First Attempt With Coco - Deficiency?

Posted this in sick plants then realised you coco growers prolly have a better idea of what to do...

Got a C99 under 240w BlackStar LED and 130W 6500k CFL in coco.

Mix 60% coco / 25% Hydroton / 15% vermiculite

Hydro nutes + Rhizo + CalMax

Started at 1/4 strength nutes after 1 week of growth

See pictures below taken at 14 days since germination: Pics arn't great quality but the leaves are quite pale with prominent veins and one fan leaf has some spotting.

Just moved to 1/2 strength nutes yesterday cause I thought she was hungry, looks like N or Mg deficiency, but want some advice. Been paranoid about nute burn since trying out soil and having some probs.

PH is always 5.8 to 6.0

I'll try and take some better pics later today.

Edited by dickPound, 04 May 2012 - 05:52 AM.

Looks ok to me....
Just harvested a c-99 from female seeds...What an awesome plant to grow. Get ready to tie the branches up to support the heavy buds at about week 5 of flowering .
All the branches will have long massive cola's and this strain stretched about 2 feet after 6 weeks of veg before she finished. She will always look a little pale green, so don't get a mind set that she is under fed....Good luck.

Edited by colafarmer, 04 May 2012 - 10:47 AM.

Thanks cola, wondered if it was just a trait of the strain.

I'll get some more pics up so people can double check. New growth is looking healthy and green. Thinking scrog for this one. I fear the stretch, not alot of height in this space.

Maybe I spilled some nutes on the leaf, and that caused the brown spots. Certainly hasn't spread

Thanks cola, wondered if it was just a trait of the strain.

I'll get some more pics up so people can double check. New growth is looking healthy and green. Thinking scrog for this one. I fear the stretch, not alot of height in this space.

Maybe I spilled some nutes on the leaf, and that caused the brown spots. Certainly hasn't spread

Damn phones, can't edit.

Can you give some tips on feeding. Was she a heavy feeder? Nute sensitive? Need extra Cal or Mg or anything I should watch out for?

Used cns17 and Liquid Karma as base nutes and added Gravity and Ultra Snowstorm during flowering.
EC was 1.6 during veg and 1.8-2.0 during flowering with no signs of deficiencies and over feeding. Very tolerant strain
Supplemented with cal/mag during veg only.
I fluctuated my ph from 5.5-6.1 so plant uptakes nutes at all ph ranges with 5.8 as the main ph target.
Two weeks before harvest I flushed with Clearex and large amounts of water till the EC of the runoff EC matched the EC going in, then nothing but water and Gravity till harvest. Some molasses(for the carbs)will work in place of Gravity.

Shut down the lights 36 hours to ripen more before chopping. I think 48 hours would be better.
8 weeks to harvest but, think 9 weeks is more in line...

She's hungry mate. What EC are you running, and why are you using calmax?
There should be no need to add in additional elements if you're running a good brand of coco and a good brand of nutes, especially at this stage in the plant's life, and by adding it in some of your EC is accounted for by the calmax and not the base nutes which the plant needs.

In other words, keep it simple.

Buy a baby feed for this stage of growth, drop the supplements, and at that stage of life you should be feeding at 1.0-1.2 EC of one part one bottle simple as feck baby food and nothing else. Have a look at the basic coco guide on this page and you'll see exactly what I mean.

Everyone told me that coco needs additional cal and Mg so that why I'm adding it. Always use canna rhizo for root development during veg. I've upped the nutes to 1.0EC and the new growth is looking pretty good now, think maybe the strain is just a heavier feeder than I thought so in another week I'll up it again to about 1.5. also the EC is checked before I add sups, then I ph the whole deal to 5.8.

Thanks for all your help guys, think the prob was just me being a bit too cautious with the feed. I'll keep you updated and hopefully no more probs

That's the wrong way to feed mate. Have a look at the basic guide man and that'll show you what to feed and when. 1.0ec to 1.5 is a massive leap at this stage of growth and is not the way you should approach feeding. 0.2 increments are all you should ever need to keep you in line with the plant's needs at any stage of growth.

Coco doesn't need cal or mag supplementation unless the plants show you they do, which in my experience is hardly ever. It's a complete myth that calmag is needed for a healthy grow. If you do want to add it in later on, put it in at 0.2 on top of your base feeds.

If your EC is only 1.0, and some of that is being made up of cal & mag, then that's why your plants are a bit hungry. It's as simple as that.

If you started with a baby feed and fed at 1.0EC, you'd have perfectly healthy plants.
When you add in extra calcium and magnesium - two secondary macro nutes which should be in good supply from any good coco feed - at the expense of the base feed, you just throw it out of whack by taking away what the plant really needs.

It's not that your strain is a particularly heavy feeder; most strains will be on 1.0ec at that age. Like I say, have a look in on that guide and you'll see mine at the same stage and what they look like on 1.0ec of baby feed.

Look up formulex, or an equivalent starter feed, and try and have a bottle of that handy for the early stages of growth.


What's your background (tapwater) ec by the way, and are you including that in your ec values?

Edited by TheWatcher, 05 May 2012 - 01:36 PM.

I always take into account water EC and additional supplements when I work out EC. I'll look into Formulex for the next grow, bit late now.

I had a look at your other thread, great info in there will keep it in mind from now on. On the downside my EC meter shit itself yesterday so I've got a new one on order.

As long as I stay on top of my feeding and keep a close eye on her I'm not expecting any more issues.

Everyone told me that coco needs additional cal and Mg so that why I'm adding it. Always use canna rhizo for root development during veg. I've upped the nutes to 1.0EC and the new growth is looking pretty good now, think maybe the strain is just a heavier feeder than I thought so in another week I'll up it again to about 1.5. also the EC is checked before I add sups, then I ph the whole deal to 5.8.

Thanks for all your help guys, think the prob was just me being a bit too cautious with the feed. I'll keep you updated and hopefully no more probs

cal/mag are known issues with coco. Some people never have that issue but, the majority do...Is better to be safe than sorry and supplement with some cal/mag during veg only.
Your right about being cautious not to over feed. It is easier to fix a under feeding problem and less stressful on the plant. I would not go above 1.0 ec until the plant tells you it needs more and then only in small increments to reach a 1.6 ec at some point during veg and 1.8-2.0 during flowering stage.
Your roots are still developing and won't be able to consume all of the nutes and can lead to salt build up and nute burn. The amount of lighting also plays a big role here also.

The C-99 I grew was always showing a pale green and my EC was as high as 2.0 and had a nice yield.
Take a look at these pics(c99/kalishnikova) http://forum.grassci...co-pics-42.html. Both plants were grown in auto pots with the same feeding schedule/EC and you can see the difference in the foliage.

CF, the deep green of the kalishnikova in those pics is excess nitrogen.

K so I'm taking a bit of everything here. I'm switching to canna coco nutes will continue with the cal/Mg since it's here anyway. She is starting to look better with a higher EC.

I'm just going to use the canna coco feeding schedule from their website. My EC pen hasn't arrived yet so I'm entrusting my plant to the experts at Canna.

Will post some pics in the next few days. Bottom leaves are fucked but the rest is starting to look good again. She is actually starting to grow again. I'll take some clones in another week or so depending on how much she picks up by then.

Been fighting something since early veg...as indicated above. Have no idea what this is. First 3 pics from last week, other 3 from today. Just over 2 weeks in 12/12 at the moment.

Female Seeds C99
2x 240W BlackStar LED + 130W CFL
4" Centri + Phresh Filter
temps are a little low and fluctuate a bit 60-65ish
Humidity 50-60%
COCO/vermiculite/hydroton with Canna Coco nutes and all Canna additives
EC 1.5 - 1.7 w/ all additives right now, have tried higher and lower
PH 5.7-6.0

Tried, less nutes/more nutes/flushing/no cal mag/more cal mag/Epsom salts foliar feeding...Nothing seems to make any difference. Am currently hand watering with 20-30% run off. Doesn't seem to really be getting any worse, but it's not getting better.

Any ideas are much appreciated.

It looks like the problems have come and gone. The Epsom foliar has helped if you couldn't tell but the 1.7 EC is pretty strong. I'd recommend a mixture of 7.5ml/g a+b and 10ml/g rhizotonic for the rest of veg if you're using tap water with an EC under 0.4. A product I found to be indispensable in my canna rotation was Botanicare's Liquid Karma, as a kelp extract it is a little pricy, but it contains so much more that will help your plants deal with stress. I don't say this about many products but... I don't know how t works, I don't care how it works, but it does work as advertised. In a land of snake oil products it can be hard to find good stuff sometimes but I, personally, wouldn't use canna again without liquid karma. If everything else has failed and you're looking for a hail Mary in a bottle then this is really the only thing I can suggest in good conscience, if only to keep you from buying something less useful.

The likely cause here is probably a result of regular feedings to a large volume of coco that the roots hadn't hit yet. As you continued to refill this empty area of the coco with elements it retained more and more. Now that the roots have reached these portions of the media which are "hot" you're seeing the results of the excess in the burning of your leafs. It may be that your feeding strength was excessive in the past but fine now, so recommending any major changes is tough to do. By looking at the size of your plants I do think that a 1.3ish EC is probably more appropriate. What I can also suggest is that you alternate full strength and half strength feedings from here on out. Try to get a little extra runoff, like a few hundred ml extra, on the half strength days to make sure you keep the buildup to a minimum. Once the media is rinsed and you get on an alternating schedule you should see a lot of improvement. Add the LIquid Karma and I think you'll be fine through veg.

The transition to flowering. Now that is a different story.

Edited by SCMC, 18 June 2012 - 09:03 AM.

Thanks SCMC, I know you know you're stuff so that's exactly what I'm going to do. Alternate between full ~1.3EC and half that. Only thing is...it's already 2 weeks into flowering so if I should change something let me know. I'll see if I can source some liquid karma locally, but isn't it pretty much the same as Rhizo?

I use rain water @ 30ppm and strangely enough the tap water here is about the same, really good city water where I am

edit: nope no liquid karma locally, would have to get some off the net. How about Floralicious® Plus?

Edited by dickPound, 18 June 2012 - 10:53 AM.

Oh. Two weeks into flowering?

Still a 1.3ec running equal amounts of a+b and cannazym. It is probably something like 8ml/g of each. The Canna system is meant to be run as the nutrient calculator on their website dictates. I just find their EC suggestions to be on the upper end.

As I alluded to earlier the transition to flowering, especially the second and third weeks of bloom, can be problematic for many coco growers. The tendency is to continue feeding at the full strength used during vegetative growth. This amount of food is normally too much for a plant transitioning to flowering in coco, especially when considering that the coco has been retaining elements this whole time and maturing.

Really though, all you should need to do is run the canna products at the proper EC with alternating strengths once the buildup is gone. I start at a 1.2ec at the first day of 12/12 and increase my pk levels a little every week to bring the EC up by 0.1. Start by adding more cannazym up to 12ml/g, and when you top out on that you can then start adding in a little pk13/14 to keep the solution moving forwards. By the 6th week of flowering I am running about a 1.8ec.

For your plant at this point a 1.3 to 1.4ec is where to aim and you can bring that up to a 1.5 around the 25th day of flowering.

If you cannot get the Liquid Karma locally then don't worry about it. I find it odd that you cannot get it locally... But I also live in cannabis heaven and there are a solid 5 hydro stores within 10 minutes of me. The reason I suggest it, and nothing else, is because nothing else works as well. The product is very different from the rhizotonic and I think that maybe you could consider adding it to your next canna coco grow and order it online.

im not sure if you ever mentioned what brand of coco you are using

shot in the dark, but that may be your problem

im using Canna atm and im loving it

i cant say my plants have "never looked better" cuz they never really looked like shit...... but....... they have a "vibrant" look to them since i switched to canna about a month ago

atm im about 2weeks into flower give or take and im running 12ml of a & b, 2ml rhizotonic, 3ml GO cal/mag and my ec is hanging right around 1.7-1.8

i can post a couple pics if you wanna see em

I've dropped the EC and will alternate feeding's between 1.3EC and ~half that, with a little extra PK each week.

Thanks for the picture offer tothehead, maybe just 1 or 2, cause if I start comparing your sexy plants to my sick little baby I'll get all depressed ;P I used Nutrifield Coco for this grow, flushed the hell out of it and then prep'd with very low dose nutes and some rhizo before I put my seedling in it. Should be fine in that respect. For now I'll follow the SCMC guide to better growing stated above and hope for the best.

Hydro stores here are few and far between so, I'll order some Karma online and if it gets here any time soon I'll throw that into the mix.

The prob could have come from over feeding, used Canna heavy feeding schedule for awhile cause my water has almost no EC from the tap 0.01EC same with my rain water... pretty much doesn't even register on the EC meter. Adding Cal Mag and all the Canna additives to that probably just made the mix way too hot.

If I get my Canna a+b w/ additives to 1.3EC for now I'll see if that improves things. Was going to use some Ozi Tonic Monster Bud, but at the recommended dose it brings my mix up from 1.3EC to about 3EC. Even tho it doesn't have any NPK I guess I should leave that one alone for now.

Edited by dickPound, 19 June 2012 - 03:09 AM.

Hey DP, I just want to add a lil bit of advise/tips to what the above posters(all of them)have stated..If in doubt, always (imhe) go back to basics..Don't start trying to correct a problem by adding 'additives' to your mix..It's all about giving the girls a proper diet(NPK) at the proper ratios, along with the rest of the essentials..
As mentioned above, if you give your girls the right diet at proper EC at that stage, they'll respond..However if you mix in non-essential additive(s), that will throw your NPK ratios out-of-wack, then this can/will only hurt your babes..
Once you've dialed them in, then IF you MUST, by all means add them in..But just do it by calculating the base+additives to keep your ratios within correct levels..
You asked about FP(Floralacius+), yes it's a very similar product as LK..So knowing that I'd pick that up locally and not special-order LK for now..Again IF-YOU-MUST..
Good luck!..

Thanks for advice cheecha, been doing some reading on UK forums...

Think I worked out what the prob was all along. I'm using auto pots, gravity feed bottom feeders. Its advised to top feed for at least 2 - 3 weeks when you transplant clones or seedlings into it. I never did that and have seen some pics of plants where the grower made the same mistake...similar probs to mine. That combined with my hot nute mix seems to be what the prob is.

I love these pots so I don't want to stop using them. I have hand watered for the last week with an alternating 1.3/0.8 solution which seems to be helping. Now I'm just going to put it back in the auto feeder and set the EC @ 1.3 and see what happens.

I'm now just following the Canna normal feeding guide which gives me a total EC of 1.3 - 1.4 @ 5.8PH
Canna a+b @ 2.7ml per litre
Cannazym @ 2.5ml per litre
Rhizotonic @ 4ml per litre (drop this to 1ml once the stress has faded)
Cannaboost @ 2ml per litre

No more calmag, boosters or epsom salts at this point. Just strict Canna formula.

These pots are big in the UK for coco growers and they seem to use them over there with great success. I never thought I'd say this but thank god for the British. This is the site for the pots if anyone is interested Hydrotray Single 12" | Products | Autopot Systems

Edited by dickPound, 21 June 2012 - 03:41 AM.