Hey Morphyx - Read Here

[morphyx]

Originally Posted by Liquidtruth

I am not a humanist.

The pov expressed implies human entitlement.

Originally Posted by Liquidtruth

This really only applies to people who believe it. There is no reason to suggest this is so, and certainly no proof for it coming down the pipe.

If God declared it? Your disbelief will not negate the outcome. Your insistence of "proof" is an example of implying human entitlement, in this case an entitlement of proof. In Job, God settles the question of "why" with, "who are you to ask?" A simple lesson of humans talking back to their creator.

Originally Posted by Liquidtruth

If I created a sentient species of robots that turned on me and tried to kill me, I would be well within my rights to attempt to destroy them. Not because they are my creation, but because I have the right to survive and defend my life. As soon as the species is sentient it more or less has a right to decide something for itself, that is the very essence of free will, is it not, and is free will something that god says we have?

God has declared without (for the most part) explanation what constitutes sin. Sin is a [virus] that destroys life. God will eradicate this [virus] for the common good of all who will exist for eternity. There is a [cure] available. You have freewill to be [cured] or remain in the comfort of your [infected] condition.

True love offers a choice. Love cannot restrain a person against their will. They need to have a choice available. Those who chose God will be with Him. Those who refuse Him will be granted their request and separated from Him by their own choice. [eternally divorced]

Originally Posted by Liquidtruth

If my son displeases me it would be loving to kill him for doing wrong?

Of course not. Neither would you tolerate your son to continue in a repeated pattern of that misbehavior. You would warn and discipline him until he turned it around or it escalated to the point where he left on his own or was forced to move out. That would not end your love for him, but out of your love for him, you may have to separate him from the family because his behavior is destructive to others and you know is ultimately self-destructive. That's the way it breaks God's heart so to speak that his creation would disobey, reject Him, and desire to walk away.

Originally Posted by Liquidtruth

If there is any failure on the part of a human being it would be the failure of that which created them. Going by the robot example, if I created them to be blood thirsty and unleashed them upon mankind, and they turned on me and I had to destroy them, whose fault would it be? Certainly not the robots who were only being what they were created to be.

But God didn't create a bloodthristy robot. He created a paradise and placed sinless man in the midst of it where they had a personal, intimate, visible/audible relationship.

Man willingly chose disobedience by freewill. God offers a lifetime [warranty repair]. You don't have to [download the fix] if you don't want it. Those who refuse the [fix] cannot be co-mingled in eternity.

Originally Posted by Liquidtruth

Divine selection from a being that is supposed to be all love and all good? No. Because there are better ways to deal with people than to kill them, as we as a society are slowly learning. We do not just kill people (well, some of us) anymore because they break a law we deem requires someone to die. Killing seems to be rather brutal from an all powerful being who could heal someone of their sin as opposed to making them suffer for something that is beyond their control. After all, according to the Bible Adam and Eve sinned, yet all of us have to pay for that sin. Seems hardly fair, but it is the fault of God because he decided to set things up that way.

You assume "death" to mean "to kill" from a human pov. From a biblical perspective, death is separation from/absence of life, ie God. Therefore God has never and will ever kill anyone. Their existence is transferred to a location separated from God. That is determined by their own freewill of disobedience towards their creator. They were told, they were warned, they refused [the fix], they experience the consequence.

Originally Posted by Liquidtruth

God gives us rules that he himself does not have to live by?

I assume you to mean murder? God is the judge. Not man. We have no right to life or entitlement nor to take life. God is the benefactor. He holds right and title to all life. It is His to do with as He pleases while understanding that His actions (while we may not see or understand the grand scheme of things) are always in line with His moral attributes of love, mercy, kindness, grace balanced by His holiness, righteousness, fairness, partiality, etc.

[Liquidtruth]

Originally Posted by morphyx

The pov expressed implies human entitlement.

As opposed to the pov that degrades humans and says they are worthy of eternal torment for being themselves?

Originally Posted by morphyx

If God declared it? Your disbelief will not negate the outcome. Your insistence of "proof" is an example of implying human entitlement, in this case an entitlement of proof. In Job, God settles the question of "why" with, "who are you to ask?" A simple lesson of humans talking back to their creator.

If your god does not exist I have little to worry about. If God were so uppity as to question my ability to question him it would only further my idea of him being a megalomaniac. So, if God exists and he is a megalomaniac, he does not deserve my devotion, even if he decides to punish me for it. I am not going to cower before the bully in the hopes he will not beat me.

Originally Posted by morphyx

God has declared without (for the most part) explanation what constitutes sin. Sin is a [virus] that destroys life. God will eradicate this [virus] for the common good of all who will exist for eternity. There is a [cure] available. You have freewill to be [cured] or remain in the comfort of your [infected] condition.

So he does this by mass murder as opposed to snapping his "fingers" and willing the sin away. He has his son nailed to a cross instead of wiping the sin away. I question his methods, they seem the methods of a brutal dictator and not a loving, all-powerful, being.

Originally Posted by morphyx

True love offers a choice. Love cannot restrain a person against their will. They need to have a choice available. Those who chose God will be with Him. Those who refuse Him will be granted their request and separated from Him by their own choice. [eternally divorced]

Yes indeed. If I love a girl and she decides she does not love me and instead loves another, if I do truly love her, I will wish only for her happiness in her new relationship. God, however, would smite her and damn her to an eternity of torment.

Originally Posted by morphyx

Of course not. Neither would you tolerate your son to continue in a repeated pattern of that misbehavior. You would warn and discipline him until he turned it around or it escalated to the point where he left on his own or was forced to move out. That would not end your love for him, but out of your love for him, you may have to separate him from the family because his behavior is destructive to others and you know is ultimately self-destructive. That's the way it breaks God's heart so to speak that his creation would disobey, reject Him, and desire to walk away.

That does not explain the eternal torment. No matter what my son did I would not cast him into a pit of eternal despair and anguish, where he can while away forever in unimaginable agony. lol, there is no love in that, there is no lesson taught, no betterment. As a parent I would want my child to learn from their mistakes, to get better, and to grow as a person. Even if my child was being destructive to the point where they could not be around, I would not abandon them. There is a way to reach everyone without resorting to utter barbarism. I would not throw my son into an iron maiden, I would not have him go through the rack. I would not whip him, gut him, hoist him up by a hook through his stomach, and then finally quarter him. All of these things would be a kindness compared to what god does to his unruly children.

Originally Posted by morphyx

But God didn't create a bloodthristy robot. He created a paradise and placed sinless man in the midst of it where they had a personal, intimate, visible/audible relationship.

Man willingly chose disobedience by freewill. God offers a lifetime [warranty repair]. You don't have to [download the fix] if you don't want it. Those who refuse the [fix] cannot be co-mingled in eternity.

If you believe the story of Adam and Eve, which I do not believe was ever meant to be taken literally, though that is neither here nor there. Even if you believe the story is literal (we're all inbred!!!) I would disagree with that conclusion. Disobeying god is a sin, Adam and Eve were apparently sinless, Adam and Eve disobeyed God. See the contradiction in there? That is not even the beginning. Let us say you could disobey God and be sinless, well God cast Adam and Eve out of paradise as punishment for their sin (as well as a number of other things. The First Book of Adam and Eve is an interesting read by the way.) God created Adam and Eve to be perfect, their sin took that away. God still created the current version of us by creating a wonderful rule that would pass the sins of the mother and father down onto those kids. Had he not done that it is conceivable the inbred descendent's of Adam and Eve would have been sinless and able (pun intended) to return to Eden. By allowing such a thing God fashioned us as we are. God knew us before we were born, counted each hair on our head, yeah, he fashioned us as we are.

You do not give a baby free will as to whether or not it wants to be born into sin, you force it upon it, then demand that it use that free will in a specific way so as to avoid being punished for being born into sin. Not very loving.

Originally Posted by morphyx

You assume "death" to mean "to kill" from a human pov. From a biblical perspective, death is separation from/absence of life, ie God. Therefore God has never and will ever kill anyone. Their existence is transferred to a location separated from God. That is determined by their own freewill of disobedience towards their creator. They were told, they were warned, they refused [the fix], they experience the consequence.

When I say kill, I am talking about ending someones mortal life. God's own rules setup what causes people to go to Hell, where they are separated from God and by your def have been killed by him, which the Bible would call the second death and actual death. Not everyone who goes to hell is going to have lead a life where they had any kind of choice about it. Not everyone would have been given the chance to know or reject Jesus. It was not their choice, since they had none, that would send them to hell, but God's. Thus, by all definitions, God has definitely killed people. In both of ours it numbers in the billions. This is an indication of his love? Explain that one to me, and do not use the Bible to do it. I could say I loved you while I was dipping your hand in acid, saying it is "for your own good" and you'll "thank me later" - Of course you will thank me later, right after the Stockholm syndrome kicks in - that does not mean I do. Actions speak louder than words, after all.

Originally Posted by morphyx

I assume you to mean murder? God is the judge. Not man. We have no right to life or entitlement nor to take life. God is the benefactor. He holds right and title to all life. It is His to do with as He pleases while understanding that His actions (while we may not see or understand the grand scheme of things) are always in line with His moral attributes of love, mercy, kindness, grace balanced by His holiness, righteousness, fairness, partiality, etc.

If God judges us by one standard, and himself by another, than he is not fit to be a God. If it is wrong for God, it should be wrong for us, and vice versa. This would imply that we take any special place, or be equal to him, it would simply mean that God follows his own laws. Most of us get annoyed when a ruler gets away with breaking the law, or if a celebrity does, but there are many who do not seem to mind at all when God breaks his own rules.

His actions are certainly not in line with any of that. You do not damn someone to an eternity of endless torment for any reason at all. This nonsense about it being someone's choice somehow justifying that, is absurd.

This is literally how it sounds...

"Believe I am the son of God or you will burn forever in endless torment. I did not create it to house you, it was meant as a prison for an arrogant ex-servant of mine who really deserves the punishment. Yeah, I know I know everything and prior to making hell, and prior to my arrogant ex-servant defecting, and prior to glorifying my ex-servant, and before I even made my ex-servant, I knew that men would disobey me and deserve to burn in hell. You have to believe me, though, I did not intend for man to go there when I built it, I just ran out of inspiration so I could not think of another, kinder, place to send those unruly children of mine, whom I love dearly. I did try to fix the situation, though. I sent my only son down to be nailed to cross and die so my thirst for blood could be quenched enough so I can allow those who believe in him to live with me in Paradise, this time I'll make sure there are no silly good and evil trees around. Of course I want this to be an obscure test of some kind, so I base everything on faith. In fact, that will be the corner stone of everything! I will make sure there is no evidence for any of the things I say, after all if they have actual physical evidence it would not be faith. I understand this will cause a lot of false religions to spring up, and people will simply dismiss it all... Oh well, they did choose hell after all by not passing my test, and seriously, I did not create it for you guys. I wish they would cut me some slack. After all, I do so love you all!"

There is no sugar coating it. God damns us to hell for a choice, that most of us do not even get to make, all because of something called sin that he, in his infinite and almighty power, cannot simply remove. Where is the mercy, kindness, love, in that? A loving God, like a loving father, would do whatever they could to bring that child around, and failing that, would let them go and do their own thing. Perhaps if hell was rehabilitation it would not be so monstrous... Still monstrous, but at least there would be a redeeming light at the end of the tunnel.

I wish they would have copied some of the nicer concepts of Zorastriasm, like the one where your punishment for a life of sin and being disobdient is passing through a molten river of some metal I cannot quite remember. On the other side is paradise. The more sin you did, the longer it takes to cross, but everyone gets to the other side eventually. Still a mean thing to ask, but a heck of a lot better than "Sorry dude, you failed the test, burn forever and always. "

[morphyx]

Liquidtruth: If I may, in an attempt to condense your argument, I think I see the basic premise in your overall objection to be God's justification for judgment and/or authority to pass judgment? Correct me if this isn't the case or try to expound in a concise manner.

If it's a question of God's character appearing inconsistent (the objection I was trying to address) maybe I can find better reference.

I do want to address early Genesis at some point, probably in it's own thread. You might find that to be interesting because I do believe evidence points to Mesopotamia.

[Liquidtruth]

Originally Posted by morphyx

Liquidtruth: If I may, in an attempt to condense your argument, I think I see the basic premise in your overall objection to be God's justification for judgment and/or authority to pass judgment? Correct me if this isn't the case or try to expound in a concise manner.

To condense it, God has no right to judge someone when he created them that way, he did create them that way because of what I mentioned above (sins of the father, etc..), nor is God a good god from what the Bible says of him. My issue is, even if the being described in the Bible created me and this whole Universe, he is not a being that is worthy of worship. Condensed of course.

Originally Posted by morphyx

If it's a question of God's character appearing inconsistent (the objection I was trying to address) maybe I can find better reference.

Please do so, because his character is most certainly inconsistent. His actions go against his words, and vice versa.

Originally Posted by morphyx

I do want to address early Genesis at some point, probably in it's own thread. You might find that to be interesting because I do believe evidence points to Mesopotamia.

I would suggest making the thread then.

[morphyx]

"God has no right to judge someone when he created them that way"

These are the 2 objections/claims raised: 1) God possesses no right or entitlement to judge 2) God intentionally created/caused (by foreknowledge) the sin conflict which excludes mankind from God's presence.

"he did create them that way because of what I mentioned above (sins of the father, etc..), nor is God a good god from what the Bible says of him."

Two assumptive conclusions to be addressed in #2 & #3.

"My issue is, even if the being described in the Bible created me and this whole Universe, he is not a being that is worthy of worship. Condensed of course."

Personal opinion/conclusion based on the assumption that objections/claims are true. To be addressed.

"Please do so, because his character is most certainly inconsistent. His actions go against his words, and vice versa."

Claim/objection #3) God's character is inconsistent

##########################
My task is to make a case for the following:

1) Establishing/justifying God's right or entitlement to judge.
2) Show that God (with foreknowledge) is not responsible for mankind's condition.
3) Show that God's character as described in the Bible (His natural and moral attributes) are consistent with His actions and behavior.

Would this be an acceptable format? Any corrections or additions?

[MoreBudzForMe]

I think if we come to terms with the fact that Moses and all other 'prophets' where humans, not supernatural beings. The bible was not always a whole book, it was put together by people, translated by people. I honestly believe, and no one can change my mind on this, that Moses was eating shrooms (Psylicibian or aminita) they called it Manna. A search on google will come up with tons of info on this subject. These prophets stored the manna in vessels and protected it in the ark of the covenant and kept it in temples in jeruslehem(sp?). The OT is mostly a documentation of the preservation of "Manna" for future generations.

Terence Mckenna in 'The Mushroom Speaks" explains his conversation with the mushroom. There is a maps study (i believe it was MAPS) that went over the voice or voices that people hear under the influence of psilosybin.

I believe that when Moses and other prophets wrote in the bible, that they were not writing the word of "God" but their own subconcious. But then we can get into the subject that we are God experiencing God hood from within. I do believe that is the massage of Jesus. Tho I think he stole it for himself and manipulated a lot of people into following him and feeding him. He doubted himself, He asked for the cup to be lifted from him, that same night he was asking his disiples to stay awake with him, they couldnt. Perhaps he was trippin on "Manna", I know I cant sleep on shrooms. He sayed that "all these things were done, that the prophecies might be fullfilled, and his disiples were wroth with him" that same night when he was takin by the roman soldiers. In most of the books in the NT he cut off on of the soldiers ears and healed it, in others he did not heal it. I believe Jesus was the "Son of God", but only so much as we all are. We are all stardust contemplating how all this stardust got here. That is fuckin amazing and I think its our responsability to survive as a species. We are the Universe(god) looking at itself from within. What else would a whole act on except itself?

There is hiddin wisdom in the bible, andthose that find it see the bible for what it is, a compilation of texts aimed at perserving this ancient wisdom. Some did not have direct contact with the "spirit" realm that Jesus and moses and King Nebacinezer's Son (In Daniel) had, it was passed on from generation to generation and got twisted with "small stuff" such as homosexuality and other "small stuff" . But my point is that people should NOT take a majority of the bible literally or seriously, the biggest mistake we can make is to believe that others have a leg up on us in the "God" department. Moses was raised in Egypt, the egyptians believed in Ka and Ba. Ka was the personality of the individual, Ba was the Great Spirit in all, they believes in reincarnation but not in the traditional sense of your soul traviling threw time and waking up in a diffrent person, so people can say I am the reincarnation of Cleopatra or some such thing. Its that when a person finds the truth(that we are all Ba, cloaked in Ka) then we are reincarnated, or enilightened as other cultures say. You see Egyptians did not see there "Gods" in the dogmatic way that we think they did. There "Gods" or Neters where more of a representation of Laws of Nature. The reason they tried to preserve their bodies was that they believed that once the body was assimilated back into nature (decomposed) that the Ka (pesonality) was lost and absorbed into Ba(god, universe, buddha), they also believed that the Pharoes whould become a new star in the sky and that was another form of reincarnation, that once life came about in that star system the Pharoe would be a "god" or neter of his own and live threw the inhabitant. Im sure Moses encorperated alot of his egytian upbringing into his teachings, and as such it was more of his creation, not the direct word of "God", or was it, well more like Ba's words cloaked in his Ka, If ya know what I mean.

Anyways sorry for the rant I hope you got somethin out of it, and thanks if you took the time to read it and try to understand my position on this subject of wether or not "god" actually hates, I question wether he can even have a coherent thought without our presence and complex brain to do so, and as such we should rejoice and not take shit too seriously, but dance everyday, because we are ALIVE.

[wtfEver]

[quote=mrblonde77;2476417]
Originally Posted by The Bible
Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
quote]


thats the most retarded thing i've ever heard in my life. That part was thrown in cuz you had all them horny Roman senators bending Tobie the water boy over like no tomorrow.

It was probably a GOOD thing to have in there to begin with... protect the kids...and all..

Does the bible really say that? Pffst... thats why i don't read the bible.. full of stoopid shit that always gets twisted around and why people dont use common sense when they are reading it is beyond me. Think about the TIME in which it was written. .

Don't get me wrong, jesus was a cool cat and all, and brought in a new era of concious... but as always.. man phucks it up.

[morphyx]

^^ Rome didn't exist when that was written.

[wtfEver]

Babalyon? Greece? WHere was Rome when it was being written?

So During the time when the bible was being made into "the bible" ( all the texts that were found/copied by the deciples)... and what was being decided was going to be documented INTO the bible and what was going to be LEFT out of the bible..... during THAT time... Toby the water boy was not getting raped?

Your a wealth of information, and i'm here to soak you up!

[Liquidtruth]

Originally Posted by morphyx

"God has no right to judge someone when he created them that way"

These are the 2 objections/claims raised: 1) God possesses no right or entitlement to judge 2) God intentionally created/caused (by foreknowledge) the sin conflict which excludes mankind from God's presence.

"he did create them that way because of what I mentioned above (sins of the father, etc..), nor is God a good god from what the Bible says of him."

Two assumptive conclusions to be addressed in #2 & #3.

"My issue is, even if the being described in the Bible created me and this whole Universe, he is not a being that is worthy of worship. Condensed of course."

Personal opinion/conclusion based on the assumption that objections/claims are true. To be addressed.

"Please do so, because his character is most certainly inconsistent. His actions go against his words, and vice versa."

Claim/objection #3) God's character is inconsistent

##########################
My task is to make a case for the following:

1) Establishing/justifying God's right or entitlement to judge.
2) Show that God (with foreknowledge) is not responsible for mankind's condition.
3) Show that God's character as described in the Bible (His natural and moral attributes) are consistent with His actions and behavior.

Would this be an acceptable format? Any corrections or additions?

Will you cite a Bible passage where God is claiming to be good? That is all it would be you know, if a man on top of a bell tower is raining bullets upon peoples heads while shouting of his good nature and love for mankind, it is pretty doubtful that it is true. Will you cite me a passage from the Bible that will have other people claiming God to be a loving god? Again, simply a claim, and other actions would cast a serious doubt on the issue. Will you tell me of an act of mercy he said he committed? In an ocean of committed horrors a few good acts seem to go a terribly long way.

So, sure, that would be an acceptable format, I don't think I have anything to add to it, lol, I correct the "based on assumption" terminology that is in your post. It is based on knowledge of the Bible and the actions of the vengeful desert god of Abraham. I will probably have questions afterwards, however.

I will answer Claim/objection #3) God's character is inconsistent, now, as you may want to take it into consideration when forming your reply. It is to long to add here, so I will give you a link. Click Here. It probably covers a lot more than claim #3, though.

I will exit with April Bible Quotes (only 10 days to save space):

Originally Posted by April Bible Quotes

Bible Quote for April 30
Death for Blasphemy
One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

Bible Quote for April 29
Hate Others
Now, our God, what shall we say after this? For we have forsaken Your commandments, which You have commanded by Your servants the prophets, saying, "The land which you are entering to possess is an unclean land with the uncleanness of the peoples of the lands, with their abominations which have filled it from end to end and with their impurity. So now do not give your daughters to their sons nor take their daughters to your sons, and never seek their peace or their prosperity, that you may be strong and eat the good things of the land and leave it as an inheritance to your sons forever." (Ezra 9:10-12 NAS)

Bible Quotes for April 28
No Mixed Marriages
But then the Jewish leaders came to me and said, "Many of the people of Israel, and even some of the priests and Levites, have not kept themselves separate from the other peoples living in the land. They have taken up the detestable practices of the Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Jebusites, Ammonites, Moabites, Egyptians, and Amorites. For the men of Israel have married women from these people and have taken them as wives for their sons. So the holy race has become polluted by these mixed marriages. To make matters worse, the officials and leaders are some of the worst offenders." (Ezra 9:1-2 NLT)

Bible Quote for April 27
Don’t Trim Your Beard
(The Lord Speaking) Do not clip your hair at the temples, nor trim the edges of your beard. (Leviticus 19:27 NAB)

Bible Quotes for April 26
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Bible Quote for April 25
Beating Slaves is OK
The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

Bible Quotes for April 24
The Wrath of God
At the wrath of the Lord of hosts the land quakes, and the people are like fuel for fire; No man spares his brother, each devours the flesh of his neighbor. (Isaiah 9:18)

Bible Quote for April 23
God Hates Amalek
As a result, Joshua and his troops were able to crush the army of Amalek. Then the LORD instructed Moses, "Write this down as a permanent record, and announce it to Joshua: I will blot out every trace of Amalek from under heaven." Moses built an altar there and called it "The LORD Is My Banner." He said, "They have dared to raise their fist against the LORD's throne, so now the LORD will be at war with Amalek generation after generation. (Exodus 17:13-16 NLT)

Bible Quotes for April 22
Kill Your Neighbors
(Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, "All of you who are on the LORD's side, come over here and join me." And all the Levites came. He told them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors." The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing." (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)

Bible Quote for April 21
Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

http://www.evilbible.com/April.htm

[mrblonde77]

Originally Posted by morphyx

^^ Rome didn't exist when that was written.

Huh? What do you mean it didn't exist? All this shit that you claim took place, happened during the time of the Roman Empire....

[la vie demain]

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha......haha hah...loloahahaha.. MORPHX U CRACK ME UP BRO

[morphyx]

Every conflict comes down to a matter of perspective. Even when circumstances arise outside of our control, which they often do, we're faced with a choice to place ourselves on the side of right. Even when it's unpopular; even when we don't understand the bigger picture; even when the loss is incomprehensible.

The question that the Bible doesn't seem to answer and God doesn't address directly is, why? The silence of this answer throughout scripture appears to be deafening. Why earth? Why man? Why sin, hate, death, struggle, pain, war, hurt fear, etc. Why?

Wouldn't it be easier if God just made earth, put man on it, and everything stay perfect while God remains visible, audible, and everyone knows whats going on? Surely if God created a paradise where sin didn't exist everyone would be happy, right? Even with free will, we would choose God because we saw Him, saw His power, witnessed Him creating things, we would know without a doubt who He was and what He could do. Doesn't that make sense?

But, that's exactly what did exist long before the earth and mankind were ever created. The Bible isn't entirely silent on the why question, but is does take some reading and putting the details together. You probably know where this is going, but it has to be considered and looked at because it most likely answers the why.

Job 1 & 2 likely reveal the type of conversation that took place and challenge that was made, Revelation 12 tells us about the war, Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 tell us part of what happened and will happen in the future.

The very essence of sin is this - the five "I wills" of Lucifer:

For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High [Isa. 14:13-14].

"This is sin in embryo. This is the evolution of evil. It began by a creature setting his will against the will of God. As a free moral agent, the creature must be allowed to do this. It is nonsense to talk about a creature who has a free moral will, who can do anything he wants to, but is restricted in his movements in a certain area. Lucifer had a free will." - J.Vernon McGhee

"I will" is the primary sin of mankind. Everything that man does in opposition to God's law is a direct outworking of I will. Here comes little bitty puffed-up creature man, beating his chest and shaking a fist to the sky, who says to God, "I won't do what You want me to do. I am going to do it my way." That is exactly what man is saying today. The origin of this disobedience is Lucifer.

From Job, we can gather that the challenge may have gone down something like this:

Lucifer: "So, God... You call this freewill? Everyone can see you and everything you do. Of course they believe in you and trust you...they don't have a choice. If you created a new race and location where we are both virtually unseen? I can get them to follow me and not you. And when I do? I will be god."

Paradise existed before Earth and Eden. There was a some sort of challenge, conflict, and a war. That war is raging on today behind the scenes. On the line are the souls of mankind. It's not about a game being played, it's about the ultimate and utter destruction of sin for the betterment of eternity. The picture is bigger than we can comprehend.

So, the setup is complete. True love offers a true choice. Freewill must have a real choice to make. Faith and belief will be necessary elements to trust in and choose God. The next matter is of foreknowledge.

[CosmicSerpent]

Do any of you understand what antinomianism is?

And actually, the book of Leviticus is believed to have been written around 1400 BC, 900 years before the Roman Republic, and 1300 years before the Roman Empire. Ancient Greece was in the Mycenaean period and had no knowledge of the Jewish religion.

[mrblonde77]

Originally Posted by CosmicSerpent

Do any of you understand what antinomianism is?

I didn't, but just read a few things about it on Wikipedia, thanks for the term. But the problem with that is if the book is the "Word of God" (the entire thing) then why would he write such distasteful passages, and why would you not be obligated to follow them?

Originally Posted by CosmicSerpent

And actually, the book of Leviticus is believed to have been written around 1400 BC, 900 years before the Roman Republic, and 1300 years before the Roman Empire. Ancient Greece was in the Mycenaean period and had no knowledge of the Jewish religion.

Ah, yes you're right, good call. Thanks for the correction. Sorry for the condescending tone.