Universal Basic Income

Have heard this idea bandied about a bit here in Europe and i am not trying to say it would work in the US.

A universal basic income (UBI) would replace a countries social welfare system and state pension schemes. Everybody in the state would get a basic income regardless of whether they were employed or unemployed.
Everybody in the state would receive a UBI sufficient to have a frugal but decent lifestyle without supplementary income from paid work. Any income made apart from the UBI would be taxed at a set rate.

Sounds mad at first but if there is logic in it. The possibilities for welfare fraud would be minimized, the bureaucracy involved in running a welfare system would bring savings and i am sure employers would welcome this system.
With UBI there would be no minimum wage. Menial jobs would become worthwhile doing.

UBI would foster entrepreneurship and make it a lot easier for small business owners to get started. With the benefit of a basic income business owners would have a good foundation to start with, a security net of sorts.

Society would benefit from the creative work that artists etc would be free to spend their time on.

Mad or could it work ?

Prepares for lots of "theft"

Edited by Ignatius Cock, 28 May 2012 - 03:51 PM.

So... If I move to Europe they will pay me to not work? Which country? I heard France pays any non french people and all muslims to not work...

So we should pay people even more to not work? Don't we do that enough already with the welfare system.

This idea sounds like welfare fraud on steroids.

So... If I move to Europe they will pay me to not work? Which country? I heard France pays any non french people and all muslims to not work...

Where i am you get a basic of €186 ($230)a week. There are rent supplements paid on top of that and various other benefits that people can claim (children etc).

Our tax system is complicated and self employed people are not eligible for welfare payments if their business fails. (They have to be means tested and if they are found to have savings they do not get welfare) This is a barrier to starting a business.
People who are employed pay income tax and PRSI (social tax) that entitles them to benefits if they become unemployed. The process is weighed down with red tape and a nightmare. UBI would do away with all of this.

Its just an idea that is being bandied about here at the moment.

So we should pay people even more to not work? Don't we do that enough already with the welfare system.

This idea sounds like welfare fraud on steroids.

Those that are working would also get paid the UBI.

With a UBI menial jobs would become attractive and employers would be free to pay what they wanted.

Those that are working would also get paid the UBI.

With a UBI menial jobs would become attractive and employers would be free to pay what they wanted.

Why work a menial job if you get income. You assume people are hard working and persevering? Most are not. This system only works on the premises that people are hard working and want to better their life.

Why work a menial job if you get income. You assume people are hard working and persevering? Most are not. This system only works on the premises that people are hard working and want to better their life.

People who want to sit on their arses will always sit on their arses.
The current welfare systems in place in most of the West was designed as a safety net for those that found themselves temporarily out of work. It has become a monster down through the years and needs to be changed.

Simply stopping all welfare and having a every man for himself system would not work. Change as Barry would say is needed.

What incentive is there to work at the moment ?

I strongly believe in Social Safety nets. The reason our country has done so well in the past is that we offered a paved road to the Middle Class for the citizens of this country who were in need.

I also strongly believe that all social programs should offer opportunities for those less fortunate not just give people money. Like the old saying. Offer a hand up, not a hand out.

People who want to sit on their arses will always sit on their arses.
The current welfare systems in place in most of the West was designed as a safety net for those that found themselves temporarily out of work. It has become a monster down through the years and needs to be changed.

Simply stopping all welfare and having a every man for himself system would not work. Change as Barry would say is needed.

No I agree we need welfare. Regardless of the fraud it's still necessary.

But I feel that openly giving everyone an income is a mistake. Not everyone that doesn't work is on welfare in our current system. In the system you proposed everyone in the entire country gets welfare. Even if they work.

No I agree we need welfare. Regardless of the fraud it's still necessary.

But I feel that openly giving everyone an income is a mistake. Not everyone that doesn't work is on welfare in our current system. In the system you proposed everyone in the entire country gets welfare. Even if they work.

We give nearly everybody that does not work money as it is.

With a UBI though working would become more attractive. The one thing you hear from people who are unemployed on welfare all the time is

"I am afraid to take a job on low pay because i am better off on welfare"

This worry is now gone with UBI. A job earning $200 a week flipping burgers or mowing grass is now attractive.
Employers would be free to pay what they feel a job is worth. If anything a UBI would create jobs.

The number of people on welfare and the number of people not working are not the same.

The number of people on welfare and the number of people not working are not the same.

True. But what difference does that make ?

What % of people who do not work are not in receipt of welfare ? I bet its a small number.

No social safety net is needed or helpful for anything. The private sector would make up for the lack of government "aid". Just like it does in foreign aid.

The Privatization of Foreign Aid: Reassessing National Largesse | Foreign Affairs

In the last decade, U.S. government aid has been far outstripped by private donations -- from foundations, private voluntary organizations (PVOS), corporations, universities, religious groups, and individuals giving directly to needy family members abroad. There is no comprehensive measure of how much Americans donate overseas, but a conservative estimate, based on surveys and voluntary reporting, puts annual private giving around $35 billion. Even this low-ball figure is more than three and a half times the amount of official development assistance (ODA) given out in a year by the U.S. government.

Freedom works. You don't need to enslave a population to help the poor.

True. But what difference does that make ?

What % of people who do not work are not in receipt of welfare ? I bet its a small number.

I bet it's not.

Freedom works. You don't need to enslave a population to help the poor.

Who are you enslaving ?

Everybody would receive a UBI.

Who is the slave ?

Who are you enslaving ?

Everybody would receive a UBI.

Who is the slave ?

Anyone who is taxed to pay for it is a slave to those who don't work and therefore don't pay taxes.

No social safety net is needed or helpful for anything. The private sector would make up for the lack of government "aid". Just like it does in foreign aid.

The Privatization of Foreign Aid: Reassessing National Largesse | Foreign Affairs

Freedom works. You don't need to enslave a population to help the poor.

Well during the great depression it can be argued that social safety net would have helped,

Judging by hoovervills and those slums in the southwest after the dustbowl

And private companies aren't going to pay for your chemo..just saying

Edited by dankydankk, 28 May 2012 - 04:50 PM.

And I wonder if this system is more efficient, than our current welfare in terms of cost.

Cuz wouldn't that be something like 300-350 a week u.s. $?

So roughly 12-1400 a month.

How much do most earn a month from welfare?

And does a UBI cover food? Or is that extra?

Edited by dankydankk, 28 May 2012 - 04:52 PM.

Anyone who is taxed to pay for it is a slave to those who don't work and therefore don't pay taxes.

It makes more sense than the system we currently have.
Whilst i know you are a Libertarian and see all taxes as theft would you not agree that a UBI makes more sense than what we have now ?

Well during the great depression it can be argued that social safety net would have helped,

Judging by hoovervills and those slums in the southwest after the dustbowl

The Great Depression was caused by artificial credit expansion by the Fed, then it was prolonged for over a decade because of Hoover and FDR's social programs. It was 100% government caused, then prolonged by government.

Freedom would have helped, because it would have prevented the depression from occurring in the first place.