Enhancing your Cannabis' Genetics! Building better DNA foundations

Discussion in 'Cannabis Breeding' started by Vicarious87, Mar 14, 2013.

  1. #1 Vicarious87, Mar 14, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 15, 2013
    Hello fellow blades, and thank you for looking in!

    Im not one for introductions and not too good at putting all my thought into words, but lets try to understand how we can manipulate the our current cannabis genetics and unlock unknown and new potentials that are within the strains we are growing at the moment.

    I am going to throw some extreme thinking out there, and some personal experience that led me to come to these experiments and discover some pretty interesting results, in as little as 4-6 dedicated testing 'cycles'.

    like I said I am no writer and light years from the Pulitzer or whatever the hell that writers award is XD


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    So here is a little back drop of what has led up to current events with my experimentation on a single strain in a little less than 3 years.

    I start off with some FIRE OG clones from my local dispensary and take them home. My first lighting setup is actually a series of 26w(100w equiv) bulbs, 5000 and 6500k bulbs from hardware store. 200w to start out because I had just ordered my HID and CFL setups from online and hadnt arrived for a week or so. I always keep my moms and clones under at least 400wCFL as a rule of thumb now.

    I use botanicare cns17, always have and still do, but i think its time for a change, nevermind that.

    Background on the strain I have manipulated, Fire OG clones from southern california Hollywood/valley region dispensary, sativa dominant hydrid 60/40. Excellent pain medication, all around cure all (I think its more along the lines of SFV og in medical effectiveness) this strain is VERY mold, fungus, mildew resistant and pest resistant. Difficult strain to take root with cloning, takes longer than usual.

    notice resilience to pests, white flies dont bother as much, no mites or caterpillars (some kinda small larvae moth would lay a single grub and i would find them neon green, curled up and dead looking with only a bite or two out of the leaf, I figure its some kinda natural defense mutation? Also forgot to mention that I grow in COCOcoir mixed 60/40 with small perlite, hand water no runoff techniques. Synthetic organic tea mix nutrient regimen.






    So I have these weak lights inches above my clones, and water at 1/2 strength suggested nutes. they stay in this low light condition for a week, but the clones where healthy to start and there werent any mutations or deformities, no single fingered leaves, full sets only.

    I eventually mother these plants out and decide to try my hand at cloning straight to core with greenlight rooting powder, first 2 waves failed, and third wave i kept 75% that survived.

    moms went into flower room after I had enough clones fully propagated.

    NOW the clones are grown to mom size and cloned off of, then the mom is put to flower.

    AGAIN I did this time and time again, not realizing that I was doing it bass acwards, but im always going against the grain in everything in life, so since the moms where huge and still had ample branches and stuff, i flowered them with nice yeilds. Start of three leave mutations due to stress

    you see where this is going. I keep taking clones in a backward fashion, and in my opinion this was breaking down the strains ACTUAL DNA sturcture to some extent, allowing subtle mutations to take place from cycle to cycle, and differing environments. My grow locations are sometimes 80-100miles apart from each other in and around surrounding counties.

    NOW here is where the real scientific stuff comes in I guess.
    Through these cycles, my grow spaces werent in the same place every time. I have had to set up a closet or grow room up in every different place i stayed or moved to. So on the first season I was in my warm cozy constant temperature apartment with near perfect indoor conditions

    Second cycle I had to move to a colder climate, and had difficulty with insulation and keeping a constant temperature. It was colder here, the plants grew much slower, and i took a second cycle of clones in this cold climate, rooted them and raised them for a whole cycle. In this cold climate i took clones, and THOSE clones where moved back into my cozy apartment and you can see where this is going, hot cold hot cold.

    BUT it does not end there my friends, not only have I had the near perfect climate of my apartment, and a cold climate shed/house, there is a third and even fourth phase in this mixture.

    I had to move out fast one time, coudnt keep much, so had a buddy who grows outdoors in a strange climate that is REALLY HOTT in the day, but REALLY COLD at night (no snow or high winds, think desert extremes hot cold) he lived in california in a strange region in-between mountain and desert. I had no choice but to set up shop outdoors. so here are two cycles of backwards cloning AGAIN under these strange outdoor conditions.

    long story short, I bring the clones now 4-5-6 or whatever generation back indoors. It started as a potent FIRE OG lemon scented cleaner that packs an awesome hybrid effect of energetic extreme pain relief, pure medicine IMHO

    OVER the course of this time It now has NEARLY ZERO scent, only when you rub the plant you smell lemon and OG earthy-ness, when harvested and cured, it will leave only a deep brown sugar smell with a minute hint of cheese with a squirt of lemon zest at the end of fresh dug earth. the exhale is a dense smooth sugary flavor with a strong medicinal flavor that is just screaming high THC/CBD resin content. It tastes very medicinal, like cough syrup from the really old days, the shit that had no flavor in the orange/brown clear bottles, but with a much better effect and flavor. It coats the tongue

    The trichomes are super INSANE and the plant grows larger than golfball size nugs for an OG variety. super frosty super gooey sticky, SUPER NINJA plant that has little to no smell other than a deep low musty musk, almost like a woman's perfume from the 1940s, luring, enticing, juicy, amazing.

    Its resilience to temperature swings is amazing, i've had heater/ventilation failures leaving the grow room at 50f temps in the lights off and 102f lights on!!! when I couldnt access my grow some days.

    My final end result is a super potent strain all of my own modification/re-creation and through selective manipulation of the clones used I have been able to beef up the plants special qualities, in a shorter time than starting from SEED crop. My cuttings and plants are more single fingered and super large single fingered varieties.

    I must also mention that I have another strain that has been through a less extensive process but has some comparable outcomes. My strain version of Candy Kush (not train-wreck cross) is very unique in its growth paterns, and has an unusual sweet sunflower scent (super low odor) and great trichomes and vitality/resistance. I may have caught on to something very good here with my growing techniques.

    I believe ANY strain can be manipulated by its grower and newly acclimated and modified for universal grow regions! Adding the benefits of potency, low odor, and vitality.

    any, all thoughts, ideas, input, comments, additions are welcome, questions shoot away. there is more to this story but Im too stoned to cover all the bases to please do inquire!:smoking:

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  2. #2 SpliffyPuffs, Mar 14, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 14, 2013
    I don't know if your manipulating the genetics or making anything different from the origanal mother plant

    I do know that when you grow the same strain in two different climates the buds look different, hell even between growers the same strain can look different.


    I think it has more to do with certain traits being activated for different climates. For example a hybrid plant may lean towards it Sativa heritage in tropical climates and it Indica heritage in colder climates.

    We already know that cold weather unlocks purple so we can't say that there arn't genes in the plant that only kick in when its consistently over a certain temperature, say 95 degrees Fahrenheit.


    Edit: the real test would be to get a first generation clone straight from the dispensary and one of you distant clones and grow them side byside each other with the same feeding and everything
     
  3. Yes, but unfortunately as do most dispensaries, they dont carry the same strains, and when they do its guaranteed not to be what you already have with the same name. But I will try this with some beans that I made a while back, do some sort of side by side.
     
  4. #4 Vicarious87, Mar 15, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 15, 2013
    Updated pics, also I think I will update some more indepth info.

    Here ism y strange Candy Kush. Ive hit it with normal strength nutes, and it was fine until I topped it. Now it is turning a vibrant purple on the stems, somewhat pink like the tops of beets are reddish. teh leaves are a neon, but not unhealthy. no spotting, no burn or curling, the plant doenst seem to be sad, just a strange color. any input fellow growers?
     

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  5. #5 SpliffyPuffs, Mar 15, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 15, 2013
    Try lowering the PH to 5.4-5.6 for hydro, this will make Nitrogen more available and eliminate the Red stems since Nitrogen is a mobile nutrient in the plant.

    I had a White Widow plant and everyone would say how beautiful the stems would turn of this strain only I ran my veg hydro rez at 5.4 to 5.6 and would slowly move up as flowering progressed. Well needless to say, my stems where green and so was the whole plant.

    So this proves that their stems where turning purple in this White Widow plant (all from same mother in town) was because of N def not dna.

    Also, my internodes where much shorter then their's, like half a centimeter between nodes. I achieved this using the Lucas Formula and PH manipulation to alter what Nutrients were more available when the plant needed them.

    See a lot of growers in town think I am stupid, but they don't realize that they don't know shit, they think just cuz they can follow a nutrient calendar they are biologists now, so when I bring up science that is beyond a project an elementary student could pull off they think I am just pulling shit out of my ass.

    The proof was in the pudding though, they even questioned if I had the same cutting of White Widow as everyone else, I was the only one with green from Bottom to Top, still had the leaves from when it was a clone, which was how I proved it was the same clone given to me.

    Edit: Your leaves also look yellow, that's Nitrogen deficiency for sure.

    https://www.icmag.com/modules/Tutorials/PlantTrouble/Merged.htm

    "Nitrogen Deficiencies:
    Plants will exhibit lack of vigor, slow growth and will be weak and stunted. Quality and yield will be significantly reduced. Older leaves become yellow (chlorotic) from lack of chlorophyll. Deficient plants will exhibit uniform light green to yellow on older leaves, these leaves may die and drop. Leaf margins will not curled up noticeably. Chlorosis will eventually spread throughout the plant. Stems, petioles and lower leaf surfaces may turn purple. " (from above link)

    You also have really long internodes, is that just getting done with its stretch in 12/12? I don't know mate cuz WW is known for having short internodes (mine were half a centimeter in veg under a 400w MH) and those look like one to two inch internode length there on yours.

    Edit #2: I know the Lucas Formula is low on Nitrogen on purpose, because too much N can cause stretched internodes and delay flowering as well as lock out other nutrients, But when you drop the PH slightly to 5.4 to 5.6 in hydro, what N is there (and its plenty for being the smallest number on the NPK ratio for the Lusca formula) becomes readily available to the plant, also the increased amount of phosphorus and potassium i the LF helps keep the stems green and internodes short as well.

    I hope it helps, don't mean to offend, but I would like to see those plants looking healthier and you getting better yields as well as discovering traits that can be unlocked through "Climate Manipulation"
     
  6. Thank you spliffypuff for your input, I will lower the ph, its at 5.8 right now in coco coir. This strain is new to me, ive been working fire og for years now and this is a newers train ive had less than 2 cycles experience with. Candy Kush.

    I have always felt what you speak of, about others thinking they are bio-engineers for following a regimen, and slapping on some additives, lmao.

    I dont have much scientific training or background, but I do also feel that we as growers can dial in and know and feel what our plant like.
     
  7. #7 SpliffyPuffs, Mar 15, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 15, 2013
    Nothing too drastic at once, try dropping a 0.1 of Ph every watering, so like 5.7 then 5.6 and if it seems to be liking it go to 5.5 and then 5.4 ( I wouldn't go lower then that though I have heard of as low as 5.2 but I wouldn't go that low)

    P and K deficiencies can also cause red or purple stems. Honestly the Lucas Formula is great and I recommend it for ease of use, the original creator of the LF took all these things into account and already did the work and effort for us.

    Basically Lucas saw that there was too much N in todays recipes given by the manufacturer so he tailored a recipe for General Hydroponics 3 part nutrient system, eliminated the Grow formula and now the whole balanced diet for cannabis is something like 4 parts micro and 8 parts bloom and then the Modified Lucas Formula which adds a little more N back into the mix is 6 parts micro and 9 parts bloom.

    Edit: to have a trait which only grew single fingered leaves would be cool for a disguise, like look I only have one leaf I cant be marijuana that your after, it the next one, they went thata way.
     
  8. I am planning on running the lucas formula when i set up my hydro tables soon. Im currently using CNS17three part, its ok, but I feel I can gain more.

    Yes I was thinking of renaming a stabilized one or three finger and lower variety for stealth grows. Ninja OG or something cool having to do with stealth growing.
     
  9. bump.....

    Good growth on current run of single blades. the leaves are almost 2" wide single blades.
     
  10. climate/growing enviroment effects the overall phenotype.hence the different traits that are being expressed.single bladed leaves are not really mutation/trait per se they are developed naturally by the plant as it tries to gather as much light as quickly as possible for photosynthesis.you will notice this with clones.
     
  11. soon to report. bump.
     


  12. What your plants are exhibiting is the result of light manipulation, not climate manipulation.
    I used to run seeds from germ at 12/12 and they produce plants with trifolate leaves. If you place a plant with less than 5 blades into flower, one or three, so three nodes max on most varieties(tiney plants), it will continue to make the same ducksfoot leaves. I used to do it because it's easier to have a back porch filled with three bladed leafed plants than the classic marijuana looking ones. My neighbor thought I went into the japanese maple biz.

    Light manipulation, insufficiency, degradation, and inconsistency can cause a plant to use it's adaptive skill set. They are all genetically complicated, and light is the trigger.

    :wave:
     

  13. awesome, i have to try that, but your neighbor didn't notice it was flowering? or did you just temporarily keep it under 12-12 then reveg it?
     
  14. Neighbor stopped looking after it was assumed to be maples. Low lying, short, tri leafed, didn't cause a second look.
     
  15. Phenotypical variation my friend! It's all about the environment the plant is in. I had some 3 foot violator kushes that had to be moved, one valley over 2500 feet higher than where they started, and It's amazing to see, the bottom leaves are WAY kush, nearly round blades, but the growth since moving has slowly moved towards a sativan dominance, thin long blades. Pretty much all my hybrids can and will show phenotypical variation to some extent. I find it amazing

    Sent from my ADR6350 using Grasscity Forum mobile app

     
  16. I second that. And the phonetype comments below
     
  17. I know this is an old threat, but I think it is VERY important to remember that genetics are only 50% responsible for a plant's phenotype. Take "identical" twins for example: they never look or act the same. Ever. Even though they share 100% of there genetics (just like a clone), EVERY PART of the environment affects the expression of those genetics. Environmental stressors can activate dormant genes, or even cause mutation of existing genes (though this is random and usually of little consequence). It's not just the grower, the lights, the nutes, the temperature, the humidity, ad infinitum... it's everything.

    The moral here is that it is highly unlikely that environment is causing any sort of "genetic enhancement." Some of the phenotypical differences observed in the clones MIGHT be due to genetic mutation, but I doubt it. The most likely explanation is phenotypical variance due to stressors put on the clones by the environment, resulting in expression of previously dormant genes.

    For additional reading on the subject, please read DJ Short's book.
    FYI: It happens in humans too... that's why many genetic disorders don't present themselves until an individual is older.
     
  18. lmfaoooooooooooooo so worth quoting a year old post
     
  19. You know what's up, these other people are talking out their arse :)
     
  20.  
    Identical twins? your comparing Humans and Plants to each other?
     
    Wow this has to be one of the more un scientific remarks I have read in a while.
     
    These are not mutations or even Genetic drift, your expressions are different based on environmental triggers.
     
    The only way you can begin to make a change in a strain is to have a male and make a cross, grow out the sibling generation and backcross the desired expressions in the same environment for a few generations. Then and only then can you have claimed to have made any kind of strain.
     
    And even after all that without a firm grasp of the science you are literally pissing in the wind.
     

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