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New Member: Questions About Medicinal Coconut Paste Some Confusion... Help?

Discussion in 'Weed Edibles' started by Veil, Feb 8, 2014.

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  1. #1 Veil, Feb 8, 2014
    I would like to say hello to everyone, I am a new member here, and have some questions for the more experienced members. Please bear with me as I try to clearly articulate what I am wanting to know. To those that take the time to answer, MANY thanks, truly.

    I have been reading for months (literally), all of the methods to make medical based cannabis pastes and oils for cancer treatment. I am the most interested in making the paste with coconut oil. Based upon coconut oils fat soluble content, it is literally the perfect match in my opinion, and one that is HIGHLY effective at penetrating the blood/brain barrier as a result of its makeup.

    So after months of reading the methods behind making the cannabis paste, I still find myself slightly confused...

    Question 1: Would it not be better to grind the cannabis into a powder, literal powder so that you almost lose nothing in the paste. I have seen videos and instructions about just breaking it apart and later removing the parts via straining. This seems strange to me. You can grind cannabis to a literal powder that would almost dissolve completely after a few hours in a heated medium?

    Question 2: Does grinding hurt the medicinal value of the THC or CBD? I can not find any information where it states that it does?

    Question 3: Is there really a medicinal value to THC for cancer treatments? Meaning... would you better suited using a split THC/CBD level of cannabis (Example: Harlequin: 11.6% CBD and 8.4% THC) as versus saying: Charlotte's Wed with 15% CBD and .35% THC?

    Question 4: The way that seems the most prevalent for preparation is: 1 ounce of cannabis with 1 cup of coconut oil with 1 cup of water in a mason jar. The mason jar is place into a low boil pot for 10 hours. The mason jar should be in 5 inches of water, and should stay below 180 degrees Fahrenheit. Does this sound right?

    Question 5: The paste when completed... how do you store it? How long can you store it? Will it keep in a refrigerator for 3 months? 6 months?

    Question 6: Dosage amount? I know you can simply eat the paste directly. This is for medicinal application, taste is not really a big deal. What is the dosage amount used for cancer? Does it depend on the cannabis to coconut oil ratio? Is there a standard ratio to mix that most everyone uses?

    Question 7: Will the coconut paste if prepared the way I stated above relieve pain? Will it have the normal "high" feeling to it etc? Can you lower the dose to not get high without effecting the cancer fighting attributes of it?

    Thanks to everyone, seriously, that takes the time to answer this. It means a lot, and will help clear up a lot of confusion. It's not that the information is not out there, its that it is inconsistent, there is no standard. When I step back and look at the industry I have to admit that once you have your strain of cannabis selected (and that is not that hard), then it should simply be a ratio of cannabis to coconut oil and water (water to separate the coconut paste later after freezing it).

    Right?
     
  2. #2 Storm Crow, Feb 9, 2014
    First off, hon, the person you really need to chat with is BadKittySmiles!
     
    1. Nope, no matter how fine the powder is, it won't totally dissolve in your oil. Leaves simply do not dissolve!
     
    2. Nope! Does grinding a cake to crumbs make it any less sweet? Same deal, hon!
     
    3. MOST cancers do not like THC - but there are a few exceptions. When it comes the ID-1 cancers ("triple negative" breast cancer as an example), they respond best to cannabidiol (CBD).  CBD also stops the growth of many tumor's "feeder" blood vessels. So it depends on the type of cancer, which works the best. (Judging from your questions, it sounds like we may need to have a long private talk about what's going on in your life, hon)
     
    Cannabinoids: Potential Anticancer Agents      (full - 2003)
    http://americanmarijuana.org/Guzman-Cancer.pdf
     
    Pot compound seen as tool against cancer           (news – 2012)
    http://www.sfgate.com/health/article/Pot-compound-seen-as-tool-against-cancer-3875562.php#page-1
     
    Cannabidiol inhibits angiogenesis by multiple mechanisms.
     (abst – 2012)          http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22624859
     
    The rest of your questions, "BadKittySmiles" will be able to answer far better than I can! She is our local Queen of cannabis cuisine! I just play around with medical studies and give common sense advice.
     
     
    Granny
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. #3 Veil, Feb 9, 2014
    Thank you very much! I will try to find this "BadKittySmiles", hopefully she can spare a moment or two for questions.
     
  4. #4 Galaxy420, Feb 9, 2014
    Hi, just wanted to add that you are extracting the oils and resins from the cannabis plant matter when soaking in coconut oil. the oils and resins are being pulled from the fiber of the plant matter and getting infused into the coco oil. once extracted the plant matter is just that, plant matter without its oils and lipids. so in essence, you are concentrating the oils while discarding the fibrous matter
     
  5. #5 Veil, Feb 9, 2014
    Thank you Galaxy420.
     
  6. #6 Veil, Feb 9, 2014
    Now if I can just find a "foolproof" ratio of coconut oil to water to cannabis then it should be easy to do.
     
    I am hoping that BadKittySmiles will be able to (not to discredit any complexity) be able to say something like:
     
    1 ounce of cannabis + ? cups of coconut oil + ? cups of water in a large mason jar (pint, quart, etc) in a pan of water 4,5 or 6 inches deep at 180 or 190 or 200 degrees for 3,5,7,or 10 hours etc.
     
    This is essentially what I am trying to get to, the ratio, cook time, and temps.
     
  7. #7 Veil, Feb 9, 2014
    The biggest issue I see in this industry as per medicinal applications is a true uniformed ratio of how to make paste or oil. You see a wide array of articles, pictures and videos... and you never know who's method actually works without destroying most of the important chemicals and trace elements you need for cancer treatment.
     
    Let's face it... no one wants to waste material, especially as expensive as it is for most people. A lot of people can really use an easy to follow video recipe on how to do this from a trusted source like BadKittySmiles. I searched and found a video from here, but it was several methods in one and I found myself confused.
     
    Is there a simple mason jar or crock pot recipe that actually works without burning off the important stuff?
     
  8. #8 Galaxy420, Feb 9, 2014
    at this point correct dosage is of utmost importance. that goes all the way down to every molecule for each strain and how the strain effects the outcome. it is such a large science where everything comes together. we are paving the way for man and medicine to be as one, ha ha.
     
    this is not a direct answer but I'm thinking along the lines of dehydrated food. when dehydrating foods if you keep the temp below 128 degrees it does not destroy the raw food enzymes but still works at dehydrating. the same idea for cannabis when extracting it, don't go above a certain temp and save the sensitive compounds for later use.
     
  9. #9 Nate489, Feb 9, 2014
    Alcohol extraction is your best bet. I use 190 proof ethanol to make mine. Look for Psychedelicsam's tincture/green dragon thread.

    I make lotions a lot with coconut oil I've infused with my dragon as well as capsules.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. #10 Honokiol, Feb 10, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 10, 2014
     
    There is another very good answer in Hash and kif instead.  Epically kif would be easy to add to cocoanut oil in a measured dose manner that would return after decarboxylation a more complete terpene profile than most home extraction methods like RSO and the alcohol extractions.  Way less guessing about how much medicine is going into the treatment than straight from the plant and less loss of medicine than solvent extraction.  While I think the equation runs something like 3 gm hash = 2 gm hash oil I could be wrong with that math. I'd welcome someone smarter than I am to fill us both in if they have a better answer.  If you don't want the fiber from the cellulose it can be filtered with a gold coffee filter but I wouldn't bother.  Weigh your coffee filter before and after filtering your medicine and you will know in hash oil dose terms how much medicine you have and what the concentration is per dose in general terms.  Remember to wash the oil out of the filter with some alcohol, yes you may drink it if you use booze, and let the whole mess dry before weighing.
     
    If I was tracking my dose and reporting my progress I think I would just say this much hash, kif is just hash that hasn't been pressed into a brick, in that much oil and be done with it.
     
    P.S.
    I'm having a I could have had a V-8 moment right now.  I have the hash to make a better tasting asthma medicine this AM and used the hash oil instead.  I hate the taste of hash oil when I can have hash.
     
  11. #11 Nate489, Feb 10, 2014
    The cost alone would kill me to use hash or kief. I don't see how kief would be a better terpene source than whole bud though, especially in an alcohol extraction.
     
  12. #12 Veil, Feb 10, 2014
    Nate, that is where I am confused a bit also. As I can't fathom how a prolonged 10 hour soak at a 180 to 200 degree temperature in coconut oil would not literally pull almost everything out of the material... whether it be fresh cut, dried, or other? Simply not understanding how that would not be a fantastic way of extracting everything.
     
  13. #13 Honest American, Feb 10, 2014
     
    Hi Veil, I've been wanting to make some of this, from what I understand this salve would work better with an indica? I saved this link on how to make some, you can look at it. Haven't made it but would like to- I haven't heard of using water in it, just coconut oil and beeswax? Hope this helps you some..
     
    http://patients4medicalmarijuana.wordpress.com/2010/04/30/topical-cannabis-healing-salve/
     
  14. #14 Honokiol, Feb 11, 2014
     
    I'm seeing hash at $10/gm here. 
     
    The patient wants to skip the alcohol or other solvent based extraction for reasons that are not listed in the original post and is treating cancer. Using hash allows higher concentration in the finished coconut oil product than any other method except hash oil which the patient does not appear to want to make.
     
    Taking an unaltered part of the whole plant the trichomes where all the terpenes and cannabinoids are secreted directly to the oil does what he wants to do with leaf but allows him to produce the greater concentrations used in cancer treatment than can be conveniently done using leaf or bud in a water/oil bath.  It is the only practical way to get to a dose with a +/- known potency without using hash oil aka RSO.  Boiling any solvent off that is not Butane, CO2 or one of the other cryogenic gases used for extraction boils off terpenes with the solvent as does decarboxylation.  This way the patient only looses those terpenes that would be lost to decarboxylation any way and none of the rest that would follow the solvent as it is boiled away.  To know which terpenes are being lost in any solvent extraction compare solvent boiling temperature to one of the terpen boiling temperature charts.  Say good bye to any thing that boils at a lower temperature than the solvent used.
     
    Kif is made by dry sifting the oil glands, aka the trichomes away from the leaf and hash is made by compressing the kif into a hard packed cake.
     
  15. #15 Veil, Feb 11, 2014
    Hey everyone, thank you for discussing this, it really is that important to figure out.
     
    I originally was following this advice on this site: http://www.newcure.org/oil-level/how-we-make-the-oil
     
    QUOTE: "Rick Simpson's Alcohol extraction amazingly cured a few people but sadly was a poor method.
    Rick was on the right track by using Cannabis for many cures but he pretty much destroyed the healing properties by using super strong alcohol and boiling it in a deep fryer. Think of over cooking your carrots which destroys the vitamins and nutrients.This method is actually really flammable and completely unnecessary. New Cure uses Vegetable Glycerin at a low temperature for a much longer time which does not damage the Cannabinoids." END QUOTE.
     
    It makes sense to me, a slow cook to release all the materials. I just watch people making RSO, and see it literally just boiling away everything that is beneficial. Sure it works, but how much is lost say vs coconut oil method?
     
  16. #16 Honokiol, Feb 11, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2014
     
    Keep us posted on your progress, thanks for the link.  I book marked it.
     
  17. #17 00Hassel, Feb 11, 2014
    The comment above was interesting, regarding vegetable glycerin. I actually came to post about that - extraction methods.

    In herbal supplements, where the compounds and constituents must be preserved, alcohol based extraction is frowned on compared to natural vegetable glycerin extraction. Alcohol destroys enzymes and nutrients. If you are intending to make medicine of any herb in the botanical kingdom, alcohol and extreme heat are not your friends.

    I've seen the ways RSO helps people so i don't think i could imply that all the constituents are destroyed in the process. It is still healing people. Plus when we smoke it, even after the heat of combustion there is still huge benefit. Obviously the THC registers because we feel high.

    I would be interested to see research comparing low heat, alcohol free extractions vs RSO type. There's 421 compounds and constituents in cannabis, THC and CBD are only two. In terms of healing medicine, there is likely a great deal of use in those other items. New research on the endocannabinoid system is incredible but also has more depth to come.

    Also, consider people have successfully used juicing of raw cannabis to treat a myriad of conditions. There are most definitely phytonutrients and other items in there that are definitely heat sensitive to varying degrees.

    Best of luck, we still have much to learn!
     
  18. #18 Veil, Feb 11, 2014
     
    00Hassel, thanks for your input. I am leaning towards the Vegetable Glycerin / Coconut oil extraction method as a test. I may just "go for it", and wing it to see how it goes.
     
    Seeing as how I can not get a ratio from anywhere on the web (that has any consistency as a "consensus"), I am forced to just make up a ratio. So be it.
     
    1 ounce of cannabis, 1 cup of coconut oil, 1/2 cup of water is what i guess i will try. Shame if I waste it, but... what can you do right. And then, after I attempt this, I do not even know the dosage lol.
     
  19. #19 00Hassel, Feb 11, 2014
    Practice makes perfect!

    I found this on their website:
    " After opening stir it really good! It's like peanut butter in thickness. Start out with 1/16 of a teaspoon 3 times a day and if you feel an uncomfortable buzz (if you are not using the R4 strain there is a slight high) then cut that down to where you feel comfortable.

    Try to consume in 1 month the 2.5 ounce container we give you. We only have 1 size and the content is:

    1/2 ounce of bud and 2 ounces of Vegetable Glycerin or Coconut oil. One good thing is we only use the buds (higher in CBD) ."

    It seems dosing info can be deduced from above info; 2.5 oz of well mixed finished product is a month supply. But i believe that's regarding their "paste" which has ground buds mixed in.

    They also make multiple references to using one ounce of matter so it seems like you're on the right track there.

    Be careful, but i imagine you'll have to experiment with the recipes. I'm a little surprised there isn't more recipe info available but at least you'll have fun "taste testing" !
     
  20. #20 00Hassel, Feb 11, 2014
    And please report back your results!
     
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