When humans evolve..... further. (Human subspecies)

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by chiefMOJOrisin, Oct 30, 2008.

  1. My buddy and I were having quite the LSD induced conversation last night after I got back from North Dakota. (Left over from a summer festi.... wowsa!!! Anyone else get 'fluff' over the summer?? If so, you know!)


    He heard/saw/imagined something that really got us going. When humans colonize the Moon and Mars (the operative word there is when), we will eventually continue the evolutionary chain that we have since stopped. (I'll get back to this in a minute or ten.)




    Personally, I feel that, even though all humans are equal in rights and soul, that we consist of several different subspecies already. Black, White, Asian, Arabic, Hispanic, etc....

    I am very far from racist.... in fact, if anyone has read my posts, I think everything is equal.... I, myself, a white man, consider the oak tree in my back yard to be my equal. I consider Michael Jordan to be my equal.... besides the fact that I can wreck him in b-ball.


    Nontheless, our currert mindset and that of our ancestors forced many of us to believe that we are above animals and that certain races and cultures were superior. If they didn't, the noun 'barbarian' wouldn't exist. From what I could find, the word derives from several different thingies... the basis of which are something like 'bah bah', or what so called civilized folks would hear when other cultures spoke their language.... and others meaning 'curly hair'.



    But let us think of this in a Darwinian sense.... I will make a comparison that I think is very compelling. And it has to do with one of my absolute favorite things on this planet.... birds.

    I've traveled all around the United States with the hopes that I will one day see, identify, and photograph every single species of bird. During my travels, I have come across several species and subspecies of bird that are pretty much the same fucking thing. For example.... a bird everyone knows, the Crow.

    The American Crow's range stretches over much of the US. It is large, black passerine (perching bird)... ok. Yet, once you reach the far west (really only the immediate coast line of British Columbia and the immediate coast of Alaska, extending about half way out to the Aleutian Islands), there is no longer the American Crow.... it is the Northwestern Crow. Two birds recognized by science to be different species that share a common ancestor. And even further, along the east coast there is a smaller crow called the Fish Crow. To the casual, and even semi-whethered observer/birder, they wouldn't be able to tell them apart. In fact, without holding a specimen, the only way (that I know of/have learned) to discern between the American and Fish Crow is their call. (the Fish Crow is smaller, but it is very easy to just think it may be a juvenile American). And the only way to tell between the Northwestern and American Crow is their range! They are pretty much identical.... but a voice and where they live (and DNA and all that fun scientific shit) make them 3 individual species.

    Here is another good example.... Sparrows of the genus 'ammodramus'. This genus consists of 7 individual species, which all look alike. Experienced birders can tell some apart, and looking at photos and field guides makes it easier. Regardless, it is extremely apparent that all 7 shared a common ancestor. There is the Baird's, Grasshopper, Le Conte's, Henslow's, Seaside, Nelson's Sharp-tailed, and Saltmarsh Sharptailed Sparrow. All 7 have some sort of yellow on their head... either the lores (feathers in front of the eyes), crown stripes (on top of the head), supercillium (stripe of feathers above the eye), or the malar (feathers between the cheek (auriculars) and the throat). All are brownish with streaking on their backs.... all have obvious streaking on the breast. Yet, they all have widely different habitat requirements and ranges. Notice how most of them are named after someone??? That is because at one point a while back, the certain individual was considered a subspecies, or even just a varient of another species. Whoever it was (Baird, Le Conte, Nelson etc...) realized that there was more to it, and eventually got thier name on it.

    If 7 scientifically different sparrows can be considered different species, all of which no doubt had a common ancestor (not the one that sprouted all life or all birds), why aren't humans broken into subspecies??? The Le Conte's Sparrow surely is not thought to be inferior to the Saltmarsh Sharp-tailed Sparrow.... so I see no trouble in classifying humans into seperate subspecies.

    What Darwin started and others continued is widely accepted as fact. Except for those religious folks who refuse to believe tangible, scientific proof. We, humans, are related to apes. Deal with it. I feel that to effectively continue and understand the evolution of life on our planet, we need to insert ourselves into the evolutionary chain further than just homosapiens. Homo eurpeanus.... Homo africanus.... Homo australis... etc...





    Now back to Mars. Regardless if what I previously rambled about is relevent or not, we will eventually break off into seperate subspecies. Humans living on Earth and humans living on Mars will be similar, but different. Humans living on Mars will have to adapt to a completely different environment and lifestyle.... which is exactly how species and subspecies came about here on earth. The same goes for the Moon.


    ->Mars Humans would be 'homo areiosus'.....Areios being the Greek word for 'the wandering star', whom Pyroeis was the god of.

    ->Moon Humans would be 'homo selenius'...... Selene, in Greek means 'Moon'.

    ->Earth Humans would be 'homo gaius'....., from the Greek word for Earth, Ga or Ge.... and from the Greek goddess of the earth, Gaia.

    (I used Greek because it made the scientific names cooler than using Latin).





    So yea..... another long rambambled post by MoJo.



    AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNDDDD..... discuss.....
     
  2. I love your post,it makes me feel warm inside.It kinda makes me think your part of the Hierarchy(Galactic Federation of planets),but who cares.Racial Harmony is the Bomb.

    I will give up eating Fried chicken,drinking grape soda and smoking menthol cigarettes to have a little piece of what your selling.

    1eyed
    /_\
     
  3. #3 sikander, Oct 30, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 30, 2008
    Could be because while it might be scientifically more accurate (I say "might" because I don't know), a lot of people are dumb and might take the "sub" designation to imply inferiority.

    Regarding "stopped evolution" (2nd paragraph), I don't have the foggiest damn clue where this idea comes from, but I see this so often it's not even funny. At best guess it took between four and seven million years of divergent evolution from a common ancestor to produce modern chimpanzees and modern humans. Current estimates of the average genetic difference between chimps and humans is 2%. Evolution is SLOW AS FUCK. Just because there have not been big changes in recorded history (roughly five thousand years, give or take a millenium) doesn't mean we're somehow "stopped." You're comparing events that took geological epochs to the lack of such events in an historical eyeblink and concluding that nothing's happening.

    Shit will happen, and shit is happening, it's just taking for goddamn-ever. Like a baseball game.
     
  4. before we colonize the moon and mars they will invent a microchip implant that will make people into 2 classes. class A will be like us, class B will have the implant and make them vastly smarter then regular humans. then humans can colonize space because right now we are pretty stupid as a whole.
     
  5. Well scientifically, we aren't catagorized into species because species as a classification doesn't define race. Part of the tangible definition of specie is that different species can't reproduce, hence we don't have different species. Furthermore, as long as humans are on earth we really aren't going to evolve, basically species are formed when one group of animals gets seperated from another by a physical geological barrier, where over time they develop into two different species, for earthbound humans geological barriers are non applicable, so if we did go to the moon or mars it would be totally possible for us to speciate, making us a totally bitchin animal. My question is, if there are more advanced aliens out there that have already made the jump to live on different planets, would there be multiple species of them?
     
  6. Well evolution has stopped, we don't have any more reason to evolve, unless some huge disease comes and wipes out 3/4 of the population except people with a mole on their ass, we're not going to evolve.
     
  7. Ding Ding Ding,but I'm pretty sure we would still be able to mate with them.

    How many years of evolution do you think it would take before sex with another species that came from us would be out of the question?
     
  8. I don't even have a quota for that, long as it remains a reputable subject for porno companies?
     
  9. Nonsense. All that's happening now is selection for people best able to get by in a technological, industrial, urban world (at least in the industrial, urban, technologically-advanced portions of the world). Evolution doesn't need reasons, it just happens. That's the beauty of it.
     
  10. Human evolution hasn't stopped, in fact it is moving faster than ever....
     
  11. That was a good read...
     
  12. No it's not, I'm too high to explain it, but I took biology twice in the past year, I know my shit man, humans aren't evolving, it doesn't just happen, it's survival of the fittest, and there's no distict trait that's causing humans to die off and allowing humans without that trait to reproduce more and eventually wipe out that trait, it's not happening. Read the textbooks cause i don't want to argue fact against idea.
     
  13. Good rebuttals, guys.


    But here is the thing..... different species can, and do mate... often. Mallards and Black Ducks. Golden and Bald Eagles. Horses and Mules. Humans and aliens.



    Also, there is evidence to suggest that, under the right circumstances, evolution can move very quickly.... in a length of the history of everything sense. I like to use birds for examples, so here.... The flightless Booby's of the Galapagos flew there.... the islands are young. They had no natural predetors, so they didn't need to fly.... so they lost that ability. Not in 7 million years, but over hundreds of thousands. Kinda nit picking, I know. But evolution can, and does happen faster than most think.



    I kinda want to change my original statement.... humans have stopped evolution, in the original sense. However, we have begun a backwards evolution of dumb mother fuckers. Ever see Idiocracy?? Makes sense to me, man. Chronny is right.... we no longer take part in the survival of the fittest. We have gadgets and do-dads to fix pretty much anything and make anything acceptable and hospitable.

    So now we go down........ dumb dicks mate with dumb chicks and they have even stupider kids who continue the trend until we truely are Chimp's equals. (even though they are far off..... 98% of the same DNA is pretty fucking close).
     
  14. #14 Prophet, Oct 31, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2008

    **Sigh** According to the definition of a species, it cannot mate with other species and produce fertile offspring.
    Mallards and Black Ducks are the same species. Golden and Bald eagles are the same species, mules and horses cannot consistently produce fertile offspring.

    And no, humans have not stopped evolution. Evolution is often VERRRY gradual, and the average human today is WAY WAY taller than we were 500 years ago.
     
  15. I never said their offspring was fertile. I said that different specis can, and do mate. But still, some hybrid offsprings can be fertile.... dogs much??

    How do you figure that a Mallard is the same species as an American Black Duck?? Or a Golden Eagle the same species as a Bald Eagle?? I would really like to know. Seriously, tell me.

    Do you consider a German Shepard and a Golden Retriever to be the same species??? Well.... my next door neighbor had both... they bred and had 6 puppies. And, in turn, the female they kept... quite the mutt.... bred with the German Shepard and had 7 puppies.


    Being tall has nothing to do with the survival of a species. We also live a lot longer now a days.... but that is a direct result of technology...not nature selection or evolution.

    Even you said it yourself, just wrong. 500 years is an instant compared to the length of time that life has been around.

    The human species no longer needs to be a part of natural selection because we have technology to aid the weak and sickly. If we didn't, then it would continue. Natural selection does not involve a dude with a 80 IQ mating with a woman with MS... if evolution was still in effect, they would be exterminated by the strong and fit.



    Species mate with different species.... simple as that. No one is debating the fact that the offspring is quite often sterile. Nepolean Dynamite didn't invent the Liger.... someone got a tiger and lion to fuck and produce offspring. Sometimes it is neccesary. I know you probably won't read them... but check out the following:


    -> 'Cross-species Mating May Be Evolutionarily Important And Lead To Rapid Change, Say Indiana University Researchers'
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/08/030808081854.htm


    -> 'Corals mate with other species to survive'
    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...r_species_to_survive_/articleshow/3627611.cms



    -> 'Drought drives toads to mate with other species'
    http://notexactlyrocketscience.word...ught-drives-toads-to-mate-with-other-species/



    Mallards and American Black ducks hybridize so often that it leads to some concern that the Black Duck species could be in jeapordy.


    Why do you think there is even the term, 'hybrid'??? (biology)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interbreeding




    But seriously.... I want you to tell me how a Mallard is the same species as an American Black Duck. If it is legit, then more power to you. Until then......
     
  16. Me and my friend always have debates like this and i LOVE them! Good points +rep
     

  17. They are the same SPECIES, not the same breed.
    Yes a Golden retriever and a German Shepherd are the same species, different breeds but they are both canines.
    It is impossible for a member of one species to mate and have fertile offspring with another as that defies the definition of species.


    2.\tBiology. the major subdivision of a genus or subgenus, regarded as the basic category of biological classification, composed of related individuals that resemble one another, are able to breed among themselves, but are not able to breed with members of another species.

    -Dictionary.com
     
  18. #18 Prophet, Nov 1, 2008
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2008
    Sorry, you lose, evolution is still continuing and rapidly at that. An evolutionary change is not always one that deals with the survival of a species, any change in the genetics of a species is an example of "evolution"



    You are referring to natural selection, even such, your statement is incorrect. A prime example of natural selection in modern humans is a female choosing a fit, healthy athlete over a fat, acne covered couch potato.


    It's obvious that you do not understand the basic principals of evolution and natural selection. Evolution is almost never noticeable as it is such an unbelievably slow process, as such it will appear to you that it has stopped. There will ALWAYS evolutionary change, even if it is non-aesthetic and merely in the intelligence of a given organism. Honestly, do you really think that humans are genetically perfect? Hell no. And until they are (never) or they are extinct, evolution and natural selection will continue.
     
  19. #19 Chronny215, Nov 1, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 1, 2008
    Humans aren't evolving right now, if someone is born with a trait that is different but helpful, that's not evolution, that's a mutation. We as a species have not evolved in the past 500 years, and will not evolve any farther because we have no need to adapt to our surroundings anymore, the only way you could say we've evolved is if every single human developed the same trait over time, that's evolution, someone gets mutated, or is born with a slightly different characteristic, and they and their offspring flourish while the rest of their species die off, leaving what's left of them genetically advanced because of the one trait. Why are there 13 different species of the galapagos finch? Because one of them flew to a different island, or a different part of the island, and made babies and one of those babies had an odd trait that was accidentally better suited for the enviroment, hence, that bird, and all his offspring had better chances at food, and survived over the other one. Humans don't rely on physical traits to survive anymore, we're not evolving, that's a fucking fact look it up in a textbook, it is literally in textbooks, the only way we'd evolve is if half of us went to live on another planet where we needed different traits to survive, evolution in terms of biology is survival of the fittest and that's not applicable to humans in this age. And no, a female choosing an athlete over a couch potato as a mate is not natural selection, that is a dumb statement, because one female didn't choose him to mate with doesn't mean he doesn't mate with anyone, his genes still get passed on, there's no natural selection, it's called survival of the fittest dude, survival.
     
  20. Your totally correct on this.
     

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