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Science teacher questions students faith. Interesting result


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#1
jduce2412

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Professor : You are a Christian, aren’t you, son ?

Student : Yes, sir.

Professor: So, you believe in GOD ?

Student : Absolutely, sir.

Professor : Is GOD good ?

Student : Sure.

Professor: Is GOD all powerful ?

Student : Yes.

Professor: My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to GOD to heal him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But GOD didn’t. How is this GOD good then? Hmm?

(Student was silent.)

Professor: You can’t answer, can you ? Let’s start again, young fella. Is GOD good?

Student : Yes.

Professor: Is satan good ?

Student : No.

Professor: Where does satan come from ?

Student : From … GOD …

Professor: That’s right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?

Student : Yes.

Professor: Evil is everywhere, isn’t it ? And GOD did make everything. Correct?

Student : Yes.

Professor: So who created evil ?

(Student did not answer.)

Professor: Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things exist in the world, don’t they?

Student : Yes, sir.

Professor: So, who created them ?

(Student had no answer.)

Professor: Science says you have 5 Senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Tell me, son, have you ever seen GOD?

Student : No, sir.

Professor: Tell us if you have ever heard your GOD?

Student : No , sir.

Professor: Have you ever felt your GOD, tasted your GOD, smelt your GOD? Have you ever had any sensory perception of GOD for that matter?

Student : No, sir. I’m afraid I haven’t.

Professor: Yet you still believe in Him?

Student : Yes.

Professor : According to Empirical, Testable, Demonstrable Protocol, Science says your GOD doesn’t exist. What do you say to that, son?

Student : Nothing. I only have my faith.

Professor: Yes, faith. And that is the problem Science has.

Student : Professor, is there such a thing as heat?

Professor: Yes.

Student : And is there such a thing as cold?

Professor: Yes.

Student : No, sir. There isn’t.

(The lecture theater became very quiet with this turn of events.)

Student : Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don’t have anything called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we can’t go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.

(There was pin-drop silence in the lecture theater.)

Student : What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?

Professor: Yes. What is night if there isn’t darkness?

Student : You’re wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light. But if you have no light constantly, you have nothing and its called darkness, isn’t it? In reality, darkness isn’t. If it is, well you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn’t you?

Professor: So what is the point you are making, young man ?

Student : Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.

Professor: Flawed ? Can you explain how?

Student : Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is life and then there is death, a good GOD and a bad GOD. You are viewing the concept of GOD as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, Science can’t even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing.

Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it. Now tell me, Professor, do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?

Professor: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of course, I do.

Student : Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?

(The Professor shook his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the argument was going.)

Student : Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor. Are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher?

(The class was in uproar.)

Student : Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor’s brain?

(The class broke out into laughter. )

Student : Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor’s brain, felt it, touched or smelt it? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established Rules of Empirical, Stable, Demonstrable Protocol, Science says that you have no brain, sir. With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?

(The room was silent. The Professor stared at the student, his face unfathomable.)

Professor: I guess you’ll have to take them on faith, son.

Student : That is it sir … Exactly ! The link between man & GOD is FAITH. That is all that keeps things alive and moving.

SIDE NOTE: THIS CONVERSATION IS COMMONLY MIS-LINKED WITH EINSTEIN. HE WAS NOT THE STUDENT.

#2
Firestorm60

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Yeah, that's an old religious e-mail that used to circulate. I remember reading that one about ten years ago. It's corny.

#3
jduce2412

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Yeah, that's an old religious e-mail that used to circulate. I remember reading that one about ten years ago. It's corny.


Sometimes it is not necessarily about the validity or integrity of a piece, but more so about the message. Perhaps this could be applied to the Bible, or any religious book for that matter. The message of this piece, and what I had hoped was more the topic of discussion rather than the "corny"ness of the text, is that often times people use faith to explain those "absences" in their life. There are things we will never possibly be able to understand. Einstein himself said this in his memoir "The World As I See It".

and I quote

"The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. He who knows it not and can no longer wonder, no longer feel amazement, is as good as dead, a snuffed-out candle. It was the experience of mystery-even if mixed with fear-that engendered religion. A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which are only accessible to our reason in their most elementary forms - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitue the truly religious attitude"

-Einstein

#4
Firestorm60

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Sometimes it is not necessarily about the validity or integrity of a piece, but more so about the message. Perhaps this could be applied to the Bible, or any religious book for that matter. The message of this piece, and what I had hoped was more the topic of discussion rather than the "corny"ness of the text, is that often times people use faith to explain those "absences" in their life. There are things we will never possibly be able to understand. Einstein himself said this in his memoir "The World As I See It".

and I quote

"The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. He who knows it not and can no longer wonder, no longer feel amazement, is as good as dead, a snuffed-out candle. It was the experience of mystery-even if mixed with fear-that engendered religion. A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which are only accessible to our reason in their most elementary forms - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitue the truly religious attitude"

-Einstein


Are you saying that since there are things we don't currently understand about the universe, we should just leave it a mystery for now instead of saying "God did it" and claiming faith has all the answers?

#5
DDV

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#6
jduce2412

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Are you saying that since there are things we don't currently understand about the universe, we should just leave it a mystery for now instead of saying "God did it" and claiming faith has all the answers?


No. I'm saying what Einstein said.

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science.
Mystery drives science much in the same way that it drives faith. People naturally seek explanations for things. Metaphysics, if i'm not mistaken, is devoted this sort of subject. "Why are we here" (not a good example IMO but suitable for the time being) and things like that. People are driven by mystery to learn about the unknown(Science here), much in the same way people are driven by faith to help explain things that are so far beyond their comprehension, things so unfathomable that they defy explanation.

Hopefully that clarifies more.

#7
Firestorm60

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The part where the science teacher says, "Science says God does not exist," is wrong.

Science is 100% silent on God. No science textbook says "God does not exist" or "God does exist."

but, this is not surprising considering it was obviously written by someone trying to make science look bad and gain converts to their religion. If they said the truth that science is silent on God, it wouldn't sound nearly as enticing.

It sounds more like paranoia: "Look at those mean ol' scientists! They say science says there is no God! They are trying to bring down your faith! We must stop 'em!" :laughing:

#8
Firestorm60

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No. I'm saying what Einstein said.

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science.
Mystery drives science much in the same way that it drives faith. People naturally seek explanations for things. Metaphysics, if i'm not mistaken, is devoted this sort of subject. "Why are we here" (not a good example IMO but suitable for the time being) and things like that. People are driven by mystery to learn about the unknown(Science here), much in the same way people are driven by faith to help explain things that are so far beyond their comprehension, things so unfathomable that they defy explanation.

Hopefully that clarifies more.


I still don't really know what you are trying to say. I agree with you that some things are a mystery. But that's all they are for the time being.

Besides, this story is written as if the student is a Christian because they speak of God and Satan. However, Einstein was not a Christian. He believed in a vague creator type of God. He didn't believe in a God who concerned himself with humans with rewards/punishments in the afterlife.

But, either way I don't see why it matters what Einstein said. Everyone has their own thoughts. I do like this quote by Einstein though:

"if people are only good because they fear punishment and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." - Einstein

Edited by Firestorm60, 20 March 2013 - 09:24 PM.


#9
jduce2412

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I still don't really know what you are trying to say. I agree with you that some things are a mystery. But that's all they are for the time being.

Besides, this story is written as if the student is a Christian because they speak of God and Satan. However, Einstein was not a Christian. He believed in a vague creator type of God. He didn't believe in a God who concerned himself with humans with rewards/punishments in the afterlife.

But, either way I don't see why it matters what Einstein said. Everyone has their own thoughts.


You asked if the simple answer to things we can't comprehend to summarize was "God did it"...

I responded with an explanation of why people turn to faith to explain things beyond their comprehension, as supported by Albert Einstein (The engendering of religion through mystery). That is how Einstein came into it. I feel like you are thinking I am some devout Christian or something. I merely offered this dialogue (which I personally believe to be severely altered from what probably actually took place) as a topic of conversation to be discussed...I guess I wasn't really expecting it to be a rally call for those who have faith, more so I was hoping for it to be a topic of discussion of why faith permeates society as much as it does, and the reasoning behind that. This isn't meant to be a thread of science vs. faith, more a comparison of how they are similar.


EDIT: one last bit: mysteries being only that for the time being, I disagree with. I think some things will forever be a mystery, beyond comprehensibility. Maybe we would eventually be able to comprehend such things but, at this rate, we won't have a planet to comprehend them on.

Edited by jduce2412, 20 March 2013 - 09:42 PM.


#10
Firestorm60

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You asked if the simple answer to things we can't comprehend to summarize was "God did it"...

I responded with an explanation of why people turn to faith to explain things beyond their comprehension, as supported by Albert Einstein (The engendering of religion through mystery). That is how Einstein came into it.


Yeah, I know why people turn to faith. That's how it started with gods being invented for thunder and lightning.

I feel like you are thinking I am some devout Christian or something.


No, I'm not thinking you are a Christian.

I merely offered this dialogue (which I personally believe to be severely altered from what probably actually took place)


I doubt this actually happened somewhere. it's a story made up by some kind of Christian trying to make scientists look like mean morons. The way the author portrayed the science teacher certainly doesn't sound like any science teacher I ever had throughout my school days. If science teachers acted the way the guy in the story does, they'd be fired pretty quickly.

Calling out a student's faith in front of the whole class like that is not something any of my science teachers ever did.

as a topic of conversation to be discussed...I guess I wasn't really expecting it to be a rally call for those who have faith, more so I was hoping for it to be a topic of discussion of why faith permeates society as much as it does, and the reasoning behind that. This isn't meant to be a thread of science vs. faith, more a comparison of how they are similar.


I don't think it's about "science vs faith." Many discoveries in science were made by theists. I realize a lot of scientists are atheist or non-religious today, but that doesn't mean science and faith are incompatible. It just means some of them don't see any use to bring "god" into it. It doesn't mean God is not real, just that they see no reason to even consider the option.

You can find plenty of scientists who are Christian who can explain evolution better than some atheists. it all comes down to what you actually study.

#11
Mister Dank PhD

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Good argument, I don't like when people try and put people on blast like that. I like the rebuttle.
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#12
jduce2412

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wait so what is your argument, you seem to agree with me. Is your argument that the dialogue posted in the original post is most likely false, if so I have already acknowledged that. I was merely using it as a vessel for a more in depth discussion, which has in a sense been achieved, but it is more just a back and forth between the two of us..

I guess my purpose was more to discuss the mystery, and how that causes certain people to take certain paths...whether they be scientific, faith based, or colluded...I have no problem with anything you've said, more so I feel that I am not conveying myself clearly enough...

Edited by jduce2412, 20 March 2013 - 09:59 PM.


#13
Firestorm60

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wait so what is your argument, you seem to agree with me.


I don't have an argument. I am just saying that for a "science professor," the professor sounds like an idiot.

Is your argument that the dialogue posted in the original post is most likely false, if so I have already acknowledged that.


Yeah, it was made up by a Christian many years ago trying to put down science. Probably a fundamentalist. They are the ones who go against science every chance they get because they believe the world is 6,000 years old. Since science claims the world is 4.5 billion years old, they have a big problem and claim science is calling God a liar. This is why they attack old earth and evolution: because they have a vested interest in their beliefs. For them, their whole faith comes crashing down if the Genesis account of creation is not a literal 7 day event that happened 6,000 years ago.

Other Christians have no problem accepting science and their faith. For fundamentalists it's either "Bible or science". Most other Christians realize it can be both. Even the vatican has accepted evolution and said genesis is not literal. Even Jews don't believe Genesis is a literal account of creation. It's only those crazy fundamentalists who say it's 100% literal and try to tell people, "if you accept evolution, you're calling God a liar!!!"

I was merely using it as a vessel for a more in depth discussion, which has in a sense has been achieved, but it is more just a back and forth between the two of us..

I guess my purpose was more to discuss the mystery, and how that causes certain people to take certain paths...whether they be scientific, faith based, or colluded...I have no problem with anything you've said, more so I feel that I am not conveying myself clearly enough...


Well, like i already said: I understand things are a mystery. Yet, I don't subscribe to any type of religion or God belief. Maybe we'll find out the answers in my lifetime, maybe we won't. No big deal.

#14
Firestorm60

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Good argument, I don't like when people try and put people on blast like that. I like the rebuttle.


It's not exactly a great argument if the same reasoning can be applied to Scientology.

Imagine a scientologist says to you, "Do you believe in my religion?" and I say, "No" and the scientologist says, "Why not? You believe you have a brain, right? So, why not believe in scientology if you believe you have a brain?"

It's not very compelling. In fact, it stinks. :P

#15
yrvd86

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Professor : You are a Christian, aren’t you, son ?

Student : Yes, sir.

Professor: So, you believe in GOD ?

Student : Absolutely, sir.

Professor : Is GOD good ?

Student : Sure.

Professor: Is GOD all powerful ?

Student : Yes.

Professor: My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to GOD to heal him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But GOD didn’t. How is this GOD good then? Hmm?

(Student was silent.)

Professor: You can’t answer, can you ? Let’s start again, young fella. Is GOD good?

Student : Yes.

Professor: Is satan good ?

Student : No.

Professor: Where does satan come from ?

Student : From … GOD …

Professor: That’s right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?

Student : Yes.

Professor: Evil is everywhere, isn’t it ? And GOD did make everything. Correct?

Student : Yes.

Professor: So who created evil ?

(Student did not answer.)

Professor: Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things exist in the world, don’t they?

Student : Yes, sir.

Professor: So, who created them ?

(Student had no answer.)

Professor: Science says you have 5 Senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Tell me, son, have you ever seen GOD?

Student : No, sir.

Professor: Tell us if you have ever heard your GOD?

Student : No , sir.

Professor: Have you ever felt your GOD, tasted your GOD, smelt your GOD? Have you ever had any sensory perception of GOD for that matter?

Student : No, sir. I’m afraid I haven’t.

Professor: Yet you still believe in Him?

Student : Yes.

Professor : According to Empirical, Testable, Demonstrable Protocol, Science says your GOD doesn’t exist. What do you say to that, son?

Student : Nothing. I only have my faith.

Professor: Yes, faith. And that is the problem Science has.

Student : Professor, is there such a thing as heat?

Professor: Yes.

Student : And is there such a thing as cold?

Professor: Yes.

Student : No, sir. There isn’t.

(The lecture theater became very quiet with this turn of events.)

Student : Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don’t have anything called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we can’t go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.

(There was pin-drop silence in the lecture theater.)

Student : What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?

Professor: Yes. What is night if there isn’t darkness?

Student : You’re wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light. But if you have no light constantly, you have nothing and its called darkness, isn’t it? In reality, darkness isn’t. If it is, well you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn’t you?

Professor: So what is the point you are making, young man ?

Student : Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.

Professor: Flawed ? Can you explain how?

Student : Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is life and then there is death, a good GOD and a bad GOD. You are viewing the concept of GOD as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, Science can’t even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing.

Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it. Now tell me, Professor, do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?

Professor: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of course, I do.

Student : Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?

(The Professor shook his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the argument was going.)

Student : Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor. Are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher?

(The class was in uproar.)

Student : Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor’s brain?

(The class broke out into laughter. )

Student : Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor’s brain, felt it, touched or smelt it? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established Rules of Empirical, Stable, Demonstrable Protocol, Science says that you have no brain, sir. With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?

(The room was silent. The Professor stared at the student, his face unfathomable.)

Professor: I guess you’ll have to take them on faith, son.

Student : That is it sir … Exactly ! The link between man & GOD is FAITH. That is all that keeps things alive and moving.

SIDE NOTE: THIS CONVERSATION IS COMMONLY MIS-LINKED WITH EINSTEIN. HE WAS NOT THE STUDENT.



Lol, so instead of saying something that had to do with the conversation the student pulled some scientific crap to show that we have "faith" in other things. Prof. Owned him and he replied with mumbo jumbo. Lol, I said mumbo jumbo ;)

Sent from my iPhone 5 using GC Forum

#16
Firestorm60

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Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it. Now tell me, Professor, do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?

Professor: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of course, I do.


of course, this is another lie from the story.

If he were a science professor who knew what he was talking about, he would have said, "No, son. I don't teach my students that they evolved from a monkey. Monkeys and humans share a common ancestor that split off into monkeys and humans. Humans are also considered to be apes as well."

But hey, when you are making up a story about an "atheistic science professor" you can make him be as dumb as you want.:D

#17
Lennу

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#18
Turin

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This story is full of logic holes.

#19
Firestorm60

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This story is full of logic holes.


I forget who it was but some Christian theologian a while back said something like, "If evidence contradicts the Bible, then we must go with the evidence." Sounds like a smart guy about this.

Yet the fundamentalist mentality is, "if evidence contradicts the Bible, then the evidence is wrong because the Bible is always right.":laughing:

#20
jduce2412

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I forget who it was but some Christian theologian a while back said something like, "If evidence contradicts the Bible, then we must go with the evidence." Sounds like a smart guy about this.

Yet the fundamentalist mentality is, "if evidence contradicts the Bible, then the evidence is wrong because the Bible is always right.":laughing:


the fundamentalist mentality is undoubtedly flawed...but so is every mentality, even if it be in ways that we know not.


again I reiterate not the importance of the validity of the story, but rather the message that it conveys. A fiction book can have just as great of an impact on humanity as a nonfiction one.

Edited by jduce2412, 20 March 2013 - 10:47 PM.





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