A Guide to Meditation

[MelT]

This thread is a great resource Androgenix. Are you going to post about the higher traditions beyond 'non-conceptual' and 'formless' meditation too?


MelT

[Androgenicx]

Originally Posted by MelT

This thread is a great resource Androgenix. Are you going to post about the higher traditions beyond 'non-conceptual' and 'formless' meditation too?


MelT

Could you elaborate? I am not aware of any higher traditions. Everything falls into either object meditation, or objectless. "Higher" traditions can involve deeper meditations, adding physical distractions such as a burning pot of fire on your head.

If your talking about Samadhi, those are simply stages of very deep meditation and almost as impossible to describe as Enlightenment itself. Sarvikalpa Samadhi is when you go deep enough into any form of meditation for the meditation to become effortless and for the flow of erratic thought to be dropped completely or almost completely. You don't feel aware of your own body anymore, only of the object but observer awareness is still there. Breathing and heartbeat slow down very significantly. Nirvakalpa Samadhi is the next and highest stage of meditation, it is complete absorption. There is no object-consciousness, no observer. Everything dissolves, breathing stops, heartbeat stops, and one is simply in divine bliss without being aware of anything. The body does not die as the energy of the divine that one has temporarily gained union with keeps the body alive.

Another open eye awareness meditation, often done with a Trishul or Trident, is to first meditate on the center spoke of the trident, then to try to expand your awareness to 2 spokes, then to all 3 - to see all 3 spokes of the trident without your eyes moving by only expanding your awareness.

There are various practices, both somewhat known such as the Panch Agni (Five Fires) where you surround yourself with fire pots and place a 5th pot of fire on your own head, having a ditch dug and covered so that air can come in but the practioner of the meditation cannot leave the ditch until a pre-appointed time when the ditch is opened, and various various others that have been either lost over the ages or are known only in the orders of various monkhoods and Sanyassis in Tibetan and Hindu sects.

If there is something else that you are talking about, please feel free to add to the thread, I do not have knowledge of them and would love to learn as well.

[ThusFar]

You got a lot of information there, just going to bump this so i can find it easier later.

Thanks for posting

[MelT]

Could you elaborate? I am not aware of any higher traditions. Everything falls into either object meditation, or objectless.

Yes, that's true for forms of meditation, but meditation in the usual sense is an intermediate practise that is eventually left behind. In later traditions it's referred to as a 'sickness' that's a barrier to realisation, and left for 'non-meditation conjoined with wisdom'.


If there is something else that you are talking about, please feel free to add to the thread, I do not have knowledge of them and would love to learn as well.

I think these methods should be added, but I thought I should ask first, as this thread is really yours and I didn't want to intrude. This really should take a few pages to explain properly, and I hope I can do it justice here despite having to speak in generalisations, but;

In describing the branches of meditation, they're usually all seen as each falling under a basic heading within the '4 Yogas', each with its own aim. As you're showing with your first postings on the first yoga, the first goal is one-pointedness, in the second yoga the goal is non-conceptuality, both reached by meditation.

1) One-Pointedness
2) Beyond Concepts
3) One Taste
4) Beyond Meditation

Speaking very broadly, any form of meditation that falls into the first two categories are 'cause and effect' meditations for those hoping to attain Kensho, the second two are 'non-meditation' for those who have reached it and want to rest within it as a permanent state. There are also two more subsequent levels of non-meditation after these for those who do reach satori, to help them broaden their state even further.

We might also say that the first two yogas are 'gradualist' methods and are based on cause and effect; ie, you do X in meditation to take you hopefully to state Y. Once you've reached state Y, with a bit of luck it's effects last for a few months or years, and grow progressively deeper each time you return to the state. The trouble is that on the whole, you will leave whatever state you create or reach once you rise from meditation, so any attainment or experience in meditation is impermanent and simply a 'glimpse' of ultimate nature.

In the second two Yogas though, the results are 'instant' (or cumulative), and the third is semi-permanent, with the fourth permanent - there is no entering or leaving it.

In terms of kinds of meditation that are beyond object or object-less, we could also add in attaining 'reflexive', then 'essential', Rigpa to the list of methods, giving a subdivision to the fourth Yoga category; or add in contemplation of View and its subsidiary non-practises to the third Yoga. So, truthfully speaking there are many other methods other than those that can be covered by the terms 'object' or 'object-less' meditation.

Method and Wisdom
At first, students begin by using 'method' (meditation and its supports) to reach particular states, which they hope will contain knowledge of the nature of reality ('wisdom'). As time goes on and this knowledge is gained, less and less method is used favour of wisdom alone. Once using wisdom alone there is little recognisable meditation in any traditional sense, as the use of wisdom isn't applied through meditation - so little by little, meditation as most will know it is left behind in favour of simply knowing reality correctly. Make no mistake, realisation isn't just about reaching particular states of mind, but states where particular knowledge about reality is directly experienced - 'realised'.

However, to some degree, once you've reached full knowledge there's no need to keep trying to experience it again and again in Kensho, there's no real purpose. You simply learn how to take what you've learned and apply it in a particular way that will lead to full Satori, leaving meditation and effort behind. Kensho, if deep enough, signals the start of non-meditation.

To try and explain how some methods are slower than others, using the 4 categories above I'll roughly mark out the differences:

1) One-pointedness - is 'method'. It's a form of 'doing' - ie, doing something and hoping for an effect, therefore thepractise contains subtle desire (for realisation) and intent (to continue to sit), which both go to make the state the practitioner seeks, and their sitting, less than pure.

2) Beyond concepts - is again 'method', or if practised along with Vipassana, 'method and insight'. this is better than number 1, but still based on cause and effect. 'Insight' means understanding the true nature of reality, which at this point will tend to be either solely intellectual, or a mixture of intellectual and that gained via direct experience.

3) One Taste - Wisdom (actual direct knowledge rather than insight) and some method.

4) Beyond Meditation - Wisdom alone, instant and permanent. No meditation to enter or leave. The practice is the Fruit, the Fruit is the practice.

As Androgenix rightly says above, Nirvikalpa Samadhi is the highest state of meditation, but it isn't the highest state of non-meditation, and there's a secret samadhi that's even beyond Satori/Nirvikalpa.

As this was a bit of a potted history that may not make much sense to some, I'm happy to explain any point in more detail.

MelT

[Androgenicx]

Originally Posted by MelT

Could you elaborate? I am not aware of any higher traditions. Everything falls into either object meditation, or objectless.

Yes, that's true for forms of meditation, but meditation in the usual sense is an intermediate practise that is eventually left behind. In later traditions it's referred to as a 'sickness' that's a barrier to realisation, and left for 'non-meditation conjoined with wisdom'.


If there is something else that you are talking about, please feel free to add to the thread, I do not have knowledge of them and would love to learn as well.

I think these methods should be added, but I thought I should ask first, as this thread is really yours and I didn't want to intrude. This really should take a few pages to explain properly, and I hope I can do it justice here despite having to speak in generalisations, but;

In describing the branches of meditation, they're usually all seen as each falling under a basic heading within the '4 Yogas', each with its own aim. As you're showing with your first postings on the first yoga, the first goal is one-pointedness, in the second yoga the goal is non-conceptuality, both reached by meditation.

1) One-Pointedness
2) Beyond Concepts
3) One Taste
4) Beyond Meditation

Speaking very broadly, any form of meditation that falls into the first two categories are 'cause and effect' meditations for those hoping to attain Kensho, the second two are 'non-meditation' for those who have reached it and want to rest within it as a permanent state. There are also two more subsequent levels of non-meditation after these for those who do reach satori, to help them broaden their state even further.

We might also say that the first two yogas are 'gradualist' methods and are based on cause and effect; ie, you do X in meditation to take you hopefully to state Y. Once you've reached state Y, with a bit of luck it's effects last for a few months or years, and grow progressively deeper each time you return to the state. The trouble is that on the whole, you will leave whatever state you create or reach once you rise from meditation, so any attainment or experience in meditation is impermanent and simply a 'glimpse' of ultimate nature.

In the second two Yogas though, the results are 'instant' (or cumulative), and the third is semi-permanent, with the fourth permanent - there is no entering or leaving it.

In terms of kinds of meditation that are beyond object or object-less, we could also add in attaining 'reflexive', then 'essential', Rigpa to the list of methods, giving a subdivision to the fourth Yoga category; or add in contemplation of View and its subsidiary non-practises to the third Yoga. So, truthfully speaking there are many other methods other than those that can be covered by the terms 'object' or 'object-less' meditation.

Method and Wisdom
At first, students begin by using 'method' (meditation and its supports) to reach particular states, which they hope will contain knowledge of the nature of reality ('wisdom'). As time goes on and this knowledge is gained, less and less method is used favour of wisdom alone. Once using wisdom alone there is little recognisable meditation in any traditional sense, as the use of wisdom isn't applied through meditation - so little by little, meditation as most will know it is left behind in favour of simply knowing reality correctly. Make no mistake, realisation isn't just about reaching particular states of mind, but states where particular knowledge about reality is directly experienced - 'realised'.

However, to some degree, once you've reached full knowledge there's no need to keep trying to experience it again and again in Kensho, there's no real purpose. You simply learn how to take what you've learned and apply it in a particular way that will lead to full Satori, leaving meditation and effort behind. Kensho, if deep enough, signals the start of non-meditation.

To try and explain how some methods are slower than others, using the 4 categories above I'll roughly mark out the differences:

1) One-pointedness - is 'method'. It's a form of 'doing' - ie, doing something and hoping for an effect, therefore thepractise contains subtle desire (for realisation) and intent (to continue to sit), which both go to make the state the practitioner seeks, and their sitting, less than pure.

2) Beyond concepts - is again 'method', or if practised along with Vipassana, 'method and insight'. this is better than number 1, but still based on cause and effect. 'Insight' means understanding the true nature of reality, which at this point will tend to be either solely intellectual, or a mixture of intellectual and that gained via direct experience.

3) One Taste - Wisdom (actual direct knowledge rather than insight) and some method.

4) Beyond Meditation - Wisdom alone, instant and permanent. No meditation to enter or leave. The practice is the Fruit, the Fruit is the practice.

As Androgenix rightly says above, Nirvikalpa Samadhi is the highest state of meditation, but it isn't the highest state of non-meditation, and there's a secret samadhi that's even beyond Satori/Nirvikalpa.

As this was a bit of a potted history that may not make much sense to some, I'm happy to explain any point in more detail.

MelT

Thanks for this post, very useful. How could the thread be mine, when there is no "I" to attribute it to

No right or wrongs, all methods, all religions, all philosophies have their own methods to realization, but meditation as "sickness" is I believe mostly Buddhist. Meditation can and does become a crutch, agreed, but doesnt necessarily have to be dropped altogether until complete attainment - realization that goes beyond the meditation and requires no further meditation. This realization can be come to during and through meditation, as it did for various enlightened hindu beings, and as it incidentally did for the Buddha himself.

While it is certainly of utmost importance to point out and assimilate that meditative states themselves are not the end and that the goal is attainment in non-meditation, how does one go about these is inexplicable, cannot be guided, only be made aware of. Only after satori either by personal understanding of the being who has attained satori, or by direct transmission from an attained master can these states be entered and permanently resided in, there is no guide long or comprehensive enough that is possible to direct one into these states.

Question, what do you mean by dropping meditation and carrying on the state of satori by wisdom itself? Waking dzogchen where in each moment you keep the realization and re-establish the truth of the wisdom? Or is it something else you are talking about here?

Again, thank you for this addition, it is a very important part that was overseen in the first few posts, not only in the posting but I wasn't aware enough of it myself to realize its relevance and significance.

[collie_man]

How long do you usually meditate for Androgenicx? If one meditates for too short of a period one may not reach that 'bliss' or equilibrium or whatever you wanna call it. Yet if one meditates too long one may find oneself becoming distracted.

This may be a naive question, but i've never tried meditation before so please don't laught at me

[Androgenicx]

Originally Posted by collie_man

How long do you usually meditate for Androgenicx? If one meditates for too short of a period one may not reach that 'bliss' or equilibrium or whatever you wanna call it. Yet if one meditates too long one may find oneself becoming distracted.

This may be a naive question, but i've never tried meditation before so please don't laught at me

As long as feels possible feels right feels necessary. Some days might go without any meditation, some with a single 20 minute session, average days these days with 2-3 30-40 minute sessions, some days a total of 4-5 hours, longest session so far being about 2 hours unbroken. Its not about the length, some may find what they need from the meditation fast, some longer. Some take longer to get into a meditative state, some shorter.

For me, these days within 30 seconds of being in meditation the "click" of the meditative state occurs. Energies start floating and pulsing around my body, white lights start flashing around in front of my closed eyes, my crown starts tightening and vibrating like a drill with energy, it pours in and around my third and fourth eyes, and there is an upward pulsing of energy from my root. My neck literally "clicks" into a neutral position and doesn't move. If at any point in the meditation I move my head or as i come out of the meditation, i can feel every muscle fiber in my neck "unclick". Often when i move my head it falls and "clicks" into another position, like the head on a plastic doll. Soon bodily extremes start closing in and alot of my body stops being experienced, my hands in a connected mudra either buddha mudra or dhyana only feel like light energy and "fuse" together, stop existing like seperate entities. At some point legs dont feel like legs but like some light field of energy, at some point the hands resting on the legs stop being seperate. One interesting experience was when both my palms vanished into energy and it felt like the left palm which was underneath the other palm was upside down and my forearm was twisted..i checked, amused, to see that it was sitting perfectly normal the way I left it.

From here on its not difficult to sit in meditation anymore, the energy just carries me deeper and deeper. I don't do anything - just sit, and try not to interfere with anything, not the energies, not my thoughts, nothing. Why do I have to do anything? Why the obsession with feeling obligated to doing something? When I first tried to "just sit", the question kept arising, how do you "do nothing" without doing something? The experience is not to do something, to feel like there is somewhere to go, something to be attained, some meditative state to be reached - it is the realization that there is nothing to achieve nothing to attain nothing to fear nothing to bother about at all, not even spirituality, enlightenment, or god realization. Then the mind drops, for it has nothing to hold onto any longer.

The click came after awhile, and now it happens much more easily. I just sit - meditation happens.

"Bliss is like a breeze. As long as you have your hands open, you can feel it flow. Once you try to possess it, it moves away from you"

A journey of a thousand miles begins with one step - when I first started I couldn't do more than 15 minutes, perhaps an hour when i was high because it was so interesting and the energies felt so much more intense high. Now i feel more intense energies sober.

Start, and do what you can

[MelT]

Thanks for this post, very useful. How could the thread be mine, when there is no "I" to attribute it to



>>No right or wrongs, all methods, all religions, all philosophies have their own methods to realization, but meditation as "sickness" is I believe mostly Buddhist.

Actually it's something that appears in the higher end of all forms, including Hinduism. The source of Dzogchen is the Swat Valley, and it has (amongst others) Hindu roots. I realise the danger of posting it here and appearing to be saying 'don't meditate', but what I'm saying is don't JUST meditate.

Of course anyone could become enlightened using just meditation alone, or beating an egg, but you've already covered those kinds of meditation approaches exceptionally well in your own posts. I'm just showing what happens beyond those teachings, or for the lucky ones, what happens even before they even begin to meditate. As Mahayana says, it would take many lifetimes using meditation to become enlightened, in other traditions using other methods it's possible in this lifetime.

>>Meditation can and does become a crutch, agreed, but doesnt necessarily have to be dropped altogether until complete attainment - realization that goes beyond the meditation and requires no further meditation. This realization can be come to during and through meditation, as it did for various enlightened hindu beings, and as it incidentally did for the Buddha himself.

No, you're right, it doesn't have to be dropped at all, everything is personal choice, but it's better if it is eventually - of course after having gone through it and gained the tools it offers. Many have become enlightened with meditation, but it's far more common to be enlightened through wisdom and insight. It isn't one is bad and the other good, or that one excludes the other, just that one is faster, and the other quickly becomes a hindrance.

In classical texts Buddha's experience of enlightenment shows him going through the Dhyanas and entering then leaving non-conceptuality - but what's missing in this is the other side of Buddha's teachings on emptiness and the nature of reality that were central to his practice. He would certainly have been using method and wisdom, not just meditating as he rose through these stages. In the Sutra I posted, you'll see he says that his method involves no support, just an understanding of emptiness.

It isn't because meditation becomes a crutch, but as I hoped to point out in my earlier post, that it relies on cause and effect, reification and conceptualisation, subtle desire, and worst of all, intent. These lower the chances of the 'states' we're looking for coming about. It doesn't stop them entirely, just reduces the possibility of them occurring quite substantially.

The other problem is that meditation only offers brief experiences, and a state that you enter, then leave as your rise from meditation (though of course meditation's general effects are on-going). This is a real problem, because it means that using meditation will never allow you to rest in attainment, to experience the fruit of your practice and reach Satori.

>> that the goal is attainment in non-meditation, how does one go about these is inexplicable, cannot be guided, only be made aware of. Only after satori either by personal understanding of the being who has attained satori, or by direct transmission from an attained master can these states be entered and permanently resided in, there is no guide long or comprehensive enough that is possible to direct one into these states

I would have to disagree on it being inexplicable, as the whole of Dzogchen and its hundreds of texts is about that very thing, with full guidance on how to reach Kensho and then Satori. It's regarded as the 'completion stage' of meditation, the final destination and the ultimate approach by all traditions, and for very good reasons, as its early writers were all fully enlightened beings. Of course it's easier to understand if you have a living Master, but if you've already reached Kensho it's purely a matter of logic.

The guidance within it (and to some extent Mahamudra) is very clear and written in far more accessible language than the earlier sutras, I think you'd enjoy it a lot. In fact, from what you've already posted I would say that you were ripe to move into it, it would add enormously to what you already know and help lift that other leg off the ground, I think very quickly

>> Question, what do you mean by dropping meditation and carrying on the state of satori by wisdom itself? Waking dzogchen where in each moment you keep the realization and re-establish the truth of the wisdom?

This is going to be hard to put over succinctly. The scheme I posted earlier, where method gives way to wisdom, is up to the tradition of Mahamudra, the stage prior to Dzogchen. Dzogchen begins with wisdom, then shows you how to move away beyond it, because, just like meditation, wisdom involves conceptualisation. Once wisdom of any kind, direct or intellectual, is reified, you immediately miss the actuality of what it is you're trying to reach and understanding becomes a barrier. The wisdom I was talking about in Dzogchen is the wisdom to go beyond wisdom, to be free, even from being free. As the Buddha said, to 'be without support'.

In Dzogchen there is no cause and effect practice of any kind if you 'get it' straight away. If you don't, then you step back and go into whichever of the three main divisions will help you clear up whatever problems stopped your instant understanding, which may or may not contain cause and effect work. So, if a practitioner were to need to 're-establish' anything he would be doing a subsidiary practice, and not Dzogchen. You don't enter into it or ever leave it once you understand.

Not everybody gets it straight away though, I certainly didn't. 15 years ago I was at a point just like you are now, with all the right ideas and experiences, but I was missing the point and just trying to accrue more and more methods and understanding from as many traditions as I could, thinking that would work - but in fact, once you 'know' (as you already do), it's simply a matter of applying what you know correctly. You are so close, and it's taking me all my strength not to leap on a plane and 'point the finger'.

No matter what level anyone is at as they read this, you don't need to drop mediation, it has its own benefits, but you do need to add in further methods to help you along.

>> Again, thank you for this addition, it is a very important part that was overseen in the first few posts, not only in the posting but I wasn't aware enough of it myself to realize its relevance and significance.

Not at all Important as the higher traditions are, many people never even know of their existence, mainly because they were highly secret teachings until the early 70's that were only taught to those ready to understand them. When I first began there was next to nothing available commercially, and only a handful of texts circulating privately. Nowadays many of the key teachings can be found in any large bookstore.

I'm enjoying this conversation immensely BTW, well worth coming back for

MelT

[Liquidtruth]

Thread has been stickied.

[Androgenicx]

Originally Posted by MelT

Thanks for this post, very useful. How could the thread be mine, when there is no "I" to attribute it to



>>No right or wrongs, all methods, all religions, all philosophies have their own methods to realization, but meditation as "sickness" is I believe mostly Buddhist.

Actually it's something that appears in the higher end of all forms, including Hinduism. The source of Dzogchen is the Swat Valley, and it has (amongst others) Hindu roots. I realise the danger of posting it here and appearing to be saying 'don't meditate', but what I'm saying is don't JUST meditate.

Of course anyone could become enlightened using just meditation alone, or beating an egg, but you've already covered those kinds of meditation approaches exceptionally well in your own posts. I'm just showing what happens beyond those teachings, or for the lucky ones, what happens even before they even begin to meditate. As Mahayana says, it would take many lifetimes using meditation to become enlightened, in other traditions using other methods it's possible in this lifetime.

>>Meditation can and does become a crutch, agreed, but doesnt necessarily have to be dropped altogether until complete attainment - realization that goes beyond the meditation and requires no further meditation. This realization can be come to during and through meditation, as it did for various enlightened hindu beings, and as it incidentally did for the Buddha himself.

No, you're right, it doesn't have to be dropped at all, everything is personal choice, but it's better if it is eventually - of course after having gone through it and gained the tools it offers. Many have become enlightened with meditation, but it's far more common to be enlightened through wisdom and insight. It isn't one is bad and the other good, or that one excludes the other, just that one is faster, and the other quickly becomes a hindrance.

In classical texts Buddha's experience of enlightenment shows him going through the Dhyanas and entering then leaving non-conceptuality - but what's missing in this is the other side of Buddha's teachings on emptiness and the nature of reality that were central to his practice. He would certainly have been using method and wisdom, not just meditating as he rose through these stages. In the Sutra I posted, you'll see he says that his method involves no support, just an understanding of emptiness.

It isn't because meditation becomes a crutch, but as I hoped to point out in my earlier post, that it relies on cause and effect, reification and conceptualisation, subtle desire, and worst of all, intent. These lower the chances of the 'states' we're looking for coming about. It doesn't stop them entirely, just reduces the possibility of them occurring quite substantially.

The other problem is that meditation only offers brief experiences, and a state that you enter, then leave as your rise from meditation (though of course meditation's general effects are on-going). This is a real problem, because it means that using meditation will never allow you to rest in attainment, to experience the fruit of your practice and reach Satori.

>> that the goal is attainment in non-meditation, how does one go about these is inexplicable, cannot be guided, only be made aware of. Only after satori either by personal understanding of the being who has attained satori, or by direct transmission from an attained master can these states be entered and permanently resided in, there is no guide long or comprehensive enough that is possible to direct one into these states

I would have to disagree on it being inexplicable, as the whole of Dzogchen and its hundreds of texts is about that very thing, with full guidance on how to reach Kensho and then Satori. It's regarded as the 'completion stage' of meditation, the final destination and the ultimate approach by all traditions, and for very good reasons, as its early writers were all fully enlightened beings. Of course it's easier to understand if you have a living Master, but if you've already reached Kensho it's purely a matter of logic.

The guidance within it (and to some extent Mahamudra) is very clear and written in far more accessible language than the earlier sutras, I think you'd enjoy it a lot. In fact, from what you've already posted I would say that you were ripe to move into it, it would add enormously to what you already know and help lift that other leg off the ground, I think very quickly

>> Question, what do you mean by dropping meditation and carrying on the state of satori by wisdom itself? Waking dzogchen where in each moment you keep the realization and re-establish the truth of the wisdom?

This is going to be hard to put over succinctly. The scheme I posted earlier, where method gives way to wisdom, is up to the tradition of Mahamudra, the stage prior to Dzogchen. Dzogchen begins with wisdom, then shows you how to move away beyond it, because, just like meditation, wisdom involves conceptualisation. Once wisdom of any kind, direct or intellectual, is reified, you immediately miss the actuality of what it is you're trying to reach and understanding becomes a barrier. The wisdom I was talking about in Dzogchen is the wisdom to go beyond wisdom, to be free, even from being free. As the Buddha said, to 'be without support'.

In Dzogchen there is no cause and effect practice of any kind if you 'get it' straight away. If you don't, then you step back and go into whichever of the three main divisions will help you clear up whatever problems stopped your instant understanding, which may or may not contain cause and effect work. So, if a practitioner were to need to 're-establish' anything he would be doing a subsidiary practice, and not Dzogchen. You don't enter into it or ever leave it once you understand.

Not everybody gets it straight away though, I certainly didn't. 15 years ago I was at a point just like you are now, with all the right ideas and experiences, but I was missing the point and just trying to accrue more and more methods and understanding from as many traditions as I could, thinking that would work - but in fact, once you 'know' (as you already do), it's simply a matter of applying what you know correctly. You are so close, and it's taking me all my strength not to leap on a plane and 'point the finger'.

No matter what level anyone is at as they read this, you don't need to drop mediation, it has its own benefits, but you do need to add in further methods to help you along.

>> Again, thank you for this addition, it is a very important part that was overseen in the first few posts, not only in the posting but I wasn't aware enough of it myself to realize its relevance and significance.

Not at all Important as the higher traditions are, many people never even know of their existence, mainly because they were highly secret teachings until the early 70's that were only taught to those ready to understand them. When I first began there was next to nothing available commercially, and only a handful of texts circulating privately. Nowadays many of the key teachings can be found in any large bookstore.

I'm enjoying this conversation immensely BTW, well worth coming back for

MelT

Thanks, very useful. The dzogchen practice while it is living enlightenment, non-conceptual and without beginning or end, does not stay for some reason unless one is aware of it at all times. I find sometimes myself the empty, causeless, non-conceptual, stateless state brought through dzogchen, but when I go to sleep awareness ceases, thoughts and concepts come in the form of dreams, and upon waking one is no longer in the state of dzogchen. Also, sudden conflicts or emergencies or situations that traditionally uprise intense mortal fear can break the state - involuntarily - this is for the reason that all levels of the being and past conditioning as well as present have not abided in this non-conceptual realization yet.

What is it then that finally allows one to embody and realize waking "realization" of the conceptless and unnameable, where the mind turns fully inwards and all inner chatter ceases? For people can go into great states of samadhi, may walk many days in dzogchen, but still not "get it".

The answer in my opinion lies in the word "realization" itself. There are our various bodies subtle energy, physical, thought bundles, and ingrained samskarik beliefs/karmic imprints that transcend the experiences of a few days, weeks, months, even years. Even if one is in waking dzogchen for days together, the full "realization" does not occur because there is ingrained conditioning on these other, more long term, more deep rooted, more large-timeframe-related parts of ones being. Until these are "cleansed" and aligned with a few parts wisdom, a few parts samadhi experience that stays and cleanses and ingrains itself as one of the most intense experiences in ones life every time it occurs, a few parts waking dzogchen every day, a few parts seeing usual "problems" that one used to face dissolving as illusion due to being in waking dzogchen, then the full "realization" on all levels of the being where everything simultaneously has nothing left - no trauma, no deep rooted negative pasts, no nothing except the non-conceptual truth, enlightnment does not occur.

Which is why I hold fast that insight, wisdom, practice - practice - pracitce with courage and steadfastness, dzogchen practice, sunnata practice, as well as deep meditation to cleanse samskaric imprints, trauma, and karma, that cleannses all that is not aligned with the truth at deeper rooted levels, is necessary and useful. The level of karmic "trauma" and deeply ingrained experiences, from this life and past ones, and beliefs that unconsciously do not align with the current experience of liberation from the invisible cage that one might be experiencing, are different for different people and one cannot know them consciously - hence one never knows when the final unclutching will occur. All one can do it keep practicing in all ways, including waking dzogchen and 'direct-to-the-heart of buddha nature' non-conceptual realization, and meditation to keep cleansing and sorting out the ingrained karmas and belief-bundles that are not aligned with and therefore deny final realization. Meditation is a key tool in this, for waking dzogchen puts the mind at rest and experiences the heart of buddha nature and allows for cleansing and experiential conditioning over time that validates the truth of the non-conceptual experience over and over again and prevents the accumulation of any more beliefs, but it does not do much for the deep rooted angsts and unconscious beliefs and all the deeper parts of the being that might not be aligned enough with wisdom and non-conceptual truth for the entire being to finally "let go" and surrender the identity completely to the non-conceptual experience.

Incidentally, I can't help but wonder in awe, have "you" lost the "I"? Are you there, never to come back again? Is it all the non-conceptual, stateless-state for you, every day all the time without any break or pause, has the mind subsided permanently and with it ALL the illusions of problems? MeIT..have you realized fully? Are we in the presence of an enlightened being?

EDIT: Also, could you share the sources of some quality dzogchen texts, or what they are called and where one can buy them? Would be very greatly appreciated, and again thanks for contributing so significantly to this thread.

[wackdeafboy]

what is satori?
is it a gate to something?


Every time I medicate, when my eyes are closed, thats when I can go to simple/no mind, just getting into medication. Thats when my eyes open up again, that when I lose the medication. Always have this problem. any tips?

[Androgenicx]

Originally Posted by wackdeafboy

what is satori?
is it a gate to something?


Every time I medicate, when my eyes are closed, thats when I can go to simple/no mind, just getting into medication. Thats when my eyes open up again, that when I lose the medication. Always have this problem. any tips?

Satori is a glimpse of the true nature - a glimpse of the true self - a glimpse of god, whatever you want to call it. It occurs when at some point, the self just gives itself up as it sees itself and its constant attempt to salvage an identity through thought and rationalization as useless. It is the unclutching of the self-imposed knot that binds us. Momentary liberation.

You are very lucky if you can get into no mind every time you meditate. If your eyes open, let them open. Stay in no mind while they are open. Surrender control of your body.

[wackdeafboy]

Originally Posted by Androgenicx

Satori is a glimpse of the true nature - a glimpse of the true self - a glimpse of god, whatever you want to call it. It occurs when at some point, the self just gives itself up as it sees itself and its constant attempt to salvage an identity through thought and rationalization as useless. It is the unclutching of the self-imposed knot that binds us. Momentary liberation.

You are very lucky if you can get into no mind every time you meditate. If your eyes open, let them open. Stay in no mind while they are open. Surrender control of your body.

when my eyes open, that when I lose the medication/ my mind/thinking comes back. If I just leave them open the I can't medicate but I can do no thinkin/mind or whatever. When I closed my eyes, I want stay closed but it won't. IDK......

I only can stay no mind for least 5 mins then thinking comes back... so really, no I'm not lucky

[Androgenicx]

Originally Posted by wackdeafboy

when my eyes open, that when I lose the medication/ my mind/thinking comes back. If I just leave them open the I can't medicate but I can do no thinkin/mind or whatever. When I closed my eyes, I want stay closed but it won't. IDK......

I only can stay no mind for least 5 mins then thinking comes back... so really, no I'm not lucky

If your staying in no mind for 5 minutes you will be experiencing loss of the sense of self, loss of everything, and great bliss unlike anything ever you have experienced before. If you are in it for 5 minutes at a stretch you are at the meditative level of a highly practiced yogi who loses himself to bliss completely. Either this is happening, or you are not in no-mind.

It takes alot of practice and awareness directed at observing ones thoughts to even be aware of most of what is occuring inside one's head. Most likely you are simply not yet aware of the thoughts you are experiencing, and are under the illusion that you are not thinking.

"I can't meditate but i can do no thinking/mind". If you are meditating in attempt to go directly to no mind, it is formless meditation. In formless meditation, you do nothing. You simply sit. You cannot "do" "no mind", this is an act of the mind itself.

No mind is the meditative state, if you are in no mind you are in meditation.

Also, the term is 'meditation not medication

[MelT]

Originally Posted by Androgenicx

Thanks, very useful. The dzogchen practice while it is living enlightenment, non-conceptual and without beginning or end, does not stay for some reason unless one is aware of it at all times. I find sometimes myself the empty, causeless, non-conceptual, stateless state brought through dzogchen, but when I go to sleep awareness ceases, thoughts and concepts come in the form of dreams, and upon waking one is no longer in the state of dzogchen. Also, sudden conflicts or emergencies or situations that traditionally uprise intense mortal fear can break the state - involuntarily - this is for the reason that all levels of the being and past conditioning as well as present have not abided in this non-conceptual realization yet..

This is in no way a criticism, what you're practicing is very complex and you may not quite have the right idea of what Dzogchen requires and how it's 'reached'. It sounds like you're practising Rigpa, but without the support of Trekchod and Thodgal*. There is no 'state of Dzogchen' in Dzogchen itself, we're not seeking a single state, like permanent non-conceptuality, that's something that arises out of practise as a side effect, like bliss. But you don't become attached to it, bliss, or clarity, or nyams, because they're temporary states and obscurations. They're symptoms of mental pliancy, not the final goal. If you're practising in the right way you should be getting random blisses in and out of practice at present, are you seeing the non-conceptuality within them?


I do agree with much of what you're saying above, and the methods you talk about are necessary as a preliminary stage before Mahamudra, but there is no purity to seek, nothing to cleanse 'self' of, no bad or good states to reach - all is equal and already perfected. What is there to move from, too? Nobody can move from their basic nature, it can't be entered or left, just experienced in the same way that BKA describes in his work on Taoism.

Originally Posted by Androgenicx

Incidentally, I can't help but wonder in awe, have "you" lost the "I"? Are you there, never to come back again? Is it all the non-conceptual, stateless-state for you, every day all the time without any break or pause, has the mind subsided permanently and with it ALL the illusions of problems? MeIT..have you realized fully? Are we in the presence of an enlightened being?

Where is realisation and anyone to attain it? Without ever entering or leaving the natural state, where are the breaks in perception of it?

Originally Posted by Androgenicx

EDIT: Also, could you share the sources of some quality dzogchen texts, or what they are called and where one can buy them?

I have to stress that some of the books available are extremely complex and will involve a full description of the preliminary practises of Dzogchen as well as the essentials, and it would be hard for someone to just pick up a book and grasp the full reach or meaning of the teachings as a whole through them. There are a number of different Dzogchen schools, but I would perhaps begin with looking at Nyingma. Each school is split into teachings under 3 different categories (Semde, Longde and Menngakde), each supplying a slightly different approach (and tools) to the same end. Although they are under 3 categories, you would eventually, or concurrently, practise all 3.

All of these are available on Amazon or via Shambala Books.

Any text or book by Longchen Rabjam (a 14thC lineage holder), such as:
'Precious Treasury of the Way of Abiding'
'A Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission'.
'Old Man Basking in the Sun'
Or the Semde root tantra, the 'Kunyed Gyalpo' - commonly called the 'Supreme Source' in its modern translations.

Anything too by Garab Dorje. Some basic texts that may give a taste of both Mahamudra and Dzogchen can be found here: www.keithdowman.com.


MelT


*... If one does not first perfect Thekchod as an absolutely necessary prerequisite, then the Thodgal practice will be little better than watching a cinema show. Although one practices Thodgal not in the state of ordinary consciousness but in the state of contemplation, there is nevertheless the ever-present danger that one will become attached to the visions that arise.

An excerpt from the Kunyed Gyalpo

"...All the phenomena of existence are one single thing in the ultimate unborn dimension. Thus, in the state of Mind, there is no distinction between being or not being hindered...those who wish to relinquish hinderances and to accept the unhindred state do not concur with the true meaning...The aim of this teaching that the supreme source transmits is to clarify the meaning of wisdom that cannot be hindered; in fact, it abides in the self-arising essence that does not depend on causes or conditions. It is the state of knowledge that, once understood, brings one beyond affirming or refuting...Understanding the single fundamental nature, all is unified in the state of the supreme source, that is the Universal nature. So, whoever knows perfectly the supreme source also becomes expert in all infinite phenomena. Whoever acquires familiarty with my state acquires familiarity with the nature of everything..." (See my next posting regarding knowledge acquired in realisation)

Sattvavajra, experience well! The conclusion of everything is understanding and acquiring familiarity with the essence of what perceives through sight and hearing. Whatever form the essence assumes, one understands its unborn nature. Undistracted presence beyond hope and fear* is the true state of knowledge..."

* Hope of reaching realisation; fear of not already being in a natural state.