quick Ca, see if you can snag some gypsum, calcitic lime (no mg), or similar. Oyster shell flour would be good, if you can get it locally. Essentially the same as calcitic lime, but perhaps a bit quicker. Not quick enough to justify shipping costs though. The gypsum should be the easiest to find. Usually has SOIL REPAIR or something similar in big letters and ~$15/40lb bag. Mixing it in is best, but a top dress, scratched into the surface will do in a pinch. Kelp meal is full of trace till you can snag some rock dust and mix it in. HTH Wet
So I went and bought some gypsum a bit ago. I was sold on the idea when reading how better of a calcium amendment it was compared to the lime I was using. From the magnesium percentage you can see fairly clearly in my soil report that I have used plenty of lime. I have some azomite left over too. I can use that as my rock dust right? I have plenty of kelp, and all the other things I listed at the start of this thread. So I have some things needed to start with for "repairing" my soil it seems. im taking all your suggestions in consideration. Also I did contact loganlabs and they are running the samples now. I guess they keep samples for six weeks before discarding so that's convenient enough considering. I'll post the standard test report when I get it in a few days. For those calculations I will be using the method as described at the beginning of this thread. Using 5 gallon buckets keeps my numbers in line as long as I divide my gallons by 7.5 to get the cubit feet number. So 3.33 cu.ft. is the number I get when I add 4 5gal buckets of used soil and one 5gal bucket of earthworm castings. See that earlier post to clarify. thanks all. I'll pop back with that report asap. -shodan
azomite can be your rock dust, but dont use it in rock dust proportions. keep it to around 1-2 cups max per cu. ft. http://www.spectrumanalytic.com/support/library/ff/Soil_Aluminum_and_test_interpretation.htm basically clays in your soil can cause al+++ toxicity and should be used with care
So while we are waiting for my standard report to get back to me I was wondering about the weight of my soil you needed to help with the calculations. So since I have 2 samples of different origins in my report(used soil/reamended soil, or sample 1 and 2) what way should I collect this info in order to be as accurate as possible. Do you want the weight of both samples first off? Also how would you like me to acquire the weight, or what standard are you looking for? Should I figure out the weight of a single cubic foot, or a 5 gallon bucket full, or my batch size(which would be 4 buckets(5gal.) of used soil and 1 bucket of worm castings)? Also 7.5 gallons of of soil is approximately 1 cubic foot right? Will that be accurate enough to get this volume needed for calculating? -shodan
Weigh 1 gallon (volume) from both samples. Make sure that they are dry. If you can run your hand through the soil and it kicks up "dust", it is dry enough. If not, spread it out on some kind of surface until it is. I know this is a rather relative way to determine dryness, but make sure it's dry. Something I've been wondering... are both of your batches 3.33 cubic feet EACH, or are they 3.33 c.f. COMBINED? And yes, 7.5 gallons is ~ 1 cubic foot.
i guess im not sure what your asking. to maybe help clarify.. my "batches" are just what im calling it when i go to reamend the used soil with worm castings and amendments. i take the 4 parts used soil and 1 part ewc(or 25 gallons of total soil to amend) and get my "batch" size. so 25 gallons of used soil and added worm castings together gives me 3.33 cu. ft. because 25 gallons divided out is so. then i use that cubic foot number to figure out per cubic foot of dry amendments i am adding. so if that helps, lol. not sure how else to say it. also to maybe help clarify... "sample 1" was just an array of small soil samples strait out of about 8 buckets or so after a flowering cycle that i mixed up a bit in a 5 gallon bucket well. about a quart of that made it to the lab for tests. "sample 2" was directly from one of those "batches" i made up using 4 parts used soil(sample 1 type soil), 1 part worm castings and added dry amendments and fertilizer. and again my "parts" value is 5 gallons, so 25 gallons or 3.33 cu. ft. is that number i am using. i will add that particular "batch" was "cooking" for about 1.5-2 weeks. does this help? -shodan
oh here is the standard test btw. ill get that weight posted tonight a bit later. thanks again. -shodan
OK, just so I'm straight... Sample 1 is used soil that has yet to be amended, and Sample 2 is used soil that was recently amended? Man, it's a good thing you were able to get the standard test done with the soil sample that the lab saved. I'm not sure WHAT the numbers from a saturated paste report are supposed to tell you, but the results are VERY different. Being that the two samples are nearly identical, I would suggest combining them and we'll amend based on the sample that already contains "more". It will make measuring the amendments a lot easier for you. The last batch of soil that I amended was around 64 gallons, and the material I added to bring things up to par barely amounted to a cup. So we're going to need to know what volume of soil makes up the "sample 1" soil batch, and unless you're VERY sure about the volume of the "sample 2" soil batch, the same for it. Accurate volume (and soil weight) measurements are really important when making these calculations for amending soil based on volume, rather than acreage. I'll get started looking at the report. It may be a few/several days before I have some numbers for you. TBO, with this new test, your soil doesn't look as bad as I first thought. It needs calcium obviously, some trace elements, and possibly phosphorous. Which batch of soil were you growing in that started this whole thread, and what do your plants look like now?
Sample 1 - 2lbs 5.8oz for one gallon Sample 2 - 2lbs 15.4oz for one gallon And yes. You are strait on what each sample represents essentially. Sample 2 I knew would be more weight because of the fresh worm castings added to the soil where I took the sample from. Keep in mind also to not take my numbers of batches as my total amount of soil. I have buckets and buckets of "used" soil. There are many "batches" to be made. The two samples I took were to see how my reamendment process was doin or not doing as far a nutrient fluctuations and what not. And I'm going on a bit of faith that each bucket of used soil I have is lacking in a very similar way. I will be mainly working with that "used" soil that's still in the bucket it was used. So if that helps at all for your perspective of the volume of soil i have... i would like to slowly fix it all up. And when I go to fix up my used soil by adding some things i will be using 4 parts "used" soil, 1 part worm castings(or 25 gallons ~ 3.33 cu ft.) because this amount fits nicely in my bins. As far as my plants go I'm noticing a slow progression of the same thing. Here's a pick of a different lady same strain.
OK, so much going on.... First off, I think that your soil test results for the amended batch (sample 2) would have been very different if you had cycled the batch for 2-4 more weeks. And did you hit it with an ACT prior to storage for cycling? When we finally get to actually amending the soil, you DO NOT need to add more EWC. Your CEC is very high (the average for decent farm soil is around 10), and the organic matter content is through the roof (while mixed soils tend to be a bit high, 6-10% is a good average, mine mixed soils test at around 30%). What you need is minerals, in their raw form. No pic' of the plant, and you didn't answer what soil the first plant in the original post was planted in. Non-amended re-used soil, I would presume? I realize that your bin size is driving the amount of soil that you want to amend. Do you have room to store several bins of the same size (2-4)? I think that you should consider working with the buckets of "used" soil only. And then of course we will still need to determine how much soil you want to amend. The more the better, as measuring the amendments (and making the calculations) that you're going to need becomes easier with higher soil volumes. Like I said before, when I amended 64 gallons of soil, the material needed resulted in about a cup of "stuff". I needed to use my small digital scale in order to weigh out some of the amendments in "grain" units. One ounce equals 437.5 grains. This is especially important for measuring the proper weight of the trace elements that you are going to need.
i have several bins(4). i also am looking for a kiddy pool or two to mix in. might be easier to work with and i just need more soil mixing space in general. i posted that pic also. that soil was some reamended used soil btw.
If you have the floor space to work with, even temporary (moving furniture or whatever), a heavy duty tarp and the back of a stiff toothed rake can work wonders for mixing soil. I mix my 64 gallon batches on a 9'x12' tarp, then fold it up when I'm done. Although it's about time to replace it, I've gotten three years of use out of it. No worries about storing kiddy pools.
Great idea. Honestly that almost seems more practical. I didn't consider moving it and storage might be an issue. I'll look into a tarp then. Thanks.
I'm working on your calculations right now. I should have things figured out for you by tonight or tomorrow.
Well, here we go... The soil report says that you're low in calcium, phosphorous, boron, manganese, zinc, and copper. The soil also needs a small amount of potassium, but it was next to impossible to add a source of K without messing up the levels of the other nutrients, so I left it out. You'll get it out of your organic matter as it breads down, anyway. I took the liberty of figuring batch sizes based on the 3.33 ft<sup>3</sup> storage containers that you already own. If you make a 50 gallon batch (two storage containers worth), it will be easy to measure the amendments with any digital scale that measures grams and grains. Here's what amendments you'll need to supply the nutrients to balance the soil minerology... Oyster shell meal (for calcium)- 132 grams (4.7 oz.) Fish BONE meal (for phosphorous)- 81 grams (2.9 oz.) Borax (for boron)- 17 grains Manganese oxide (for manganese)- 3.4 grams Zinc oxide (for zinc)- 10.4 grains Copper oxide (for copper)- 5 grains A note on the oxides... Your initial reaction to these things might be, "Those sound like chemical fertilizers". In the strictest definition of the word(s), I guess they are, seeing as how they are fabricated by man. As are some of the sulfate forms that are used to supply the trace elements. We couldn't use the sulfate forms (which are easier to source) because the sulfur levels in your soils are already too high. But these materials ARE approved for use in organic cultivation by the National Organic Program, because they are purified. I liken the "philosophy" of using material like this to the use of amendments like Pro-tekt, which is man made, and comes in a plastic bottle. Silica products are approved for use by the NOP, and while they are man made, their high solubility, increased availability, and the benefits provided FAR outweigh the fact that the product does not occur "naturally". And amending this way is not something that has to be done on a regular basis. We are maximizing the soils ability to store and hold nutrients based on it's CEC, which is very high. I expect you'll be able to "no-till" for several years before having to amend the soil again. I can't say for sure, because my own experiments have only just started... The oyster shell and fish bone MIGHT be found at your local hydro store, if they have a decent organic section. Chances are they don't. You'll fine the oyster shell easy enough. Fish bone is a bit more difficult. I've ordered from this place several times. Shipping is expensive (isn't it always?), but flat rate so usually the cheapest, and the product is top notch... http://www.soilminerals.com/Minerals_and_Fertilizers.htm Borax can be found at your local grocery store, in the laundry detergent section. Look for "20 Mule Team". Fuck, the 'ol ladies hasslin' me. I'll be back later with where to find the oxides. I think I had to use several sources...
Alright, to continue... 1# packages of oxides can be obtained from Amazon... http://www.amazon.com/1LB-Manganese-Oxide-Manganous/dp/B0094J0D82/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1396727399&sr=8-1&keywords=manganese+oxide http://www.amazon.com/Zinc-Oxide-Powder-Quality-Resealable/dp/B003IGOL8U/ref=sr_1_1?s=hpc&ie=UTF8&qid=1396727555&sr=1-1&keywords=zinc+oxide http://www.amazon.com/Black-Copper-Oxide-Cupric-Pound/dp/B004WT3AUC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1396727581&sr=8-1&keywords=cuprous+oxide These are the forms that you need. With the very small amounts of these materials that you actually need to do one 50 gallon batch of soil, the expenditure may seem extreme. But you'll have plenty of material to amend many, many more batches of soil. Perhaps you can contact the ACTUAL source selling the product to see if you can buy in smaller amounts? You still might eat it on shipping... I'll let you soak all this in and wait for questions.
sorry it took me so long to reply from your last post. its been a crazy past few days to say the least. well i went ahead and ordered all those ingredients already. it should be here within a week id imagine. i still need to find the borax, but that i think will be easy. i have a few questions on how i am applying these amendments. first off.. currently i only have a triple beam scale that goes to the .1g. only grams, so can i just convert grains into grams? i could just pick up a digi scale if you think that will work better. I think im realizing as im typing that my triple beam wont be accurate enough. not enough decimal points. also i am wondering how the direct application of these ingredients work and how long it takes to "cook" or what kind of sit time am i expecting? ..and because there is such a small volume of these ingredients in total... how do you recommend accurately splitting the combined amount with the two 25 gallon bins i have. for instance should i mix it all and split the weight for the two bins. Which leads me to another question. that 3.33 cu ft. usually contains fresh worm casting being 1/5 of that batch size. since you were mentioning i have a vast enough amount of organic matter necessary already... were you trying to tell me to not add any worm casting to my mix when i go to do this amendment? so this batch we are making for your calculated amounts is just for 50 gallons of strait "used" soil(just to be clear)? also are you saying i shouldn't add castings at all anymore when i re-purpose the soil after a flower cycle because of my organic matter ratio being overkill? also will this organic matter ratio be a problem? i have been in a routine on how i do my "re-cycle" process for a while now. you might have realized i get stuck on certain topics because of these very routines. i am always adding the same amount of castings and amendments every time i go through a flower cycle with the soil. were you even suggesting with the re-amendment you are so graciously laying out for me to do... that i shouldn't have to amend at all for years to come after this? any suggestions on correcting my flawed methods and what i should continue or not continue to do(which i was understanding that how i was doing things would likely be sustainable for quite a bit longer without issue)? not trying to get a magic number, or the one and only way to do things or anything. i just im trying to figure out these schools of thought and how to apply them to my sustainable gardening plan. sorry im like opening a can of freakin worms sometimes. which brings me to yet another question... this "no-till" phrase ive heard here and there, but i never was sure exactly what it means? does it literally mean no tilling, turning, or breaking up the soil at all. like ripping out a plant that has just "finished" and putting a small clone in the hole it came out of, to grow right into? im just curious, and im sorry if these seem like noob questions. im just getting started i feel in understanding the concepts of how to make my soil working methods sustainable. i could use more technical data for the science part of agronomy. thanks for all your time thus far, and for all the time you have for me when i go to ask more questions, lol. really i appreciate it. -shodan p.s. are you a professional agronomist? where did you get all your awesome info, and skill? just curious.
[/QUOTE] Weird, I don't know what I just did. I was in the box, now I'm out... Nope, I'm not a professional agronomist. Just a fella' with a passion for learning sustainable methods for producing nutrient rich foods and med's. 'Cause the crap that's offered at your normal grocery store is poison. I've been trying to worm my way into the local organic food production scene here for about a year now. Got involved with the new local community garden last year, made some connections, and this season I'll be working a greenhouse (with a 1300 ft<sup>2</sup> outside garden space), and a private residence that has WAY more square footage. Like acres (3+, and irrigated). The later is really cool because the owner (moved in last year) is an organic gardener, and has been doing this for a lot longer than I have. And he's got MAJOR plans for the property. Someone to learn from, someone to share with (he's unfamiliar with soil mineral balancing). I'll actually be amending the beds in the community garden this weekend. Man, if you think your soil's bad... Awesome info comes from this very forum. Lots of knowledge and experience to be had here. LD, a VERY knowledgeable cat around these parts (no longer, I'm afraid) was once asked how he knows all the stuff he knows. I'll never forget his reply. "Book learnin'". I read. A lot. Skill comes with practice (trial and error?) and experience.
I forgot a few things... I hope you are familiar with the production and use of ACT's. You need to brew up a tea to use to moisten the soil after you've amended it. And then cycle for 4 weeks, minimum. The longer, the better. I like to dump the cycling soil out and remix at least once to incorporate more oxygen into the soil. If it's getting dry, remoisten with plain water. And a note about amending with zinc and copper... Your soil was very low in both of these elements. Below the minimum required amounts for healthy soils, if fact. Soluble copper is detrimental to soil microbiology if applied at too high a concentration. I've taken this into account when figuring your numbers. What this means is that to bring the copper levels (and zinc, because they are synergistic minerals that work together for optimum uptake by plants) into balance with all the rest of the nutrient ions you'll have to add them in "stages". Copper is what's limiting the process, but copper levels are determined by zinc. When you initially reamend, add what I've already prescribed, but you'll need to do it again after your first grow in the amended soil. A few times, in fact. I'll get back with you on that with some specifics, after I look at the soil report again.