Faith & Reason

[Liquidtruth]

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

No real scientist would condone any "findings" stemming from an online survey.

Online survey's are often used for research purposes. If one does not condone an online survey, one should throw out data gathered from any other type of survey. Which may be a good idea at any rate?

[Zylark]

I am well aware of the pitfalls of statistics bkadoctaj. This one though had over 36000 participants, making it more accurate than your usual over the phone survey, which usually only polls about 1000 participants, and moreover have its own pitfalls.

The graph really speaks for itself. Do you dispute the findings that christian beliefs tend to coincide with a conservative political position? Or the opposite, that non-belief (ie thinking for one-self) tend to coincide with a liberal position?

[bkadoctaj]

Originally Posted by Zylark

I am well aware of the pitfalls of statistics bkadoctaj. This one though had over 36000 participants, making it more accurate than your usual over the phone survey, which usually only polls about 1000 participants, and moreover have its own pitfalls.

The graph really speaks for itself. Do you dispute the findings that christian beliefs tend to coincide with a conservative political position? Or the opposite, that non-belief (ie thinking for one-self) tend to coincide with a liberal position?

I'd say it's dated and probably has fairly simplistic definitions for the terms used. Otherwise how could they be so general?

Hey but I won't judge too early. Do you have a link to the source papers?

[Zylark]

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

I'd say it's dated and probably has fairly simplistic definitions for the terms used. Otherwise how could they be so general?

Hey but I won't judge too early. Do you have a link to the source papers?

The survey was initiated the 5th of May this year. Two months ago. So it hardly qualifies as dated. Here is bit of an explanation to the why and what of the survey, with further links to various findings.

Any particular reason why you you "Whited" your request for the sources of this survey bkadoctaj?

(For those that do not know what "Whiting" is, it is a method to conceal a message, by setting the font colour to white so that it do not appear on the page unless you mark the text. An underhand method if there ever was one)

[Liquidtruth]

What the hell is with the use of all this white text all of a sudden? Bkadoctaj, not singling you out, as I have seen others doing it too.

This would be better to use I think, but then again that might just be me.

[bkadoctaj]

Originally Posted by Zylark

The survey was initiated the 5th of May this year. Two months ago. So it hardly qualifies as dated. Here is bit of an explanation to the why and what of the survey, with further links to various findings.

Any particular reason why you you "Whited" your request for the sources of this survey bkadoctaj?

(For those that do not know what "Whiting" is, it is a method to conceal a message, by setting the font colour to white so that it do not appear on the page unless you mark the text. An underhand method if there ever was one)

Okay, but atheism does require faith. Especially for "strongly disagree" answer to whether one believes in God (of the Bible) and His existence.

Originally Posted by Liquidtruth

What the hell is with the use of all this white text all of a sudden? Bkadoctaj, not singling you out, as I have seen others doing it too.

This would be better to use I think, but then again that might just be me.
[bkadoctaj:] Nah, this is why it isn't as good for my purposes lol.

Yeah, but it's not to hide it. It's just addressed mostly to the person I'm responding to. Either that or it's for pure amusement. Digit did it to me once and I found it hilarious, that's all.

[Liquidtruth]

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

Okay, but atheism does require faith. Especially for "strongly disagree" answer to whether one believes in God (of the Bible) and His existence.

No, atheism does not require faith. How often does this have to be explained before people understand? Atheism is not a belief system, it is a rejection of an idea that has no evidence to support it. There is no faith in such a thing.

[Zylark]

Again with the atheism is faith claptrap. We have done that debate, and I won't repeat it here. Don't you have better things to do than forward your misconceptions even after they have been shot down repeatedly?

Do you have anything relevant to say with regards to the subject now under discussion, or shall you just continue throwing out red herrings?

edit: to repeat, do you dispute the findings that christian beliefs tend to coincide with a conservative political position? Or the opposite, that non-belief (ie thinking for one-self) tend to coincide with a liberal position?

[bkadoctaj]

Listen Zylark and Liquidtruth, all you have to do if you don't want me to say anything at all, and just shut my mouth with my true opinion, is tell me. Please don't tell me I got beaten in arguments with you. I strive not to argue with you. I disagree with your basic conclusions. Can you conceive of that?

Originally Posted by Zylark

edit: to repeat, do you dispute the findings that christian beliefs tend to coincide with a conservative political position? Or the opposite, that non-belief (ie thinking for one-self) tend to coincide with a liberal position?

Findings are interpreted individually. I would say traditionally you might indeed be correct. However, liberalism and conservatism mean so many things in year 2008 (in just America even) that I doubt we can simplify people's experiences, beliefs, and "faith" into a graph based on self-labeling as either liberal or conservative. That is all I'm saying. Graphs are nice when you want to understand what the creator is looking for, but they are no fact at all.

[Liquidtruth]

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

Listen Zylark and Liquidtruth, all you have to do if you don't want me to say anything at all, and just shut my mouth with my true opinion, is tell me. Please don't tell me I got beaten in arguments with you. I strive not to argue with you. I disagree with your basic conclusions. Can you conceive of that?

I can certainly conceive of that, but striving not to argue is not the same as not arguing. This is an argument, every discussion (well, for the most part) we have had as been an argument, every debate is an argument, and most every thread in this part of the forum is a debate... So...

[Zylark]

Oh good, the victim card was played.

But back on subject. Another telling graph from the same survey:



Hmmm, that survey is a goldmine when comparing faith and reason

[bkadoctaj]

Originally Posted by Zylark

Oh good, the victim card was played.

But back on subject. Another telling graph from the same survey:



Hmmm, that survey is a goldmine when comparing faith and reason

If you both feel that arguing is how we must communicate let me know when you change your minds. I'm honestly not down for that. Label away, oh what a victim bkadoctaj is making himself out to be. Anyway, out of personal responsibility and a desire to demonstrate for good-natured friends that I don't view myself as a victim, I'll merely end it here (speaking for me only, okay?) by saying I do not enjoy the way these "arguments" or "debates" go. You're welcome to believe I have lost something, but I feel I have gained patience.

[Liquidtruth]

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

If you both feel that arguing is how we must communicate let me know when you change your minds. I'm honestly not down for that.

You are arguing right now, as you were in your previous posts. So, while you may not consider what you are doing to be arguing, it is.

Originally Posted by Dictionary.com

ar·gu·ment Audio Help /ˈɑrgyəmənt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ahr-gyuh-muhnt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. an oral disagreement; verbal opposition; contention; altercation: a violent argument.
2. a discussion involving differing points of view; debate: They were deeply involved in an argument about inflation.
3. a process of reasoning; series of reasons: I couldn't follow his argument.
4. a statement, reason, or fact for or against a point: This is a strong argument in favor of her theory.
5. an address or composition intended to convince or persuade; persuasive discourse.
6. subject matter; theme: The central argument of his paper was presented clearly.
7. an abstract or summary of the major points in a work of prose or poetry, or of sections of such a work.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=argument

If you are not down for arguing, do not argue.

[Zylark]

Nothing more to add bkadoctaj? I just threw out some statistics. You didn't comment the statistics per-se, as would be the normal thing in an honest debate, but rather tried to undermine it by various avenues. As that did not work, you played the victim card (twice), and now backed out. Obviously, the survey found something you do not like or agree with, but are unable to argue against. That is quite fine.

A debate is not necessarily an hostile argument. But ofcourse, staying on topic helps in the civility of things.

Another nice graph from the same survey:



It would seem religion (in this case christianity) and reason are diametrically opposed. Not news as such, but intersting to see it so, uhm, graphically represented

[mrblonde77]

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