Socialism through Capitalism???

[Digit]

the capitalists have got it all sealed up nice and tight.

you dont like the capitalist game? wanna play a different game?

nah.... you cant get outta capitalism...

not unless you complete the game. have you completed the game? no? you dont even know how to?
you gotta buy your way out.
only way to win is to be richer than nearly anyone else.
you dont like the capitalist game? wanna play a different game? you gotta complete the game to get out. have you completed the game? no? you dont even know how to?
you gotta buy your way out.
only way to win is to be richer than nearly anyone else.
you dont like the capitalist game? wanna play a different game? you gotta complete the game to get out. have you completed the game? no? you dont even know how to?
you gotta buy your way out.
only way to win is to be richer than nearly anyone else.
you dont like the capitalist game? wanna play a different game? you gotta complete the game to get out. have you completed the game? no? you dont even know how to?
you gotta buy your way out.
only way to win is to be richer than nearly anyone else.
you dont like the capitalist game? wanna play a different game? you gotta complete the game to get out. have you completed the game? no? you dont even know how to?
you gotta buy your way out.
only way to win is to be richer than nearly anyone else.
you dont like the capitalist game? wanna play a different game? you gotta complete the game to get out. have you completed the game? no? you dont even know how to?
you gotta buy your way out.
only way to win is to be richer than nearly anyone else.



and so it goes.


so the capitalist wheel spins on oblivious.




but what if someone did play the game... and win....

many have, but then only go on to ensure the game carries on, with millions of others joining the game.

but what if someone with different ideals to that played the game.... not for the usual spoils and treasures and rewards teh game had to offer to those adept at it, but played it so they could win, get out, and make a new game.

that new game, being socialism, would negate the capitalist wheel.

since we all exist in capitalist societies, everything costs us, we cannot do anything without currency. so this includes starting up a new social experiment. it costs money. this is inescapable... the capitalists made sure of it. no fucking chance they were gonna let people run off and play a new game. you have to play thiers first. or at least... thats how it is now.

what if tomorrow we can all just sign up and start playing a new game.

if someone had set it up, it would be easy.

instead of whole new big nations being "subverted" to alternate means of government and system, we just started sprouting little pockets of socialism inside capitalist nations. each socialist pocket capable of being completely linked to every other of similar ideology.

could it not happen?

[joshy]

The next wheel is Commuism, well according to Marx who well made this wheel. I'll put it simply like this. With capitalism I can own what I want, what I need, what I think is right. Socialism forces its idea of what is right down the throats of its subjects. The government should serve the people, NOT the other way around. And to be quite blunt, other people's problems are not mine. I'm not paying for other people's healthcare, medicine, homes, or anything else. I'm a capitalist, I'm not a socialist. I learned all about Marxism, and I thought Socialism was a good thing, I then grew up and remember, its should be MY choice to do what I want with MY money throught hard work I performed to get it. I don't need the government sending to places it doesn't belong. Capitalism is fucked up no doubt, but it works. Theres a little saying I'll close with "A liberial is a socialist in denial, a socialist is a communist in denial. A communist is a liberal and socialist and proud to be it"

[Digit]

capitalism does not fucking work.
unless.... unless thats the plan... to make sure that loads of people dont have and few people do have. .. yeah what a great system! :|

there was a little contradiction in what you say though. on one hand u say that communism forces it's ideals down the throats of its "subjects"*, yet then you finish of with those pretty cool analogies.... the two contradict. how can it be liberal, yet forcing ideals upon anyone? and besides... what do you think right wing authoritarian capitalism is doing? we get truck loads of their crap shoved down our throats every day.. we accept it because its "the norm".

*i thought that was just a monarchy thing. wouldnt it be citizen or comrade or brothers and sisters? something like that. definately NOT subjects anyway.

[joshy]

Capitalism does work, the Brit Empire and America have been around a LONG time running capitalism at its finest. It teaches 1 moral, you can have ANYTHING you want, but you have to work for it. Money rules the world Digit, wheater it is feudalism, capitialism, sociolism, or communism, its all about the benjamins (or pounds in your part of the world). My example about forcing with sociolism:

With capitalism, I can buy what I want, with my money, yes taxes are inevitable, but I can get what I want when I want, my money goes where I spend it. With sociolism I can do the same thing, but my money gets sliced in half, because I HAVE to help society better itself. It becomes the government telling me what I have to spend my money on. Its called a "Mommy" state because its like a Mother telling you to be nice, to help everybody. I believe firmly beleive the old saying by teaching a man to fish he will eat for a lifetime, not by feeding him with my food everyday. The bottom line is this: Capitalism DOES work, it has its problems, but it works.

PS: Digit, I love ya man, your the exact opposite of me, and it leads to great conversations.

[Digit]

yeah, capitalism works if you're a greedy bastard willing to fuck people over. after all, thats the premis that capitalism works on right? people are greedy and so the system needs to accomodate for that right?

ok then. fine. it works.
...is that REALLY how we want things to work?? a tiny proportion of super rich with more money and power than is ever going to be necessary, and the vast masses either struggling for enough food and water, or struggling to maintain what they get so they dont slip further down into relative poverty back to struggling for enough food and water.

oh yeah... capitalism really "works" alright.

imagine what humanity could acheive if we were'nt all struggling for our own survival. imagine what could be possable if our survival was basically taken care of, giving us all the time to pusue more interesting and challenging endevours.

we've already seen this to some extent. there have been many great leaps and bounds that have allowed humans far better odds. the earliest probably being the development of agriculture. Once people no longer needed to spend all their time hunting, creativity seemed to spring from no where. greater diversity in society occured. Another great leap has been in this last century... technology. mechanised automation of factories for example. The title of this thread might be "Socialism through Capitalism", but thats only because we're in capitalism now... what can REALLY aid Socialism, is technology. All those people who are part of the capitalist machine are only part of it for teh sake of keeping the money ticking over. its completely unecessary. how many times have we heard things about companies being unable to improve productivity and efficiencey because it would cost jobs. w t f !? capitalism has reached its end if it is now holding us back. do you think those people really want those jobs? is that really what they want to be doing with their lives? no. i doubt it. the only reason they want to cling to their jobs is their pay packet at the end of each month. Hello wellfare state. ;p

Socialism, like democracy, is a process, one that developes, grows and improves. or at least, thats how its supposed to be *coughamericacough* hehe. so what drives that process or development and improvement. in socialism and democracy (asuming it is as it is on paper and not corrupted by ... by... say capitalism for example. religion could be another) it is the people who are the guiding force. "power to the people"? sound familiar? it should. thats how things are supposed to be. with capitalism however, the only true guiding force is profitability. cant you see why thats a fundamentally bad idea? i hope so, i dont want to have to explain it cos i know i'd only end up using a billion different examples. We do our best to keep capitalism in check.. but thats not enough. We no longer live in "liberal democracies" as we are lead to believe. We live in Capitalist democracies. Capitalism cannot be controlled and kept in check. It's power extends too far and to deap. and its only getting more so. the only answer i see to this destruction of the very fabric of society is to grow a new society along side (even INSIDE) capitalism until the beast finally falls.

now if i understand socialism at all, money would eventually be phased out. it is an unecessary glitch in the system. in my opinion anyways. if left liberal ideals were followed to the extreme, money would, through all the various means of achieving better equality, basically become meaningless. it already is meaningless really when you think about it. its nothing more than numbers jumping around through the system in big loops and circles. only problem is peoples greed. there are those who manage to syphon off enough money for themselve and more, and the more money you have, the more money you can get.

fucked.

capitalism is fucked and its fucking us.

rant fin.


ps. yeah joshy. same to u too.
hurrah for diversity.

[Thurgood420]

Touche!

[Buzz]

Originally posted by Digit
yeah, capitalism works if you're a greedy bastard willing to fuck people over.

... what can REALLY aid Socialism, is technology.


now if i understand socialism at all, money would eventually be phased out. it is an unecessary glitch in the system. in my opinion anyways. if left liberal ideals were followed to the extreme, money would, through all the various means of achieving better equality, basically become meaningless.

Digit ma man, you're heart is in the right place, but you're aiming at the wrong demon...Capitalism and money isn't the problem, Socialism is...if we're talking about 2 economic systems and what kind of social and political systems spring from them, I'll take capitalism every damn time.

The beauty of capitalism is that it works efficiently and automatically. If "Economics" is "the distribution of limited natural resources to fulfill Man's unlimited wants & needs" then capitalism is the best way to spread the goods, bar none. It may not always be the most equitable, but it automatically takes care of all of the billions of price, supply & demand decisions that occur daily in an economy. In a socialist economy, the central government's got to make those decisions. The result, a repressive central government, fewer civil liberties, not enough of the goods people want, too much crap that nobody wants and a currency that isn't worth sh*t. Want some examples in the real world? Look at the former Soviet Union, China and the last dinosaur: Cuba. Their economies all suck(ed), their people had a terrible medical, food & clothing shortages, let alone getting modern electronics etc. and they lived in a police state.

Oh yeah, Capitalism oppresses people. Well, what were the socialist parties doing to their citizens that didn't like the way the party was running things? You don't like a few people getting rich in the Capitalist system? What about the party elite in any socialist country? Look at Cuba & N. Korea today. Talk about oppressing the masses!

Capitalism isn't perfect. For example, it doesn't care about the ecology, it doesn't care about the arts, etc. However, for the past 100 years, the leading "capitalist" democracies of the world have become increasingly socialist: medicade, social security, progressive income taxes, supporting organized labor, equal rights and civil liberties. These are the luxeries that capitalistic democracies afford us. We've become more socialist, not more capitalistic, while the former socialist states have trashed their socialistic ideals and jumped feet first into capitalism.

At least with our capitalistic system we can vote out the jerks running the country if they're screwing us. As much as businesses try to influence government, they don't vote, we do and we elect our representatives. As long as we stick together, make our opinions heard and vote, we will continue to enjoy the freedoms our societies have worked & died for for over the centuries.


PEACE

[Digit]

Originally posted by Buzz



Digit ma man, you're heart is in the right place, but you're aiming at the wrong demon...Capitalism and money isn't the problem, Socialism is...if we're talking about 2 economic systems and what kind of social and political systems spring from them, I'll take capitalism every damn time.

The beauty of capitalism is that it works efficiently and automatically. If "Economics" is "the distribution of limited natural resources to fulfill Man's unlimited wants & needs" then capitalism is the best way to spread the goods, bar none.

yeah, you wanna bring issues of natural resources and environment into this too? modern socialists care far more about those natural resources than capitalists do. capitalism would bleed teh world dry for every penny it has then find something else to make money from. socialism would deploy an overall strategy that would both provide and preserve. sounds to me like a far better solution than the chaotic free for all money grabbing stink hole of an idea.

Originally posted by Buzz
It may not always be the most equitable, but it automatically takes care of all of the billions of price, supply & demand decisions that occur daily in an economy. In a socialist economy, the central government's got to make those decisions. The result, a repressive central government, fewer civil liberties, not enough of the goods people want, too much crap that nobody wants and a currency that isn't worth sh*t. Want some examples in the real world? Look at the former Soviet Union, China and the last dinosaur: Cuba. Their economies all suck(ed), their people had a terrible medical, food & clothing shortages, let alone getting modern electronics etc. and they lived in a police state.

thankfully not all governments are the same then huh?
but yeah.. thats probably the best argument against socialism yet. It's never really worked before, so why should it work now. thus why i believe technology is the answer.
and not having psycho authoritarians as your leader is a good step in teh right direction too. and of course... not having capitalist subversives overthrowing anything nearby that can be overthrown would help too.

Originally posted by Buzz
Oh yeah, Capitalism oppresses people. Well, what were the socialist parties doing to their citizens that didn't like the way the party was running things? You don't like a few people getting rich in the Capitalist system? What about the party elite in any socialist country? Look at Cuba & N. Korea today. Talk about oppressing the masses!

yeah man, thats what i'm talking about though... corruption. if we can stamp that out then it would be faaaar better for the people. try this one on for size...
a socialist democracy.

Originally posted by Buzz
Capitalism isn't perfect.

no system is. .. not yet anyway. but i think through socialism the best solution for everyone can be found.

Originally posted by Buzz
For example, it doesn't care about the ecology, it doesn't care about the arts, etc. However, for the past 100 years, the leading "capitalist" democracies of the world have become increasingly socialist: medicade, social security, progressive income taxes, supporting organized labor, equal rights and civil liberties. These are the luxeries that capitalistic democracies afford us.

Yeah, but less of the capitalist for that though. that was democracy that got us these socialist ideas put in place. if capitalism had its way we'd allhave to pay for all of it.

Originally posted by Buzz
We've become more socialist, not more capitalistic, while the former socialist states have trashed their socialistic ideals and jumped feet first into capitalism.

so, which is it? which are you gonna believe? we becoming more socialist or capitalist? y'know.. there was a time when america was more left than russia.

Originally posted by Buzz
At least with our capitalistic system we can vote out the jerks running the country if they're screwing us.

nah, you're getting confused again. thats democracy that grants us that.. capitalism is what allows us to buy our way into power if we dont like the people in power and have the money to do so. see? theres a difference.

Originally posted by Buzz
As much as businesses try to influence government, they don't vote, we do and we elect our representatives.

money has a hellova lotta influence tho. u gotta admit... enough money can influence the results of teh election, and even when (if) the people get who they wanted in power that person can still be swayed through various means by the power of money.

Originally posted by Buzz
As long as we stick together, make our opinions heard and vote, we will continue to enjoy the freedoms our societies have worked & died for for over the centuries.


PEACE

^ yeah.. i really like that bit.

[Zylark]

socialism is utopia. it's a nice thought, but unrealistic.

it took me some 7 years to reach that conclution. i was an avid socialist all thrugh my teens and early twenties. even active and a part of the socialist youth party (subsidiary of the socialist leftparty), beeing a part of the hiarchy to the top, the national assembly and national board.

i haven't left my ideals though. no way. i still believe in the essential equality of man. and that all should be given equal opportunity, regardless of background. and those who have an disadvantage should be encouraged and helped to the best of the communities ability. not too mention free healthcare and real support to those without income.

however capitalism is not the ugly beast it is made out to be. capitalism is working in the sense that it furthers competition, and competition creates winners and loosers. the winners make sure that progress occour. we advance by competition. capitalism makes sure funds travel to projects that are deemed profitable, and thus future oriented. but we need to take care of the loosers in a generous way. not dehumanize them as is done today.

capitalism must be controlled. todays situation of uncontrolled raw capitalism cannot work in the long, or even short run. todays system creates enormous economic disasters world wide. control means government rule. get the international banking/lending system under control and rectify the injustices.

as for a post i read (forget who) 'bout america beeing fucked up, and no welfare and loadsa poor people. it's not capitalism as such. capitalism does not negate welfare. look at europe, and the nordic countries. no problem. the problem with america is it's politicians who do not understand basic economic principles.

i'm done ranting for now.

[joshy]

Originally posted by Digit
.
...is that REALLY how we want things to work?? a tiny proportion of super rich with more money and power than is ever going to be necessary, and the vast masses either struggling for enough food and water, or struggling to maintain what they get so they dont slip further down into relative poverty back to struggling for enough food and water. imagine what humanity could acheive if we were'nt all struggling for our own survival. imagine what could be possable if our survival was basically taken care of, giving us all the time to pusue more interesting and challenging endevours


--------- Thats simply survival of the fittest. The only thing that separates us from the animals, is that you don't have to be the psychially the strongest. Life is a stuggle, to make life easy is cheating in life. I'm not being heartless, its life. If you don't believe me, look at nature.




do you think those people really want those jobs? is that really what they want to be doing with their lives? no. i doubt it. the only reason they want to cling to their jobs is their pay packet at the end of each month. Hello wellfare state.


--------- NOBODY would work if they didn't have to. If someone said you can sit on your ass all day, and get paid good money for doing whatever you wanted to do, who would say no? Yet, work HAS to be done. Someone has to run computer systems all day/raise crops/run a nuclear reactor/ etc. etc. The old saying is true "Its a dirty job but someone has to do it"



now if i understand socialism at all, money would eventually be phased out. it is an unecessary glitch in the system.


------ NEVER will happen. I don't have to explain that one, NOBODY would play ball, and I'm talking worldwide. The only countries where bartering occurs as a major means is a thrid-world shithole doused in poverty, but money (precious stones, livestock etc) is still there.


yeah man, thats what i'm talking about though... corruption. if we can stamp that out then it would be faaaar better for the people. try this one on for size...
a socialist democracy


------ NEVER will happen. The only thing people in power want more is more power. Corruption is a part of ANY governmental system, saying you could stamp it out is like saying you could make a nuclear missle out of a bottle rocket, and a firecracker.

Also, people HATE, HATE, HATE paying taxes. Sociolism has to be ran by taxes. It fueled a revolvution here (for different reasons), and it could happen again. People won't agree to the higher taxes. Thats why almost ALL politcians promise lower taxes. People wouldn't vote for someone who yells "Higher taxes for the betterment of the people".

Final Thought: People WILL fuck over ANYBODY for their own advancement. They will cheat, lie, steal, or worse. Its a mean world, but its reality. Capitalism is chock-full of it, but so is anything else. Buzz was right, if you want sociolism in action, then you must go to N. Korea, China, Cuba, Albania, etc.

PS: Sorry about the delay, been out of town.

[Zylark]

i don't mind paying taxes. i certainly don't hate it. like everybody else i wouldn't mind paying a bit less, but that is not the issue. the issue is what you get back for your taxmoney. i get free healthcare, if i get kids, they will have subsidized kindergardens and free school, even onto and beyond university level. my grandparents got free elderly care, and pensions to live out off. when *my* money goes to a system that is resembling fair (always a few quirks, but hey) i don't mind shelling out nearly 1/3 of my income in taxes. i really don't.

[Digit]

Originally posted by obliviot



holy shit where do you live...

its called Europe man.

[Digit]

i wanna hear what joshy and other capitalists have to say about that.


well done obliviot, what a triumph of a post. an excellent example.

[Zylark]

nice post indeed.

actually, cuba got the best health and education systems in the entire latin-america. and it's the only latin-american country that is not in the stranglehold of the imf and world bank. go figure...

[joshy]

Okay, maybe yall missed one thing that I said.... The Capitalist system DOES have its problems. Yes, the insurance companies are greedy corportations, but what corporation isn't? Obilivot, your missing the point, okay, you have free healthcare, but you still are paying for all the other fringe benefits of the sociolist sytem. You bitched about how your paying for prisonors and people on welfare, but if a sociolist system popped up, your paying for EVERYBODY. And your great state of California, is easily the biggest sociolist hellhole in the US. Califonia has the most socolist programs "helping the disadvantaged", you are in essence compaining about sociolism. In capitalism, I wouldn't be paying for some fuck that lives in the gettho, shits out 5 kids, and doesn't get a job. Welfare is a SOCIOLIST program. The point is, insurance companies are assholes, but sociolism still is costing you more than capitalism in the long run.

PS: About Cuba..... how many refugees from America are swimming to Cuba for free healthcare?