breeding advice from the pros pls

i posted this thread in indoor growing also sry for the double post but looking for some experienced growers advice. i have grown for about 10 years, mostly outdoors but never was interested in breeding until now:D

i have posted around looking for some strains that i want to breed and have a pretty good idea of what im going to go for.

im looking to create a large producing strain that is fast flowering, hopefully a sativa dominant hybrid. id like some help and advice on how the breeding process goes.

i plan on using colloidal silver that im going to make and first and foremost going to cube the strain that i currently have to make a more stable pheno. which is the easy part...the strain i have has 3 main phenos and i want to reproduce a stable strain with only 1 pheno or as close as possible.

once i have succeeded with creating seed with the stable pheno..i plan on crossing that with a high yielding fast flowering indica dominant strain such as big bud/critical mass.. the strain i have now is a fast flowering sativa. so if i were looking to keep most of the genetics from the sativa which would i use to get pollen from, the indica or the sativa?

all advice is welcome, but someone with experience in breeding and crossing strains would be most helpful

Edited by Panda85, 03 June 2012 - 09:42 PM.

Read this thread...

http://forum.grassci...w-put-here.html

i have read most of that and continued on with some research. i just started making cs today and going to be testing it out very soon.

i still have a few questions though.

1 - if i have the pheno of c99 that i want to breed, but that strain has 3 main phenos, what are the chances of getting a different phenotype if i breed the one i have, with itself? should i still cube it so it always stays the same or only cube it if i find a different phenotype?

im having trouble selecting a strain to breed it with to add mass but keep most of the c99 genetics. its parents are jack herer which is(sk#1 x NL#5 x original haze) and shiva skunk which is (sk#1 x NL#5)

2 - should i find a high yielding skunk strain that has sk#1 in its genetics? or just find any strain that has a high yield? id like to try and keep most of the genetics the same but it needs more weight.
any ideas or suggestions for strains???

I would expect that some combination of all the traits you are looking for can be found in NL5 x Haze ... if you want something even higher yielding, try crossing Critical Mass with your favorite Sativa/Sativa dom hybrid (Mango Haze?).

The reason I suggest 5Haze or a Critical hybrid is because they are more stable than what you are trying to produce and you will save yourself quite a few grow cycles that you can now spend selecting other traits. There are many, many Haze hybrids out there with all kinds of flavors, yields, etc. Take it easy on yourself at first, unless you have the time and space to experiment.

Hope that provided some food for thought. Cheers!

nice. i was asking around for other strains also in the indoor section... got the same response.. nl5 x haze from greenhouse seeds. thanks for the reply. also i was looking into NL x skunk by world of seeds rated at 400-500 g/m2 with the same flower period as this c99. both nl x haze or nl x skunk would add some weight imo and stays in the family. jack herer and shiva skunk was rated at 150 g/m2 from what i read.. and seem to be pretty close im getting about 200 g/m2 but its too branchy and stretchy which is killing the yield.

uhhhh if your looking for greatness, ditch the unnatural colodial silver man! selfing plants is inefficient and detrimental to the genetic family from there on out, looking for a fast flowering sativa, take a look into Jack The Ripper and Pandoras Box as JTR is one of the fastest haze plants out there, and Pandora is a MALE BX, very uncommon but very effective.... if you want to breed watch this

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7tUjV1B96c&feature=plcp"]The Weed Nerd Episode 47 - YouTube[/ame]

and browse around the weed nerd episodes, 20-50 are very informative on breeding although all are great ones

Ccoastal

stay away from GreenHouse Seeds tho, if they are even in your menu you still have much to learn about the breeders in our cannabis community, check out TGA some more, there is always great stuff there, and unlike profit driven douche Arjan, Subcool is one of the kindest people i know and holds the future of the plant above mere profits, which unlike arjan, is why Sub wont produce fem seeds, because they are truly detrimental to the cannabis genome

Ccoastal

i have read most of that and continued on with some research. i just started making cs today and going to be testing it out very soon.

i still have a few questions though.

1 - if i have the pheno of c99 that i want to breed, but that strain has 3 main phenos, what are the chances of getting a different phenotype if i breed the one i have, with itself? should i still cube it so it always stays the same or only cube it if i find a different phenotype?

im having trouble selecting a strain to breed it with to add mass but keep most of the c99 genetics. its parents are jack herer which is(sk#1 x NL#5 x original haze) and shiva skunk which is (sk#1 x NL#5)

2 - should i find a high yielding skunk strain that has sk#1 in its genetics? or just find any strain that has a high yield? id like to try and keep most of the genetics the same but it needs more weight.
any ideas or suggestions for strains???

Hey man, Ok so theoretically. If the plant has 3 different pheno's and your crossing it with itself. You could end up with all 3 phenos randomly in the mix. Now its what you do with those beans from the first cross. Like this:

P1 x P1 = F1 (100%+0%/2 = 50%)

With F1 you have a mix of all the phenos that the strain could possibly produce. But what you want to do is keep on popping your F1 beans, untill you find one that has multiple phenos that you like or are looking for. Then cross it back with one of the parents that has the more desireable traits.

P1 x F1 = B1 (100%+50%/2=75%)

Then you would end up with roughly 75% by mathwise atleast to be like the P1 that you chose to back cross with. So with each back cross back you are taking the newest B1,B2,B3 and crossing it back with P1 or P2 and making the selected pheno's that you found more pronounced each cross till you have similarity among all the beans.

P1 x B1 = B2 (100%+75%/2=87.5%)

Then take the B2 and back cross them one final time to the P1.

P1 x B2 = B3 (100%+87.5/2=93.75%)

So in theory with this cross you should have about 93.75% of your beans that are B3 will be the same, And with that you should have only a low amount of 7% atleast math wise that can vary from the rest of the bunch. Now it doesnt work pefectly like this but that is the simple way to think about it.

Once your strain is stable it becomes a Ibl (Inbred Line) and you start all over with that IBL and introduce a new partner P2 and introduce new traits that aventually after back crossing and cubing to single out those pheno's you have your newest IBL with all said combinations that your hopeing for uniformly in seed stock.

Atleast thats where I am getting, IDK Im tired at the moment so my head isnt completly straight. I just hope that when I read this tomorrow it comes out how it did in my head.

Lols Happy smokin and growin.

And as far as finding another strain that is heavy yeilding. I would try and find one that is totally different, as in not related to the original cross at all in hopes that you could get hybrid vigor in the newest set of beans by introducing to completley different strains together!


But if you really want to single out a certain trait like hard core, approach like this..

P1 x P1 = F1

F1 x F1 = F2

Go as far as F3 or F4 then your selection will be huge. Pretty much you will have endless pheno's So out of those then take the ones that are the best in your eyes, or show the traits that you desire most and then start cubing them.

F4 x P1 =B1 and so on and so forth. The combinations are endless really. It all depends on time and patients. Really! Good luck

Like I said I hope this sounds right and I will be back to see if you have further questions or if your more confuesed then when you started lols.

Happy smokin and growin.

Edited by WaGreenGuru, 26 June 2012 - 11:32 AM.

guru's science is sound! the only problem i have had with IBL is the loss of recessive genetics and vigor, the wide base of phenotypes gives a huge backlog of resistances to infections that is lost after the F4 generation or so, not that great things havent been done with IBL, Pandoras Box is a semi-IBL as as JTR BX to SQ (a male BX thats little seen in the cannabis world) all of my pandoras look like clones from seed, but being as they are only a single BX the recessive genetics are still there so the hybrid vigor is still strong, although the phenotypes have been narrowed greatly

Ccoastal

If you're looking for a fast flowering sativa to add yield I'd like to suggest an African landrace, they have short flowering times, and are quite a good smoke with their higher levels of thc-v and genetics not normally found in non-homegrown bud.

Note: African landraces, like their Asian (sativa specifically) are a bit prone to hermie, although you wont be sitting on the 12-14 flowering time that a chocolate Thai has.

I believe world of seeds has 2 strains in, kwazulu and kilimanjaro at the moment. Legitimate durban poison is also a good choice from the African genetics, although most African genetics would be desireable.

i thought durban was a non-kush afghan? maybe not, just stay away from the malawi gold! maybe ten years ago it would have been one helluva fund, but not since arjan got his grubby lil hands on it and gave out his fem shit beans to the local african farmer, someone needs to get rid of that guy and save the worlds genetics!

i thought durban was a non-kush afghan? maybe not, just stay away from the malawi gold! maybe ten years ago it would have been one helluva fund, but not since arjan got his grubby lil hands on it and gave out his fem shit beans to the local african farmer, someone needs to get rid of that guy and save the worlds genetics!

Nope, durban is like actually a place in Africa, or is it just Durba? Idk

I'd say if you could get the real genetics for malawi gold to grow some, but you'd have to like go to Africa probably.

Edit heres a source with alot of african genetics
http://www.marijuana...angenetics.html

Edited by Dissec, 26 June 2012 - 02:56 PM.

ahh ill have to look into the durban again, maybe my mind just linked durban and turban lmao yeah i wish i could get some true landrace malawi gold, have you seen arjans strainhunter videos? on the africa and india expedition he gives out a ton of seeds to the local farmers, all i could think was NOOOOOO!!! arjan you prick your ruining landrace genes!!

like arjan give a rats ass about anything but his wallet .

that's like asking Cheney to have a heart..

then the shit headed motherfucker did it in the Caribbean.. hope he comes to the Emerald Triangle next .

hahahha i kept hoping they would get busted... but it only ended up being the cool hippie guy goin to jail

i like how rich ass arjan only paid the group of locals like 5 bucks to pack his gear and lead them up into the hills, cmon man at least drop a jackson to em!

Ccoastal

At first I was like oh this is cool these dudes go out and find strains, bring them back and grow tons of bud with seeds then sell all the seeds.

Then he gave them those seeds, and I was sad:( I just want to get untainted landraces from around the world and this dick is tainting them! Its like if one guy in your highschool gave every girl herpes its just not cool man... wait thats not the same, the message is there though lol

I hope the farmers didn't use them or set them up somewhere else, maybe arjan told them not to let it contaminate the field off camera, but I doubt it.

I think his next trip should be to somewhere like the arctic circle, stay away from the good genetics!

Its like if one guy in your highschool gave every girl herpes its just not cool man... wait thats not the same, the message is there though lol

Herpes/Hermies..same diff to me when it comes to breeding. AVOID AT ALL COSTS!!!!

thanks for all the comments and pointing in the right direction to do this right!! im a pretty nerdy person who cant get enough legit info on breeding. asking around on forums people just say use cs, or let them fox tail and self breed them selves or pollinate others with cs treated plants. i was wondering if each time you use cs to self a plant does it increase the likely hood of it becoming hermie?

the cindy99 i have is from female seeds, very strong female and have ran into several problems and never seen it hermie out, like i have with some other strains from dif breeders. its the best day time smoke ive ever had, love the smell/taste, love growing it, but it has major flaws. the branches can not support them selves during flower, they dont yield much of anything in soil(from what ive seen)... a simple dwc setup has blown it away yield wise. massive buds, but still cant support its own weight, not even close. its super stretchy a spaced out buds that dont ever fill in all of the way, just hand full clusters that are spaced out. i cant grow enough for patients that are blown away by it and want more and more but its gone by the time its cured..

the main reason i want to use cs on the c99 is to get seed stock of it, since it has picked up pm from a ww clone from a friend a while back, and i need to kill it eventually since i can not get rid of it. i did use cs that i made on 2 small clones and they are just starting to form pollen sacks.

on the other hand i also have a male from "sam the skunk man" which came as freebies in a 2011 order. the seeds were mixed up and genetics are unknown for sure but there is a list of the possible genetics that i found and could post them up if anyone wants. most are original haze mixes and sk1 mixes.

the male started producing sacks pretty quick, smells woody and slighty like cedar. It isnt growing extremely fast and it seems to have very strong stable stem and is not stretching much at all. it looks like a pretty even hybrid id say about 60/40 sativa dominant.

im thinking im going to cross that male with the c99 to see how it turns out, which is much better because they will not be feminized seeds. that way if the offspring comes out more like what im looking for then i have options since i could find males and females in the bunch.

i also have some seeds on the way, mostly from world of seeds, nl x sk,
nl x bb(big bud) and a landrace afghan kush. i also picked up a nl x sk from g13 labs, and ultra skunk from dutch passion. ive never had luck with anything from dutch passion all hermied out. all of the seeds ordered were feminized, so my only way of breeding anything is if i cross this male with c99 to make a c99 hybrid and find a male similar to what im looking for and cross with one of the indica dominant plants i ordered.

im kind of going for 2 or 3 different things at the same time which is probably too much for someone just learning all of this crap(but hoping i get lucky). i want seed stock of the c99, make a hybrid c99 using a plant with similar genes to see if i can fix some of its flaws, and also get a higher yielding strain that is more like this pheno of c99 for the patients that i "donate" to.

here is a pic of the donor boy, for the c99. how long until i should expect these sacks to open up?

also the c99 has been ready to cut at week 7 or 8 of flower, i have 1 i just started its flower cycle(which is too late imo) and one that is week 4 currently, if i use the pollen on a branch of the week 4 plant, can i just harvest the rest of the plant and leave the branch an extra 2-3 weeks for the seeds to mature?




.
and here is a pic of the c99 at week 4...is she too late to receive pollen?

I am sorry, but if your definition or given example of a breeder is a guy that goes by the alias of "subcool", then you have a ton left to learn. He is nothing more than a pollen chucker. A wannabe breeder with a ego then tends to do a bunch of silly and pointless chest pounding.

Breeders produce stable strains. Not cross two workings of others, give it a fancy dancy catchy name(all for the single purpose of capital production), then call it there own workings.

TO be absolute clear, I am not trash talking his persons, I am correcting his error ridden publicly stated deductions, and self appointed unprofessional title of breeder. I do not support these types of people. To be called a breeder takes years and years of education,and professional training from a education institution. Botanist and breeders don't teach themselves. It's serious work, and irregardless of how well he thinks he knows the plant over his years of growing and "breeding", he gives the uneducated, a perfect view of an uneducated self taught hobby farmer. It's a hobby and passion of his, which is not to be confused with a educated and well trained profession. However, us stoners have a huge history of being easily confused and easily taken advantage of by those looking to make as much money as possible. Of all the titles he seems to run with "weed nerd" is about his most accurate one!

Lastly, if you think a guy that goes by the self appointed alias of "the king of cannabis" is some form of a "breeder" please reread what I posted above!

All The Best~Cheers World

Edited by SkunkManSam420, 30 June 2012 - 05:02 PM.