lower leaves wilting 2wks into 12/12

hey dudes,

been getting some issues round wk2 of 12/12 with cheese

lower leaves wilt, margins go crispy and they eventually fall off
stays lower down the plant, they do get big the lower areas are not so well lit
although i do prune the bottoms before 12/12
doesnt seem to affect bud quality or yield and growth rate is fine,
just thinking mayb it could be better

using:
canna coco professional
R/O (EC 0.08) with 4ml cal and 2ml mag per 10L (brings R/O to EC 0.5)
canna coco AB 10ml to 30ml max per 10L (EC 1.0 to 2.2 max)
canna PK 13/14 starting 2ml per 10L and working up to 15ml

600w HPS
day 28C
night 19C
ample air exchange
RH 60-70% veg
RH 40-50% when things start to get buddy

im thinking either salt buildup, phosphorus def (there is no grow and bloom formula just A+B and PK additive), or some kind of fungus/mold thing??
maybe all of the above...

here some pics any help would be much appreciated

greenmanalishi5

Edited by greenmanalishi5, 20 May 2012 - 09:41 PM.

Initiate bloom nutrients at 12/12. These plants are asking you for more phosphorus.

When everything's added, what's your EC?

Initiate bloom nutrients at 12/12. These plants are asking you for more phosphorus.

nice one man
another one for the phosphorus...
a friend thought it was fungal the other day im hoping it aint...
big clean up and all

only 1 small prob... canna only does one formula of A+B,
not grow AB and bloom AB, just one 2 part for the duration
everyone over here (europe) swears by the stuff... i know their canna coco substrate is a good product however i feel like im startin to go off-piste, adding cal and mag mono-nutes at my own ratios, messing about with the PK13/14 in ways they dont recommend. im doing so with prudence but I need my meds man... if i mess up i may run out, but at the same time i want the plants to get what they need at all stages of growth... theyre my babies!

so been thinking of goin over to AN as they have the sensi grow and bloom, plus the cal mag additives in prepared ratios that would be good for my RO water... i cant use the tap here its way too high, EC 2.0

ive been gettin this around week 2 so this time ive added the PK additive at the start of 12/12 to see if it cures it, but only at 2ml per 10L, with a plan to increase to max of 15ml. whereas canna says to add it for 1 week only week round the middle of flowering at 15ml, full strength

I wanna be sure that its P def before i go on with more PK13/14 as i dont wanna cook em so early. i normally see a bit of tip burn by the end of flower anyway so i feel if i go over the nomral it could take em into the red.

looks like im gonna have to start addin more PK13/14...
although I have another option of adding P as a mono nutrient (canna) without the K

or mayb try switching to AN sensi bloom although i didnt really wanna switch nutes mid way and i didnt have the money for their line so i havent switched earlier. also a little confused about the schedule.

wot do you think?

When everything's added, what's your EC?

when everythings added the EC is 2.1 atmo my max EC now will be 2.3 including PK13/14 my old tap water was 0.6 so i mixed it 50/50 with RO to get a 0.4 EC base i think canna's coco feed was designed to work with an average soft water pure RO gave cal mag deficiencies hence the 50/50 mix which cured it. now my tap has an EC of 2.0 im concerned that its got contaminants in it, its that high! hence the added cal mag which again has cured cal mag. now theres no cal mag deficiencies the problem i have now seems to look more like phosphorus. when the cal mag was there it was harder to tell what was the cause. are you thinkin straight up burn? ive considered it... canna reckons max 2.1-2.2 plus ec of water so im still in the range even with a max of 2.3 including water... but i do normally see a bit of burn on the tips toward the very end...

nice one man
another one for the phosphorus...
a friend thought it was fungal the other day im hoping it aint...
big clean up and all

only 1 small prob... canna only does one formula of A+B,
not grow AB and bloom AB, just one 2 part for the duration
everyone over here (europe) swears by the stuff... i know their canna coco substrate is a good product however i feel like im startin to go off-piste, adding cal and mag mono-nutes at my own ratios, messing about with the PK13/14 in ways they dont recommend. im doing so with prudence but I need my meds man... if i mess up i may run out, but at the same time i want the plants to get what they need at all stages of growth... theyre my babies!

so been thinking of goin over to AN as they have the sensi grow and bloom, plus the cal mag additives in prepared ratios that would be good for my RO water... i cant use the tap here its way too high, EC 2.0

ive been gettin this around week 2 so this time ive added the PK additive at the start of 12/12 to see if it cures it, but only at 2ml per 10L, with a plan to increase to max of 15ml. whereas canna says to add it for 1 week only week round the middle of flowering at 15ml, full strength

I wanna be sure that its P def before i go on with more PK13/14 as i dont wanna cook em so early. i normally see a bit of tip burn by the end of flower anyway so i feel if i go over the nomral it could take em into the red.

looks like im gonna have to start addin more PK13/14...
although I have another option of adding P as a mono nutrient (canna) without the K

or mayb try switching to AN sensi bloom although i didnt really wanna switch nutes mid way and i didnt have the money for their line so i havent switched earlier. also a little confused about the schedule.

wot do you think?

That's what the cannazym is for. At 2-3ml per liter and with a 0-2-1 nutrient ratio this product is crucial with their system.

Your EC seems too high to me. I typically enter flowering around a 1.2 EC with the best effect. I find that plants can handle more food during peak veg than during the transitional stage and I cut back a little to keep myself from over feeding early in bloom.

That's what the cannazym is for. At 2-3ml per liter and with a 0-2-1 nutrient ratio this product is crucial with their system.

Your EC seems too high to me. I typically enter flowering around a 1.2 EC with the best effect. I find that plants can handle more food during peak veg than during the transitional stage and I cut back a little to keep myself from over feeding early in bloom.

i do use the cannazym sorry forgot to mention... also rhizo in veg. so youre leaning toward the nute burn... it could be just a bit much for em. what kind of water do you use, do you add any cal mag? when do you use PK13/14, are you also using the boost accelerator? what is your max ec in veg and flower including PK?

Right, take a step back and breathe......

Keep it basic my man. Keep it simple.

At that EC I'd be very surprised if it's a phos deficiency. If anything was deficient at that strength it'd be because of lockout. There's a bigger chance the leaf is bloated than starved.

You're starting with a background of 0.4 yes? So you should bring that to about 1.2 with your base feed. They shouldn't need much more than that. If they do, give them 1.4. Hugnrier plants will need about 0.2 more than this, more sensitive plants might need 0.2 less.

Add in pk when flower really kicks in to adjust the ratio of the feed. You want to bring the N level down a bit and bump up the PK. You use PK to do that. Make your adjustments small. Don't use nutes to try to instigate changes in the plants, that'll only happen in its own time.

If you want to use cal mag, use it to up your base EC by 0.2, then do the above.

You should know how to read your plant. If it starts to look generally pale, with the lowest leaves yellowing quite obviously, then up the base feed which contains the N, by 0.2. Adjust in small increments.

If your stems purple slightly, or the middle leaves but not lowest ones pale a bit, up the PK by 0.2.

But always make sure the temps at root level do not get below 19c. That's very very important. If the temps of a wet medium get to 18 or below, that's the point where vital nutrients will be locked out and it'll cause all sorts of symptoms which will, obviously, resemble deficiency.

Just to be sure, keep your thermometer at pot level and check the lowest reading at the coldest time.

Often the best growth booster/magic ingredient/cure all you can have is a heater.

Edited by TheWatcher, 22 May 2012 - 01:21 AM.

i do use the cannazym sorry forgot to mention... also rhizo in veg. so youre leaning toward the nute burn... it could be just a bit much for em. what kind of water do you use, do you add any cal mag? when do you use PK13/14, are you also using the boost accelerator? what is your max ec in veg and flower including PK?

No, I'm not really leaning towards nutrient burn, although this isn't to say that buildup in the media is non-existent.

I use tap water, but I get good, soft, stuff. Under 0.15ec.

I will add Cal-Mag Plus, or a similar product, when using Canna Coco. I do this not for the Calcium or Magnesium, but for the Iron. Some tap sources contain plenty of Iron while others do not. In the last year or so I have taken to using Cutting Edge Solutions Micro, which is the same price but it is like 3x the concentration and contains a variety of other goodies. When I add Cal-Mag Plus, or Micro, I prefer to not add more than 0.25ec to the tap water. Harder water would need less.

PK 13/14 is very concentrated and just a little bit goes a very long way. Adding just 2ml per gallon of solution could increase the ppm's of phosphorus by 25% from their unsupplemented levels. Start with the PK boost around day 25 to 28. Begin adding it very gently and slowly work up to the directed strength by day 45 to 48.

Yes, the Boost Accelerator is designed to be used throughout flowering. I find it to be rather expensive. To help cut the costs but maintain the effect I have found that applying a foliar spray program with this product is useful. In side-by-side tests done with molasses versus CannaBoost the plants that got the boost were noticeably more resinous and had a stronger smell and flavor. It is good stuff, I just don't use it anymore. Try using it in the reservoir every other feeding, and applying it as a foliar spray to the underside of the leaves just as the lights come on 2 or 3 days a week.

My Max EC in Veg is around 1.6 to 1.8. In flowering it is between 1.8 and 2.1. There are many variables within a given phenotype so these numbers are approximate.

A possibility for the cause of this problem could be a dry period. Canna Coco A+B contains a very good deal of Calcium and with the Calcium supplement in use then there could be an over abundance of Calcium being retained by the Coco Cation Buffer. This "excess" Calcium isn't really a problem until the coco goes dry and the element drops out of solution. One of the compounds that Calcium will precipitate with readily is Phosphate. So, in this case, it could be that the coco dried out between waterings, locking up Phosphorus and making it unavailable to the plant. Whenever I see a nutritional issue with my plants I usually collect a decent amount of runoff with a 1/2 strength solution to remove the possibility that buildup is contributing to the issue. With a clean coco that still has the balance of elements you are providing in the nutrient solution you can then begin to tune things in a little better.

If you have had a dry out within the last 2 weeks then this could be the source of your issue. Sometimes, after a transplant, I will allow for a little more time between each watering to help the young root system establish itself in a new container. This tends to cause a phosphorus shortage that displays itself on the bottom most leaves and working upwards. The answer to this problem is not more phosphorus but just more regular feedings. It may be that there is plenty of P present but made unavailable.

Right, take a step back and breathe......

Keep it basic my man. Keep it simple.

At that EC I'd be very surprised if it's a phos deficiency. If anything was deficient at that strength it'd be because of lockout. There's a bigger chance the leaf is bloated than starved.

You're starting with a background of 0.4 yes? So you should bring that to about 1.2 with your base feed. They shouldn't need much more than that. If they do, give them 1.4. Hugnrier plants will need about 0.2 more than this, more sensitive plants might need 0.2 less.

Add in pk when flower really kicks in to adjust the ratio of the feed. You want to bring the N level down a bit and bump up the PK. You use PK to do that. Make your adjustments small. Don't use nutes to try to instigate changes in the plants, that'll only happen in its own time.

If you want to use cal mag, use it to up your base EC by 0.2, then do the above.

You should know how to read your plant. If it starts to look generally pale, with the lowest leaves yellowing quite obviously, then up the base feed which contains the N, by 0.2. Adjust in small increments.

If your stems purple slightly, or the middle leaves but not lowest ones pale a bit, up the PK by 0.2.

But always make sure the temps at root level do not get below 19c. That's very very important. If the temps of a wet medium get to 18 or below, that's the point where vital nutrients will be locked out and it'll cause all sorts of symptoms which will, obviously, resemble deficiency.

Just to be sure, keep your thermometer at pot level and check the lowest reading at the coldest time.

Often the best growth booster/magic ingredient/cure all you can have is a heater.

so your max EC is 1.2 - 1.4, or 1.6 for a feeder... how often do you water? by your figures i would be running them in the red... in the middle theres no discoloration but it looks like theyre cupping downward slightly, i added the PK early this time to try to correct the symptom that looks like phosphorus deficiency, i normally give it mid flower. in doing so, if its overfeeding, this has raised the EC again my night temps never drop below 19c, i have an oil filled rad with a digital thermostat that i couldnt live without. current night temp is min 21c at pot level. will make sure there are no cold spots tho, you can never have too many thermometers

No, I'm not really leaning towards nutrient burn, although this isn't to say that buildup in the media is non-existent.

i dont know whether i can get the cal-mag plus or micro that you are using SCMC but i will have a look... you need something with the RO...

i can order advanced nutrients sensical...

........................... cal-mag plus ... Sensical Grow ... Sensical Bloom
Total Nitrogen (N) .. 2.0% ............. 4.0% ............... 3.0%
Calcium (Ca) ......... 3.2% ............. 5.0% ............... 3.2%
Magnesium (Mg) .... 1.2% ............. 0.6% ............... 0.9%
Iron (Fe) .............. 0.1% ............. 0.12% ............. ???

the bloom sensical has a profile similar to calmag plus, iron is listed in the ingredients but not listed as a percentage on the on the bloom label, so i dont think theres much iron in the bloom.

what do you think? any other good ones on the market? i was looking at humboldt nutrients a while back and considering some of their stuff... they have sea mag and sea cal i think

at the mo i only have canna cal and mag mono-nutrients, just knocked up a mix...

starting with RO at EC 0.08, added cal mag at 3:1 to get an EC 0.25,
added AB to get 1.8, funnily enough i ended up adding 30ml/10L AB which is my normal strength mix for flower

however this time ive been adding what i now think is a bit too much
cal and mag, plus giving the PK13/14 very early to try to cure the phosphorus problem which brought the 30ml AB up 2.1

pH came out 4.8 so i added rhizo to bring it to 5.8 (about 10ml/10L)
after adding rhizo and cannazym@25ml/10L the EC had gone up to 1.9,
the EC of my run-off was 2.3

Its interesting that you mention maybe drying out could cause the phosphorus lockout through precipitation with the cal... i let the tops of my pots dry out a little between waterings, canna seems to suggest very frequent watering if i follow their literature right

when i watered more i saw algae or white spots like some kind of mold appearing and fungus gnats seem to thrive. when i let the tops dry out these problems disappear. i still see the odd fungus gnat... dont think they would cause these kinds of symptoms tho?

how often do you water? do your feel the weight of your pots or run a scheduled irrigation?

Edited by greenmanalishi5, 23 May 2012 - 02:58 AM.

Yes, the Boost Accelerator is designed to be used throughout flowering. I find it to be rather expensive. To help cut the costs but maintain the effect I have found that applying a foliar spray program with this product is useful. In side-by-side tests done with molasses versus CannaBoost the plants that got the boost were noticeably more resinous and had a stronger smell and flavor. It is good stuff, I just don't use it anymore. Try using it in the reservoir every other feeding, and applying it as a foliar spray to the underside of the leaves just as the lights come on 2 or 3 days a week.

thanks man this sounds like an excellent way to use the boost without breaking the bank im gonna try this!

i dont know whether i can get the cal-mag plus or micro that you are using SCMC but i will have a look... you need something with the RO...

i can order advanced nutrients sensical...

........................... cal-mag plus ... Sensical Grow ... Sensical Bloom
Total Nitrogen (N) .. 2.0% ............. 4.0% ............... 3.0%
Calcium (Ca) ......... 3.2% ............. 5.0% ............... 3.2%
Magnesium (Mg) .... 1.2% ............. 0.6% ............... 0.9%
Iron (Fe) .............. 0.1% ............. 0.12% ............. ???

the bloom sensical has a profile similar to calmag plus, iron is listed in the ingredients but not listed as a percentage on the on the bloom label, so i dont think theres much iron in the bloom.

what do you think? any other good ones on the market? i was looking at humboldt nutrients a while back and considering some of their stuff... they have sea mag and sea cal i think

at the mo i only have canna cal and mag mono-nutrients, just knocked up a mix...

starting with RO at EC 0.08, added cal mag at 3:1 to get an EC 0.25,
added AB to get 1.8, funnily enough i ended up adding 30ml/10L AB which is my normal strength mix for flower

however this time ive been adding what i now think is a bit too much
cal and mag, plus giving the PK13/14 very early to try to cure the phosphorus problem which brought the 30ml AB up 2.1

pH came out 4.8 so i added rhizo to bring it to 5.8 (about 10ml/10L)
after adding rhizo and cannazym@25ml/10L the EC had gone up to 1.9,
the EC of my run-off was 2.3

Its interesting that you mention maybe drying out could cause the phosphorus lockout through precipitation with the cal... i let the tops dry out a little between waterings, canna seems to suggest very frequent watering if i follow their literature right

when i watered more i saw algae or white spots like some kind of mold appearing and fungus gnats seem to thrive. when i let the tops dry out these problems disappear. i still see the odd fungus gnat... dont think they would cause these kinds of symptoms tho?

how often do you water? do your feel the weight of your pots or run a scheduled irrigation?

Don't worry about picking up some new product to accommodate what you have already. I think you can work it out with what you got.

I have used the Humboldt SeaMag and was very unimpressed. It actually caused a dramatic slowing of vigor. I wouldn't use those products, but I do like the FlavorFul Fulvic Acid from Humdboldt Nutrients. I haven't used the SensiCal from Advanced Nutrients but typically the additives from that company are a little more expensive than their competitors.

Out here in California there are a lot of good options for nutrients and a thriving community of growers who share a lot of knowledge "offline." What I have been hearing most about recently, through the grapevine, is General Organics. I talk about it a lot on here but it seems everyone I talk to locally is familiar with the stuff and likes it. If you can track down some General Organics CaMg+ that would be a good organic source of a 5:1 ratio that you can add Epsom to when you need to boost the Mag level. What you have now is fine though, just think towards the future and consider your options. I think Canna is a good system if you want to do coco hydroponically.

Your runoff EC is fine in my eyes.

Letting the tops dry isn't that bad, there is still a fair amount of moisture present at the root zone. It is more the full blown dry outs that are an issue.

When a plant is young and building roots I water by weight and progressively increase the frequency. It is something a person has to get a feel for really. By the switch to flowering I am usually feeding daily. The idea is to use the right amount of coco for the size of the plant and root system so that you practically HAVE to water it frequently. Don't water more often than you have to, but I get the best growth rates when watering in the morning, once per day, and because the coco is ready to be watered and not because it is scheduled.

Honestly, I think this is being complicated out of all proportion. None of your problems have anything to do with half of the stuff being talked about here.

This is one of my biggest gripes with SCMC's advice. It's not that much of what he says is bad or harmful, some of it is actually good info.... but a lot of it is completely irrelevant to the problem imo, it's completely off track and rambling and you find yourself going off on a tangent. It's like every simple problem is a platform to talk about his whole philosophy on growing.

All I see above is three posts which have little or nothing to do with finding out what your problem is.

in my opinion when you have an issue you need to focus on finding what it is. You've got to cut through all the bullshit and ask the relevant questions. Then you'll arrive at your conclusion and your answer.
If you want to talk about new nutrients, or opinions on which pot size is best to use -and I actually disagree that you should restrict yourself to a pot which needs watering daily- then you can do that in your spare time.

Right now you have a problem, and mate, going off on a tangent about cal mag, precipitation, etc etc etc.... it's like going to the doctors surgery, showing him your problem, then talking about differing brands of microscope, prescription charges, national health.... At some point you've got to focus back on what the problem is and sort it.

One of the most important questions, which I should have asked already, is: Have you got any pictures of the whole plant?

Yet another attack against myself. This time he had decided that our discussion is "off topic" so he decided to post something completely off topic... Oh the irony.
As I understand it, you have a phosphorus deficiency. We figured that out fast. There can be several causes for a p deficiency, so it is important to discuss what the culprit could be. The issue we have is that the Canna system has you pretty locked in to their particular ratio. This is problematic and requires supplementation of PHosphorus without messing with the ratios too much. I am hoping you can avoid purchasing a new product but it was important to acknowledge the options of how you can get the phosphorus your plants need.
The discussion on the calcium products was a little tangent but related to the conversation and this is your thread man. Do whatever you desire.

Personally, I don't run canna nutrients anymore because I don't like their ratios. Usually not enough pk+mag in their base formula for bloom requiring excessive supplementation. I found the need for a phosphorus dominant product and for a potassium dominant product. In your case I think you stick to your guns, follow the instructions on the canna website for your nutrient lineup, and see what you get on their baseline. Obviously, if the Issue continues to progress then you'll want to boost the PK13/14 a ml per 4L. But, in the future you can use what you learn and record on this system to anticipate the deficiency before it appears (because you know your phenotypes needs on this nutrient profile) and to supplement it accordingly to avoid a loss of vigor the next time around.

Please don't let personal tirades, and outright unfounded hatred, detract from the point here. The problem is identified and we're talking shop on how to resolve it and maybe a few other tidbits of wisdom. Nothing here seems out of place other than the bad vibes certain individuals think will elevate their status.

Something else worth addressing that hasn't been is the environment. The high temp is a touch too high for an unenriched environment. Bring the daily high down around 25c and the low up around 21c. This provides a more stable growing environment than the serious deviance you currently have between day and night temps. Ventilation can be difficult but it is monumentally important to have a decent amount of control over your indoor growing environment.

The 19c night time temperature really isn't that terrible. What I would like to ensure is that the cool temperature is not impacting uptake at the root zone.

Source: http://www.tandfonli...904169409364742

There's more on the topic if you do an Internet search. I cannot say for certain if your temperature is too low, but if you can manage a few degrees at night, and less of a swing from high to low, that should all assist root health and uptake of your deficient element.

some more pics of whole plants...

This is a crazy situation!

Okay, starters. Definitely not enough light, especially for that height. The plant could probably use a transplanting if you can manage it.

Now for the other stuff.
I see magnesium, calcium, potassium, nitrogen, and phosphorus issues in different places throughout the plant. Boggling. Is this damage all recent and is any of it progressing?

There should be plenty of food, I cannot imagine this plant really needs that much more of what it has been getting. The issue I think is going on under the surface of the coco. Everything seems to be pointing to a root issue.

Transplanting up will help give them more room but it will not increase the amount of oxygen to the root zone. You will need to curtail your watering habits until the plant wants more frequent feedings or risk damaging the system.

I use organics and coco because I find that builds the most robust root systems capable of then building big flowers.

My suggestion, at this point, is to be cautious and not stress the plant more than is required. Today I would rinse the coco with a 1.2ish solution of A+B and rhizotonic. Nothing else. If the pH is low initially allow for up to 12 hours before you use it. Try to water just before lights out and get a good two or up to three liters to runoff.

Tomorrow, transplant to a planter at least 3x as large as what you are using now. Follow the program from the Canna website for your setup and keep good records in a journal for reflection down the road. Everyone has a few growing pains and learns from a mistake here and there. Don't jump to any one thing as a problem until the coco is fresh, the planter is the proper size, the lighting is more adequate, and the temperatures are more consistent.

Focus your energy on rebuilding a healthy root system, follow a baseline plan, keep a journal, and you will be rewarded.

This is a crazy situation!

Okay, starters. Definitely not enough light, especially for that height. The plant could probably use a transplanting if you can manage it...

its not under the light mate... its in another room for the pic there is plenty of light... new philips HPS

they are way bigger than i would have wanted, but problems with moving etc... so yes the pots are too small they should be 10L atmo i may have to go and get some more coco
its progressing but these are the 2 weediest ( excuse the pun ) plants i have, theyr now showing multiple problems not all of them are like that. this is new, think i damaged the roots with the high cal mag and PK mayb? i definitely need to cut the feed back... hopefully they wont all go this way i will be using the rhizo man

Edited by greenmanalishi5, 24 May 2012 - 01:30 AM.

Something else worth addressing that hasn't been is the environment. The high temp is a touch too high for an unenriched environment. Bring the daily high down around 25c and the low up around 21c. This provides a more stable growing environment than the serious deviance you currently have between day and night temps. Ventilation can be difficult but it is monumentally important to have a decent amount of control over your indoor growing environment.

The 19c night time temperature really isn't that terrible. What I would like to ensure is that the cool temperature is not impacting uptake at the root zone.

daytime is now 26 and night time 23... i have dimmers for my fans day temps will get higher tho might have to think about enrichment soon... thanks for all your input so far man