A Guide to Meditation

[Androgenicx]

There are various, various, various different seemingly illumined masters, and they all seem to have one thing in common - the truth of one, but they all have differing views on the subtleties.

Maharshi says the fastest method is to follow the "I", and he says thoughts still arise. Nithyananda says there is no fastest method, each person will find a method suited for him that is the fastest, and that upon enlightenment all thoughts have ceased, and that there is only vision and the spontaneous fulfilment of that vision. As in the video I presented, the nature of thought is to not be present - to be either in the illusionary future, or be in the past - the presence of thought indicates the "not completely here" which is characteristic of unenlightenment. Enlightenment is self mastery to the fullest, Buddha also said "no mind no problem", and in the Buddhism the idea of the man taming the elephant and the monkey in quite pervading. If one is fully grounded in divinity everywhere, in divinity now, and sees perfectness in everything, whence arise thought - the thought that does NOT see perfectness in what is and therefore exists as a reference to the past or to the imaginary future?

Lahiri Mahasaya, Sri Yukteshwar, Yoganand, and that whole Lineage say that Kriya Yoga is the fastest route to enlightenment. It has been said by the Buddha that there is no soul, and upon the death of a realized master, nothing is left - reincarnation and such and such are impossible. Yet there are hundreds and thousands of accounts in this lineage, and amongst the disciples of it, where they have seen flesh and blood apparitions of Mahavatar Babaji, who is a "paramukta" according the the Upanishads, a realized soul who has mastery over even death if he so chooses - How did this avatar re-incarnate if there can be no re-incarnation after realization? Yukteshar reportedly appeared to Yoganand in flesh and blood after his death, and related that he was incarnated on an astral plane and was helping people who were more spiritually developed and had overcome their bondage to incarnation on Earth, but were not fully liberated yet. Yukteshwar was reported to be a center around which countless miracles occured, and was reported to be in communion with the "divine" at all times - a jivanmukta - how then was he re-incarnated and not liberated fully?

The Buddha incorporated little yoga or "scientific" approach to enlightenment as has been transcribed by the Yoga Sutras and by subsequent "reintroductions" of various techniques of Yoga, and uses wisdom, meditation, sunnata, and other techniques. To most, he was undoubtably a liberated being, to most - Maharshi was too, to most, Babaji, Lahiri and Yukteshwar were as well. To me, and many, Nithyananda is as well.

Who is there to say which master is enlightened and which teaching is better or worse, faster or slower? They all have notable contradictions in their teachings. Prana energy and chakras are very noticeably and intimately related with thought and consciousness - meditation and energization of any particular chakra in the more intuitively sensitive practioner reveals marked and specific alterations in consciousness - the heart chakra when meditated upon and energized strongly suddenly brings a deep, causeless feeling of compassion and connection in the practioner, the same with the crown chakra suddenly brings a connection to formless divinity behind and before the materializations that one feels compassionate for through the heart chakra, and bodily presence starts diminishing. Through breath yoga, bhastrika and others, one can engage in 30 minutes of strong prana regulation from breathing, and find a natural state of extreme calm and low thought-activity for awhile after. How come then, Buddhism does not overtly talk about these sources of consciousness and include them in their practice? Subtle concepts and states of conception or non-conception or realization can only be discovered when one is ready - what decides whether one is ready or not? Karma and subtle imprints, as well as the latent level of thought and purity in the prana and chakras. Since prana is in many ways what undersees consciousness, pranayam and breath practices and charka meditation are obvious answers to accellerate ones spiritual progress greatly - yet many traditions such as Maharshi's and in Buddhism are almost completely inexpressive of their use and importance.

Logical deduction of thought as the main culprit to not seeing the true nature follows that to see true nature peerlessly, thoughts must cease. One may argue that identification with thoughts only must cease - if the mind is still even producing thoughts, whether one chooses to acknowledge them or not can allow for great tranquility, but even when one does not follow the flight of a bird, birds flying in the sky still obscure the peerless vision of the sky. Maharshi himself said, "when the mind is focused on the self, the mind is absorbed in THAT. THAT is tapas". If the mind is fully absorbed, whence arise thought? It is contradictory. Again, logical deduction cannot begin to encapsulate the truth - but if enlightenment is a singular, absolute experience, it seems to me far more rational and in alignment with what one has learned about the nature of the mind, thought, and consciousness, that Nithyananda's statement that "all chatter ceases completely, there is only spontaneous expression of vision" alludes to the most final, permanent experience, and that states that do not have this quality are possibly a few notches away from it. Although this may be incorrect as well, perhaps enlightenment is an absolute union and experience but the symptoms along with the knowledge of how to reach there both differ fron realized person to realized person.

I have personally, at the age of 14 with no prior concept of spirituality or god or any such thing, and no biases or expectations, felt something different, peaceful, and powerful in the presence of Nithyananda. He has reportedly given direct experiences of samadhi to many, just as many seemed to have experienced by simply looking into Maharshis eyes. In my experience and many's, he is a liberated being - there was even astrological scripture, once at birth and once later from pre-written akashic records (written tens of years before his birth - verifiable by the fact that the leaves that they were written on and saved inside the temple could only be written on when it is fresh, they were dry beyond years) that predicted that he, not of any saintly descendency, but to a normal middle class family not overinvolved in god, that he would become a Paramhamsa or liberated one. The astrologer at his birth further predicted that having read this astrology, his purpose was fulfilled, and that he would die in 21 days. He died on the 21st day. This being is to many and to me very apparently liberated, and he says all thought has ceased since the moment that the realization fully occured. There is scientific evidence, although not fully useful to the phenomena we are discussing, that he has fully control over his states and his brain and can pass into the breathless state at will - considered by many masters and teachers to be the sign of a real master. Who is to say that Maharshi was enlightened and that he is not and is therefore wrong?

There are tens and tens of different approaches, tens and tens of different interpretations and ideas about the ideal path, tens and tens of subtle differences in the teachings. Enlightenment is absolute experience, not absolute knowledge.

"I think really the best direction would be for us to post what we know"

My friend, neither of us know anything. To suggest that anything worth anything is knowable and transmitable in words is silly

"I've studied enlightenment for over 25 years" My friend, surely you are above the assumption that study of realization has absolutely anything to do with realization itself



My posts do not denounce anything, and always maintain that there are various different, seemingly contradictory paths - for paths are not illumined but are passage to illumination, and are therefore subject to all the inconsistencies of that which is not the illumined truth. It maintains that one person may need no pranayam, no meditation after a point, no formal practice to find "it". Another might find the strict following of a particular path or yoga or meditation the only and best way for him. A third, like myself, might find it best to pick and pull the sugar from all that he encounters and leave what, to him, is sand, and form his own nectar to drink and bring him to "it".

You said that "after a point, meditation is sickness", I simply pointed out that it may be so, but is not necessarily so. I have not once fully contradicted or denounced anything, yet from your side some of my ideas have been denounced as contradictory to your specific path - the stateless state, non-conceptuality - whatever, it is beyond me to attempt to write for I don't think I have grasped and entered the state you appear to have and cannot even begin to relate it in words. Your posts disclude mine, mine seem to include yours. Wherein this argument of two sides is relatively peerless non-contradiction occuring, for I am not in argument, yet you appear to be.

Like always, I maintain I write not to respond to you, but to keep my responses sovereign without a final statement from your side that fully may denounce them to any given seeker reading this thread. I maintain, that many will find your perspective and the perspective and path that you represent more sensible to them and will find fruit in it, many will find it in the nature of the posts that I have had to offer.

Again, I maintain, Enlightenment is absolute experience, not absolute knowledge - the paths and ideas are very many, and their subtle contradictions even more.

Edit: You go ahead with talking about the Tantric path, I know little really about it except that it is the "other side of the coin" in many ways and is so mainly to break the bridges of duality that might pull one seeker into an illusion of "goodness" and bring them back into duality. I am interested in what you have to offer about it myself, the general internet is populated mostly by Tantric Sex and superficial stuff when one searches on "Tantra"

Edit: While pondering what enlightenment really is - I realized a profound difference in approach and idea between alot of traditional hinduism, yogic approaches, etc, and some originally hindu and buddhist approaches - The yogic approach and the approach of Lahiri and Yoganand, Patanjali is to expand the consciousness unto the infinite - "god experience". All practices are aimed at purification of the self and of karma, and the attempt to expand onesself unto the infinite. Buddhist and many other approaches that do not even involve the concept of "God" or "universal consciousness" such as Zen, approach not to expand the consciousness and "purify" the self, but the dissolve the self and all its ideas and its existence completely. When the self no longer exists, all that is left is everything, and identity assumes with everything...the infinite and nothingness. It is the going to the root of the seat of "self" and unseating it completely. It is not the cultivation of compassion or this or that, it is the uncultivation of everything - and whence this occurs all that is left is compassion and love and infinity etc etc. Andrew Cohen says this well:

"... The most challenging matter for the seeker of enlightenment is learning what it means to be nobody. Many think they want to be enlightened but actually without realizing it they only aspire to be better people. Better means powerful, wise, compassionate, fearless.

"To be enlightened means that the very centre falls away and we find ourselves standing nowhere in the middle of everything with nothing to hold on to -- including power, wisdom, compassion and courage.

"How many women have I seen who claimed they wanted to be free while at the same time tenaciously holding on to the idea of being a saint or a good person, deeply terrified of being nobody?

As for me, I feel the latter is true liberation - where the self dissolves completely, which is why I do not pray, do not believe in "god" or in "cultivating" this or that, why I prefer objectless meditation and "simply doing nothing" in an attempt to unravel the false notion of self, rather than one-pointedness meditation that involves samadhi and expansion of consciousness - temporarily - unto the infinite. I feel that the experience is not a samadhi or a "union with god", but "tatvam asi" "that art thou" - losing the "I" and finding the "all" - always.

I feel that the "god" and "samadhi" and "kriya approach" is incomplete upon nirvakalpa samadhi or the at-will union with divinity. Yukteshwar, Lahiri, and all the avatars - even Babaji, stop at this point and assume it to be enlightenment, forever "channeling" the divine, expressing "his will", but never losing their own identity of "atman" and realizing that "that art thou". This is not to say that this approach does not produce enlightenment - many of the past have achieved it - upon first aligning their beings wholly with the concept and experience of god, samadhi etc, and then realizing that they ARE that which they think they need to go into samadhi to come into union with, and at this point their identity has been cultivated to a level where it is very trodden and humble, and fully believing that god is supreme and all and that there is nothing else - and so are more easily able to drop the "I" and become the "all". The other approach as taken by zen, buddhism, etc, directly goes to the heart of this by starting to unravel the self bit by bit - with this "god" and this and that need to be dropped - as they are in the final stage of the true yogic approach as well, and at some point the self will unravel completely and reveal nothing to cling onto - all that then shall be left is identity with the all.

I feel in conclusion that those who talk about "union" with god through samadhi exclusively, and those who re-incarnate and talk of god as "him", such as Mahavatar Babaji, Yoganand, Sri Yukteshwar, were god-realized men, but not enlightened - for enlightenment is not the realization of god, but the full realization that one IS god.

Nevertheless, I feel that much can be taken in form of aid from pranayam and yoga even on the path to dissolve the self, for the glue which binds the layers of the self is thought - and this glue can be greatly loosened and weakened by working on the prana itself.

EDIT: Though the question arises, why is "full enlightenment" - the dissolution of the self which ends suffering because all suffering is due to attempting to hold on to a static identity, and which liberates from further rebirth, better or more desirable than the "lesser" enlightenment as known to beings who still possess a seperate identity, but can pass into nirvakalpa samadhi at any time and feel fully blissful? In this case the self will keep reincarnating - yes, but upon achieving these "high yogic states", one may consciously re-incarnated as highly spiritually developed and able to achieve nirvakalpa samadhi almost right off the bat again...Why dissolve the self and have no further reincarnation when one could feel blissful at will in samadhi and yogicly control ones incarnations?

Perhaps the bliss of "I am that" where the self dissolves is far great and far more liberating than the state of nirvakalpa samadhi itself..?

[bkadoctaj]

The quickest path to nobody is suicide. Now, who can make you go through with it?

[Androgenicx]

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

The quickest path to nobody is suicide. Now, who can make you go through with it?

One can assume this - but eastern philosophy that appears to be "right" so far in terms of what one can experience by following what they "know" in terms of meditations, wisdoms, and experiential understanding, says that suicide only kills the body, not the self - and that you will re-incarnate, and possibly in a less favorable condition due to the cause and effect result of your actions. One also observes that in sleep, the body lives, while this "I" seems to die - is then the body the same as the "I", and will it also dissolve upon death? It seems to appear not.

It is also far more fearful for most who commit suicide to kill ones identity completely than to kill the body - why, how come? Is there some intuitive unsaid that knows that despite death, only the circumstances will die but the "I" that it always refuses to drop will live on?

In the light of these wisdoms, if one chooses to acknowledge them, suicide is a pointless mistake that will just throw "you" back a few spaces on the inevitable path, and is therefore not a choice.

[bkadoctaj]

Originally Posted by Androgenicx

One can assume this - but eastern philosophy that appears to be "right" so far in terms of what one can experience by following what they "know" in terms of meditations, wisdoms, and experiential understanding, says that suicide only kills the body, not the self - and that you will re-incarnate, and possibly in a less favorable condition due to the cause and effect result of your actions. One also observes that in sleep, the body lives, while this "I" seems to die - is then the body the same as the "I", and will it also dissolve upon death? It seems to appear not.

"You" die and come back and tell me exactly what happens. Otherwise, you do not know, as you suggested to MelT earlier in this thread.

What point can there be in hiding behind a wall of so-called "Eastern philosophy"? - that is oversimplification of an inadequacy.

It is also far more fearful for most who commit suicide to kill ones identity completely than to kill the body - why, how come? Is there some intuitive unsaid that knows that despite death, only the circumstances will die but the "I" that it always refuses to drop will live on?

Oh, the unreal "I" that we say fears? And just how easy do you suggest it is to be "nobody"? Easier than suicide? Personally, I don't believe that invoking fear (an emotion, or state of being a "nobody" can turn off at will) takes us closer to your view.

In the light of these wisdoms, if one chooses to acknowledge them, suicide is a pointless mistake that will just throw "you" back a few spaces on the inevitable path, and is therefore not a choice.

In light of all these wisdoms, it would be a travesty to be led away from one's heart if that is what matters most simply by fair-sounding words.

The heart speaks without words, listens without ears, knows without senses, truly.

[Androgenicx]

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

What point can there be in hiding behind a wall of so-called "Eastern philosophy"? - that is oversimplification of an inadequacy.

If we were not hiding behind some wall, we would be enlightened. All here in this thread are hiding behind some wall. Eastern philosophy has thus brought about most sense so far in the chaos of this life, and hence I put faith in its answers and its path - which involves suicide as a step back.

As for the rest of your post, might be because I am just coming down from a DMT trip, I do not understand head or tail of it. What is heart? How do you what the heart speaks? What exactly are you talking about and how is it relevant to this topic? Please expound

[bkadoctaj]

Originally Posted by Androgenicx

If we were not hiding behind some wall, we would be enlightened. All here in this thread are hiding behind some wall. Eastern philosophy has thus brought about most sense so far in the chaos of this life, and hence I put faith in its answers and its path - which involves suicide as a step back.

As for the rest of your post, might be because I am just coming down from a DMT trip, I do not understand head or tail of it. What is heart? How do you what the heart speaks? What exactly are you talking about and how is it relevant to this topic? Please expound

Please don't tell me you follow "Eastern philosophy" when it contradicts its own message. You're more free than that, right? You don't need cues for what you say.

Because I can only really know (in the sense that knowing is personal, not objective) what is within, to bring what is far and make it what is near is possible only by first finding the center of myself. Metaphorically, I understand it cannot be my "mind" (now in the Western sense, which separates it from the heart) which analyzes the world of sensation and experience - often considered the superficial realm. I and the things I analyze have the same origin! Unknown in its potential, infinite in its power, unmeasured in its apparent labeled names - this origin is as purely virtuous as the heart. The heart gives meaning, the heart still beats whether the mind believes it controls this beating or whether the mind is too feeble to detect this essence of life in transformation. The mind translates the heart's essence into words. But what good are words, if to you they are nothing but words?

[MelT]

You say, ""I've studied enlightenment for over 25 years" My friend, surely you are above the assumption that study of realization has absolutely anything to do with realization itself "

Of course - but this would imply that what I know is based purely on intellectual assumptions and study, when it's based on direct experience.

You have your own path and beliefs and I really don't want to try to stand in your way. We've had our debate, let's agree to differ and go on with the thread for the benefit of others



MelT

[oldskoolgrower]

A lot of words to talk about something as simple as silencing the mind. One cannot really 'study' the search for enlightenment. A well known koan comes to mind:

'Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.

Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.

The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"

"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"'

[Androgenicx]

Originally Posted by oldskoolgrower

A lot of words to talk about something as simple as silencing the mind. One cannot really 'study' the search for enlightenment. A well known koan comes to mind:

'Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.

Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.

The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"

"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"'

How does one empty the cup? One can try, over and over again, but one finds that the very act of surrendering onesself and ones identity is next to impossible.

I had the most intense experience of my life so far on a DMT trip an hour ago.

So far all my meditation, all my "peace", all my "bliss", was ME having bliss. Was ME having peace. Thinking is going down, static agenda and identity "I am this or I am that" is going away, but being replaced by another concept "I am neither this nor that" - which is a concept in itself.

I have had what I thought were "god" experiences, through meditation or otherwise - where i would suddenly have a large flood of endorphins/seratonin, see white and be consumed by bliss for a few seconds, and there would be "no mind". It was still ME however, FEELING blissful. I thought these were "god" experiences.

On a high dose of DMT, I surrendered completely to all thoughts, all identity, all everything, to consciousness itself, realized every second that in the form of a "formed thought" with human language in it, or otherwise, I was always trying to be in control. Trying to "get" enlightenment. I was sick of all the search, all the seeking. All that seeking has EVER brought, EVER, was a feeling that "now this will do the trick", and then it has NEVER, EVER done the trick. It was giving up...but not on any concept, not on any person, not on the idea of life - but giving up utterly, inexplicably, just - thats it i dont care about life, death, consciousness, observing consciousness, i dont care to kill myself, i dont care to try to live, I dont care to try to seek, nor "try" to be in the moment. As long as you "try", existence waits patiently. As soon as you stop trying - not consciously "stop trying" - which is an attempt in itself - but when you come to a point where you are sick of trying and realize that your trying will never take you anywhere and never has - then a spontaneous, choiceless surrender occurs.

I realized today that I cannot get enlightenment. It is laughable now to even think that "I" can get enlightenment - it is infinitely more vast a force, superconsciousness, for my petty self to possess or "have".

This was the first instance of aware ego death. Not the cessation of the usual sense of identity, not the temporary suspension of an active ego as occurs during meditation when the mind goes silent, but an inexplicable ego death that cannot be put into words.

Everything I have experienced so far I thought were glimpses of infinity, I dont even care what they were anymore. I could vaguely verbalize them and write them down for people to read, and I used to question silently "they say that the experience cannot be explained...i cant explain it exactly but quite well..perhaps I am the first to have writing skills and communicative abilities that are good enough to express it". HA. I was ignorant, blind, clueless - not my fault - but I was. This cannot be worded, cannot be expressed.

It was not ME expanding into some form of consciousness that enveloped the room. It was not some consciousness coming into me. I don't know what went where or what happened how, I don't care - all I know was there was bliss. Not me experiencing bliss, nor bliss consuming me - there was no me to experience bliss...but there was bliss beyond bliss nonetheless! For the first time I vaguely felt alive in everything around me, in my dogs in the room. But it wasn't ME feeling alive in them! It was just LIFE! Everywhere! I just didn't exist! Yet something experienced it...AAAAH, words cannot express!

On the comedown immediately after the "Experience"..although there was noone there to "experience" it, I felt and realized profoundly how all existence everywhere around you is all the time pulling hard and just WAITING for you to come to it. Its THERE for you, EVERY second, pulling..pulling..all we must do is surrender completely and wholly. All the work, meditation, yoga, is not for getting enlightenment - it is impossible for "YOU" to get "IT" - all the work is for unwrapping your identity and clearing your consciousness and energy, expanding your consciousness latently by increasing the energy, so as to be able to surrender fully and completely and become this - it is simply not innately biologically possible for most to experience it off the bat - it is too intense..intense is not even a word..this is the most intense thing there is, how can the word intense apply to something that has no greater? One has to work to make ones consciousness and energy channels capable of it.

I was ignorant, I am clueless, the steps on how to meditate are fairly accurate, apart from that I take back all that I have professed as knowledge or advice in the form of my ego-stroking articulate posts on this forum for the last year or so. I know nothing, I want to know nothing - I am sorry for my posts, they were complete garbage.

Not a drug induced stupor - DMT doesn't do that - its not simply the flood of seratonins, though I am sure that happens to - it is an unnameable, unquantifiable, inexpressible cognitive shift...my god I have been blind.

I love you all, take care.

Edit: Right now the after effects on my consciousness are that I feel worthless back in this petty "self" - not in a "i suck" kinda way, but "this sucks". Theres a deep drive and restless longing to be back there and never come back...this has sealed the deal and fortified my decision to return to india and find this once and for all...Such a journey, involving wanting to find it so badly, and having to come to a point where I dont want it at all anymore to find it again...what a painful paradox, but so worth it when it occurs.

[oldskoolgrower]

Some people have a harder time than others 'emptying their cup'. There is really no secret method; it just is. Perhaps after 30 years I take it for granted that it's actually an easy thing to do.

Meditation is the cesastion of conscious thought. It doesn't take dozens of paragraphs to discuss it. Action is better than words in these cases.

[Androgenicx]

Originally Posted by oldskoolgrower

Some people have a harder time than others 'emptying their cup'. There is really no secret method; it just is. Perhaps after 30 years I take it for granted that it's actually an easy thing to do.

Meditation is the cesastion of conscious thought. It doesn't take dozens of paragraphs to discuss it. Action is better than words in these cases.

The goal of spirituality/meditation is to cease conscious thought, theres various methods, and theres energy meditations and insight meditation that does not revolve around complete cessation of thought but lending awareness to the subject at hand.

Action is better than words for he who is doing it, for those who have never done it some guidance - some vague path is helpful, although useless to make the "jump" to thoughtlessness - this can only be discovered on ones own.

What happens when you empty your cup? Im asking you for your specific experience

[oldskoolgrower]

I can hear the crickets singing the praises of macaroni and cheese.

^^ That makes about as much sense as any other words would. How does one describe that which is without description?

[Androgenicx]

Originally Posted by oldskoolgrower

I can hear the crickets singing the praises of macaroni and cheese.

^^ That makes about as much sense as any other words would. How does one describe that which is without description?

One can always compile some vague, almost useless words to try to point towards the experience - which is what all spirituality has done since time. Zen is the only one that seeks to go to the heart without talk, without words, without anything, short circuiting the intellect with gibberish and with senseless phrases and with koans. This is a very powerful, very direct method, that "points to the heart of buddha nature" as Bodhidharma said, but it isn't the only, and certainly isnt the only that has resulted in meditative experiences and enlightenment.

One could make vague statements such as "there is no identity, no conscious thought, no recognition of any familiarity or unfamiliarity to anything external or internal. There is just inexplicable vacancy". Many have said something along this line to attempt to describe the neutral, thoughtless state.

These have been my "glimpses" during meditation before. Just vacancy, emptiness. I just had an experience that was far more inexplicable than the glimpses I had before - as painfully and uselessly described in the previous post. There isnt just "one state", else everyone who finds the meditative state where there is no conscious identification or thought would be enlightened.

[bkadoctaj]

Originally Posted by Androgenicx

How does one empty the cup? One can try, over and over again, but one finds that the very act of surrendering onesself and ones identity is next to impossible.

I had the most intense experience of my life so far on a DMT trip an hour ago.

So far all my meditation, all my "peace", all my "bliss", was ME having bliss. Was ME having peace. Thinking is going down, static agenda and identity "I am this or I am that" is going away, but being replaced by another concept "I am neither this nor that" - which is a concept in itself.

I have had what I thought were "god" experiences, through meditation or otherwise - where i would suddenly have a large flood of endorphins/seratonin, see white and be consumed by bliss for a few seconds, and there would be "no mind". It was still ME however, FEELING blissful. I thought these were "god" experiences.

On a high dose of DMT, I surrendered completely to all thoughts, all identity, all everything, to consciousness itself, realized every second that in the form of a "formed thought" with human language in it, or otherwise, I was always trying to be in control. Trying to "get" enlightenment. I was sick of all the search, all the seeking. All that seeking has EVER brought, EVER, was a feeling that "now this will do the trick", and then it has NEVER, EVER done the trick. It was giving up...but not on any concept, not on any person, not on the idea of life - but giving up utterly, inexplicably, just - thats it i dont care about life, death, consciousness, observing consciousness, i dont care to kill myself, i dont care to try to live, I dont care to try to seek, nor "try" to be in the moment. As long as you "try", existence waits patiently. As soon as you stop trying - not consciously "stop trying" - which is an attempt in itself - but when you come to a point where you are sick of trying and realize that your trying will never take you anywhere and never has - then a spontaneous, choiceless surrender occurs.

I realized today that I cannot get enlightenment. It is laughable now to even think that "I" can get enlightenment - it is infinitely more vast a force, superconsciousness, for my petty self to possess or "have".

This was the first instance of aware ego death. Not the cessation of the usual sense of identity, not the temporary suspension of an active ego as occurs during meditation when the mind goes silent, but an inexplicable ego death that cannot be put into words.

Everything I have experienced so far I thought were glimpses of infinity, I dont even care what they were anymore. I could vaguely verbalize them and write them down for people to read, and I used to question silently "they say that the experience cannot be explained...i cant explain it exactly but quite well..perhaps I am the first to have writing skills and communicative abilities that are good enough to express it". HA. I was ignorant, blind, clueless - not my fault - but I was. This cannot be worded, cannot be expressed.

It was not ME expanding into some form of consciousness that enveloped the room. It was not some consciousness coming into me. I don't know what went where or what happened how, I don't care - all I know was there was bliss. Not me experiencing bliss, nor bliss consuming me - there was no me to experience bliss...but there was bliss beyond bliss nonetheless! For the first time I vaguely felt alive in everything around me, in my dogs in the room. But it wasn't ME feeling alive in them! It was just LIFE! Everywhere! I just didn't exist! Yet something experienced it...AAAAH, words cannot express!

On the comedown immediately after the "Experience"..although there was noone there to "experience" it, I felt and realized profoundly how all existence everywhere around you is all the time pulling hard and just WAITING for you to come to it. Its THERE for you, EVERY second, pulling..pulling..all we must do is surrender completely and wholly. All the work, meditation, yoga, is not for getting enlightenment - it is impossible for "YOU" to get "IT" - all the work is for unwrapping your identity and clearing your consciousness and energy, expanding your consciousness latently by increasing the energy, so as to be able to surrender fully and completely and become this - it is simply not innately biologically possible for most to experience it off the bat - it is too intense..intense is not even a word..this is the most intense thing there is, how can the word intense apply to something that has no greater? One has to work to make ones consciousness and energy channels capable of it.

I was ignorant, I am clueless, the steps on how to meditate are fairly accurate, apart from that I take back all that I have professed as knowledge or advice in the form of my ego-stroking articulate posts on this forum for the last year or so. I know nothing, I want to know nothing - I am sorry for my posts, they were complete garbage.

Not a drug induced stupor - DMT doesn't do that - its not simply the flood of seratonins, though I am sure that happens to - it is an unnameable, unquantifiable, inexpressible cognitive shift...my god I have been blind.

I love you all, take care.

Edit: Right now the after effects on my consciousness are that I feel worthless back in this petty "self" - not in a "i suck" kinda way, but "this sucks". Theres a deep drive and restless longing to be back there and never come back...this has sealed the deal and fortified my decision to return to india and find this once and for all...Such a journey, involving wanting to find it so badly, and having to come to a point where I dont want it at all anymore to find it again...what a painful paradox, but so worth it when it occurs.

Thank you for sharing this experience with us. I speak for myself when I say I'm humbled to be part of a community with amazing people like you - and it's not just on Grasscity, it's in my human heart.

[oldskoolgrower]

Originally Posted by Androgenicx

One can always compile some vague, almost useless words to try to point towards the experience - which is what all spirituality has done since time. Zen is the only one that seeks to go to the heart without talk, without words, without anything, short circuiting the intellect with gibberish and with senseless phrases and with koans. This is a very powerful, very direct method, that "points to the heart of buddha nature" as Bodhidharma said, but it isn't the only, and certainly isnt the only that has resulted in meditative experiences and enlightenment.

One could make vague statements such as "there is no identity, no conscious thought, no recognition of any familiarity or unfamiliarity to anything external or internal. There is just inexplicable vacancy". Many have said something along this line to attempt to describe the neutral, thoughtless state.

These have been my "glimpses" during meditation before. Just vacancy, emptiness. I just had an experience that was far more inexplicable than the glimpses I had before - as painfully and uselessly described in the previous post. There isn't just "one state", else everyone who finds the meditative state where there is no conscious identification or thought would be enlightened.

I am guilty as charged for my aversion to textual description. My first exposure to meditation was in conjunction with my early martial arts training, and that was all Zen. Decades later, while I have travelled many roads and experienced many things I am still reticent to try to put them into language that ultimately loses 90% of the 'meaning' of what I would like to convey.

Here is a brief attempt. When I attain that state there is nothing and everything at the same time. Satori is not bliss as some would have it, though the first time one gets to that place that is often the impression one takes away. In many ways it is both blissful and terrifying at the same time. When someone first experiences the 'death' of the ego it can be very dangerous if they are not well grounded spiritually. One is open to everything in one's subconscious as one travels through that phase before the mind is truly silent and one can experience the 'truth' (I am rather averse to that term because truth is often quite subjective) that everything there has ever been, is, or will be is all part of the same thing.