Christianity has been debunked once and for all

[Liquidtruth]

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

Believe it or not, I believe there are a lot of people who degrade faith only because they do not have any. Luckily this "gap" in the (generally self-proclaimed) faithless is seemingly filled by a mouth with which to argue.

I am often surprised by statements such as these, though, I suppose I should not be. It seems some people believe that faith is some kind of virtue, even when it is not. Since when is believing in something without any evidence a virtue? And if it is, do you believe in Scientology? Do you believe in Odin? Do you believe I am the second coming of Bruce Lee? Why not? All of these things would require faith, and all of those things have utterly no evidence. Faith is not a virtue, faith is a delusion, a comfortable thought to allow anyone to believe anything they want, evidence be damned. No, that is not rational, nor is it productive, it is simply belief in whatever the imagination decides to dredge up, even if reality contradicts it.

[bkadoctaj]

Originally Posted by Liquidtruth

I am often surprised by statements such as these, though, I suppose I should not be. It seems some people believe that faith is some kind of virtue, even when it is not. Since when is believing in something without any evidence a virtue? And if it is, do you believe in Scientology? Do you believe in Odin? Do you believe I am the second coming of Bruce Lee? Why not? All of these things would require faith, and all of those things have utterly no evidence. Faith is not a virtue, faith is a delusion, a comfortable thought to allow anyone to believe anything they want, evidence be damned. No, that is not rational, nor is it productive, it is simply belief in whatever the imagination decides to dredge up, even if reality contradicts it.

Reality is in the eye of the beholder. Not everyone has had Liquidsword's experiences. I'm glad you feel that you have achieved more than those who feel they have "faith".

[citizen abuse]

Originally Posted by CosmicSerpent

There are corrupt individuals in every aspect of society (politics, business, media, etc)... why should religion, specifically Christianity, be an exception? Human beings by nature are not perfect and often make mistakes. There are also plenty of Christians who are genuinely well intentioned and strive to help others. So it all depends on personal interpretation of an ancient collection of books and the rationalizations of the different religious institutions. You can't group every single Christian into one category.

In reality most parts of the Bible discourage unnecessary wealth, greed, and the lavish lifestyle you're talking about. In fact many aspects of it are considered a sin, so this would seem to go against the very essence of what it means to be a good Christian. Again, not a good way to define the entire group.



Do you understand how illogical of a statement that is? So I could kill someone, say that Jesus told me to and it made sense according to the Bible, and therefore subsequently all Christians have murderous intentions? In reality the amount of Christians who are extremely wealthy like you just described is a very tiny proportion of the whole.

Sure, I will agree that there are plenty of corrupt/dishonest preachers and Christian leaders... many would even include the institution of the Catholic church as a whole. But making any assumption based on that would be completely ignoring Christianity on a historical and individual basis. It's like saying every United States citizen is a dishonest incapable moron simply because we have a horrible president.

There are many ways to approach debunking Christianity, but this is not one.

I'll grant you this, it's true that there's a lot of preachers who aren't as motivated by greed as some if at all. But there is a growing trend among preachers to preach what is called the prosperity gospel which stipulates that it's OK to try to get rich and own luxury items. In fact, the senate is currently investigating many of these individuals.

[Liquidtruth]

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

Reality is in the eye of the beholder. Not everyone has had Liquidsword's experiences. I'm glad you feel that you have achieved more than those who feel they have "faith".

Reality is reality, it has nothing to do with the eye of the beholder at all. I can have faith that 2+2=296,000, I can believe it and structure my life around it (I am sure the CRA would love me!) but that does not change the fact that it equals four. I never mentioned, nor implied, that I had "achieved" anything beyond anyone else (a nice Ad hominem, though). Somethings in this world are abstract, other things are matters of fact, and there are yet more things that we have no understanding of. That does not mean we should believe anything that someone tells us, or that we dream up. Gathering evidence is the only means we have of being moderately certain of something. So why should someone throw evidence away to believe in something there is no evidence of? Why should someone find more value in the imaginings of anyone who happens by over experiments that are repeatable and give the same results each time? What does faith have over reason? Nothing but wild conjecture. You can believe in your imaginary friend, and I can believe in Santa Claus, both are equally probable, both are equally unprovable, and both are equally meaningless.

Also, thank you for not even trying to counter any of the points I made. It certainly makes my job easier.

A final question: What is the value of faith?

[JesusC]

Originally Posted by Liquidtruth

Reality is reality, it has nothing to do with the eye of the beholder at all. I can have faith that 2+2=296,000, I can believe it and structure my life around it (I am sure the CRA would love me!) but that does not change the fact that it equals four. I never mentioned, nor implied, that I had "achieved" anything beyond anyone else (a nice Ad hominem, though). Somethings in this world are abstract, other things are matters of fact, and there are yet more things that we have no understanding of. That does not mean we should believe anything that someone tells us, or that we dream up. Gathering evidence is the only means we have of being moderately certain of something. So why should someone throw evidence away to believe in something there is no evidence of? Why should someone find more value in the imaginings of anyone who happens by over experiments that are repeatable and give the same results each time? What does faith have over reason? Nothing but wild conjecture. You can believe in your imaginary friend, and I can believe in Santa Claus, both are equally probable, both are equally unprovable, and both are equally meaningless.

Also, thank you for not even trying to counter any of the points I made. It certainly makes my job easier.

A final question: What is the value of faith?

Faith isnt something you have, its something you do.....its a journey of the mind.

I'm certainly not going to wait on science to catch up to where im at on a "spiritual" level because that would put a hault on my personal journey. I'm doing what my brain was designed to do: Think.

I understand that I am nothing more than bits and pieces of the Universe itself, put together in such a way that the Universe has actually become alive. I am not seperate from the Universe, I am completely one with it. Everything within me: My heart, my lungs, my blood, my brain, and most importantly....my mind, it all came from the Universe.

This is why I believe the mind can reveal things that science cannot, and that there are some answers to some very big questions that lie within the mind itself...not in the science lab.

[PhoenixInFlames]

Originally Posted by the roach

Doesnt matter, religion has taught people to be satisfied with not knowing the answers to the universe.

Thats pretty much the reason religion was created, to explain things that are unexplainable. Otherwise there is just mass hysteria. Religion is still beat as fuck though.

[bkadoctaj]

Originally Posted by Liquidtruth

Reality is reality, it has nothing to do with the eye of the beholder at all.

Oh, so that argument you just made isn't based on your perception and yours alone? Let's be fair here. Even if you are a skeptic of faith, you cannot deny that your perception counts for no more than my own. It is because I understand this mutually-enforced principle underlying humanity that I do not wish to argue with you. I hope you will forgive me.

I can have faith that 2+2=296,000, I can believe it and structure my life around it (I am sure the CRA would love me!) but that does not change the fact that it equals four. I never mentioned, nor implied, that I had "achieved" anything beyond anyone else (a nice Ad hominem, though).

Sure, you're referring to "2 + 2" as a certain, precisely defined concept but it only matters to the person who views life through a mathematical lens. If I'm not a rocket scientist, I really don't need the technical and limiting structures. Simpler is better, you know what I mean? It's just a bit smoother, but hey, if you like complexity, I don't blame you. Complex things are beautiful.

Sure, when I do my taxes I use conventional math. I still inhabit this world, you know? You got me, yes math is necessary, but math is for me only further validation that there are many ways to understand the Universal Truth of Existence.

Somethings in this world are abstract, other things are matters of fact, and there are yet more things that we have no understanding of. That does not mean we should believe anything that someone tells us, or that we dream up.

Hey, listen to yourself. Who are you to imply that everyone, like you, perceives spiritual experiences to be dreams and fantasies stemming from deep within the mind? If that is truly your view, I must state that, in my humble perception, you have closed your mind off to other perceptions on the issue (which perhaps isn't an issue then...).

Gathering evidence is the only (pure unbridled perception) means we have of being moderately certain of something. So why should someone throw evidence away to believe in something there is no evidence of? Why should someone find more value in the imaginings of anyone who happens by over experiments that are repeatable and give the same results each time? What does faith have over reason? Nothing but wild conjecture. You can believe in your imaginary friend, and I can believe in Santa Claus, both are equally probable, both are equally unprovable, and both are equally meaningless.

Liquidswords, if they are meaningless, we wouldn't be in this discussion.

Also, thank you for not even trying to counter any of the points I made.

Explained my reasoning for that up above.

It certainly makes my job easier.

I'm sorry that you feel you have a job here. I'm certainly not hiring.

A final question: What is the value of faith?

The value of faith depends on the person's life experiences, hopes, fears, imagination, oneness, etc. You can't talk vaguely like that. That's what's known as a level four question, used merely to stress differences between our views rather than understanding that we both value the same thing: life.

For the record, I'm not a Christian. I'd be willing to say that I have no true religion, but the Taoist mindset essentially approximates my own.

[Liquidtruth]

Originally Posted by JesusC

Faith isnt something you have, its something you do.....its a journey of the mind.

Uh, faith is something you have. You have a belief, you do not do a belief, though, of course, you may act on your beliefs. Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant?

Originally Posted by JesusC

I'm certainly not going to wait on science to catch up to where im at on a "spiritual" level because that would put a hault on my personal journey. I'm doing what my brain was designed to do: Think.

Thinking is great and no one is saying imagination is useless (you may not believe faith = imagination, but some people incorrectly do), the issue is not with thinking or trying to contemplate the world around you, the problem comes about when you do this, come up with an idea, and then accept it as fact without any evidence at all, simply because you "think" it is right. Granted, you could indeed be right. The ancient Greeks did come up with the idea of atoms long before we could ever "see" them, just as an example. Should they, because they thought it was a good idea, believe it with all of their being even though they could not gather any evidence to support it? That is faith, believing in something without any proof. My whole position is, why believe in something when there is no proof? You can contemplate it, you can try and make it work, you can look for the evidence, why skip those steps and run head first into total belief?

Originally Posted by JesusC

I understand that I am nothing more than bits and pieces of the Universe itself, put together in such a way that the Universe has actually become alive. I am not seperate from the Universe, I am completely one with it. Everything within me: My heart, my lungs, my blood, my brain, and most importantly....my mind, it all came from the Universe.

This is why I believe the mind can reveal things that science cannot, and that there are some answers to some very big questions that lie within the mind itself...not in the science lab.

So, because we live in the Universe our minds must have some mystical connection to it that eludes all of our attempts to scrutinize it but will give us answers to big questions that we ponder simply because we ponder them?

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

Oh, so that argument you just made isn't based on your perception and yours alone? Let's be fair here. Even if you are a skeptic of faith, you cannot deny that your perception counts for no more than my own. It is because I understand this mutually-enforced principle underlying humanity that I do not wish to argue with you. I hope you will forgive me.

No, reality is reality. It is what it is whether we know about it, understand it, or not. I am most certainly a skeptic of believing in something when there is no reason to.

"Hey, give me your life savings and you'll live a happy life forever. I have no proof of course, it is a matter of faith."

Most "faithful" people are not going to fall for that, yet in the next breath they will extol the virtues of faith.

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

Sure, you're referring to "2 + 2" as a certain, precisely defined concept but it only matters to the person who views life through a mathematical lens. If I'm not a rocket scientist, I really don't need the technical and limiting structures. Simpler is better, you know what I mean? It's just a bit smoother, but hey, if you like complexity, I don't blame you. Complex things are beautiful.

Sure, when I do my taxes I use conventional math. I still inhabit this world, you know? You got me, yes math is necessary, but math is for me only further validation that there are many ways to understand the Universal Truth of Existence.

You seem to have missed my point. I will rephrase. Let us say Team A and Team B meet in a sporting competition, Team A wins by 30 points. The person of faith, however, decides they don't like the sounds of it (reality) and so they decide that Team B won by 50 points. There is no evidence to support that and in fact there is evidence to contradict that belief directly, however, it does not seem to matter to them at all. They still walk around and tell people that Team B won by 50 points and no matter how much someone tries to reason with them and show them that is not the case, they still hold to their comfortable delusion, reality be damned.

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

Hey, listen to yourself. Who are you to imply that everyone, like you, perceives spiritual experiences to be dreams and fantasies stemming from deep within the mind? If that is truly your view, I must state that, in my humble perception, you have closed your mind off to other perceptions on the issue (which perhaps isn't an issue then...).

People can use a device on others that will trigger a spiritual experience. People can work people up into experiencing a spiritual experience with a few simple words. When there is no evidence to suggest what they have experienced is true, then there is no reason to believe in it. It is cool that when someone disagrees with someone else they always have to pull the "you have closed your mind" card, perhaps I have not closed my mind, perhaps there is simply no value in believing in Santa Claus and pinning my hopes on him bringing me presents every Christmas?

Our minds are not perfect things that only think up things that are proper and true. Mental institutions are filled with people who believe they are Napoleon. What the "people of faith" are essential saying is, if they believe it, it is true. Since that is the case, I believe you owe me 2 million dollars, I do accept all major credit cards... Oh, yeah, but that matter of faith is obviously untrue, right?

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

Liquidswords, if they are meaningless, we wouldn't be in this discussion.

I do believe there is someone on this board by the name of Liquidswords, but that person is not me. Is it simply a misunderstanding (as in, misreading my nick) or a subtle form of mockery?

Touche, it is not meaningless. It is frightening. People make decisions that effect me (and everyone else) in this world based upon nothing more than a personal flight of fancy.

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

Explained my reasoning for that up above.

The scientific method has done the best job it can of removing personal perception from the equation. It is not my personal perception that repeatable experiments are repeatable by any who attempt them, it is simply the way it is.

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

I'm sorry that you feel you have a job here. I'm certainly not hiring.

lol, it is a figure of speech.

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

The value of faith depends on the person's life experiences, hopes, fears, imagination, oneness, etc. You can't talk vaguely like that. That's what's known as a level four question, used merely to stress differences between our views rather than understanding that we both value the same thing: life.

The value of believing in something for no reason, because quite frankly if you had a reason (evidence) then it would no longer be faith. I am not trying to stress differences between our views, I was generally curious as to what value you find in faith, a question you have yet to answer and instead dodged. If you have no wish to answer my questions and further my understanding of your position, why do you respond to my posts? The only reason it is vague is because you choose it to be, so, I will reiterate, what is the value of believing in something without any proof or evidence?

[JesusC]

Originally Posted by Liquidtruth

Uh, faith is something you have. You have a belief, you do not do a belief, though, of course, you may act on your beliefs. Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant?

As I said, I view faith as a journey of the mind.

Thinking is great and no one is saying imagination is useless (you may not believe faith = imagination, but some people incorrectly do), the issue is not with thinking or trying to contemplate the world around you, the problem comes about when you do this, come up with an idea, and then accept it as fact without any evidence at all, simply because you "think" it is right. Granted, you could indeed be right. The ancient Greeks did come up with the idea of atoms long before we could ever "see" them, just as an example. Should they, because they thought it was a good idea, believe it with all of their being even though they could not gather any evidence to support it? That is faith, believing in something without any proof. My whole position is, why believe in something when there is no proof? You can contemplate it, you can try and make it work, you can look for the evidence, why skip those steps and run head first into total belief?

Because it is human nature to form opinions, especially when it comes to their own existence. As of now, there is no evidence for the questions I have....so I form my own opinions based on what I believe to be true and go from there. At the sametime, I dont claim anything I believe or any opinion I have to be cold hard fact.

So, because we live in the Universe our minds must have some mystical connection to it that eludes all of our attempts to scrutinize it but will give us answers to big questions that we ponder simply because we ponder them?

We live within the Universe, the Universe lives within us. You can call it a "mystical" connection if you wish, but im assuming youre only attempting to be sarcastic here.

Youre a big fan of facts and evidence, so why attempt to make a joke out of our connection with the Universe and how powerful the mind actually is?

We represent the living Universe, we are the Universe alive. Every single thing we consist of was provided by the Universe itself. Just as nebulas form, galaxies form, stars form, so did life....so did humans.....so did the mind. It is all part of the same whole.

I dont think its foolish to believe that the connection between the mind and the Universe is deeper than most people are willing to give it credit for, and that we can actually find answers to some of the questions we seek by diving deeper within. It goes far beyond "pondering" and moves into tapping into that connection and achieving a greater understanding....a deeper realization.

The journey is one that comes without end, and each answer simply leads you to the next question.

I think the most important thing humans can realize is that there is something incredible happening to all of us, that we are part of something deeper/greater than we can probably ever imagine.

I fully believe that the heart of existence defies the abilities of science.

[bkadoctaj]

Originally Posted by JesusC

As I said, I view faith as a journey of the mind.





Because it is human nature to form opinions, especially when it comes to their own existence. As of now, there is no evidence for the questions I have....so I form my own opinions based on what I believe to be true and go from there. At the sametime, I dont claim anything I believe or any opinion I have to be cold hard fact.

I'm going to say likewise. How often do you hear me talking about facts? This is a philosophy forum, and that's what you get from me here. I, like JesusC, feel that I should know better than to be so arrogant as to claim I know what exists as what does not. The problem with Liquidtruth's statements is that he's relating faith specifically with Christianity. I mean, we are in a thread about it, but I explained that faith for me personally is just knowing that there is a higher-order, conscious entity. Whether you believe that or not, I do, and this is because of my personal experience. The next time you live my life, let me know if you'd view reality otherwise.

We live within the Universe, the Universe lives within us. You can call it a "mystical" connection if you wish, but im assuming youre only attempting to be sarcastic here.

Youre a big fan of facts and evidence, so why attempt to make a joke out of our connection with the Universe and how powerful the mind actually is?

Oh, I sincerely doubt Liquidtruth would be so foolish as to insult someone else's perception of the world. He should know better.

We represent the living Universe, we are the Universe alive. Every single thing we consist of was provided by the Universe itself. Just as nebulas form, galaxies form, stars form, so did life....so did humans.....so did the mind. It is all part of the same whole.

I dont think its foolish to believe that the connection between the mind and the Universe is deeper than most people are willing to give it credit for, and that we can actually find answers to some of the questions we seek by diving deeper within. It goes far beyond "pondering" and moves into tapping into that connection and achieving a greater understanding....a deeper realization.

The journey is one that comes without end, and each answer simply leads you to the next question.

I think the most important thing humans can realize is that there is something incredible happening to all of us, that we are part of something deeper/greater than we can probably ever imagine.

I fully believe that the heart of existence defies the abilities of science.

In summary, I'm sorry that Liquidtruth would be willing to exclude the possibility that something more than what can be recorded and measured by scientific instruments (which have to know what they're looking for in the first place) could exist, let alone be believed it. What monkeys we spirituals must seem to such a logical and developed human being.

[bkadoctaj]

Originally Posted by Liquidtruth

No, reality is reality. It is what it is whether we know about it, understand it, or not. I am most certainly a skeptic of believing in something when there is no reason to.

As I said, you have every right to believe that these things are too foolish to believe in, but you're up against a world of people who don't think like that. Perhaps if you keep spreading the logic gospel you'll win some converts of these. I think once you realize that the world can work with just a little open-mindedness and a little bit of willingness to forgo the strict bounds of logic, you will find that everyone's beliefs are just as acceptable. If you do not wish to see this perception, no one will make you. It's all about you.

"Hey, give me your life savings and you'll live a happy life forever. I have no proof of course, it is a matter of faith."

Most "faithful" people are not going to fall for that, yet in the next breath they will extol the virtues of faith.

Some religious doctrine you posed there. Good comparison. Not a stretch based on your negatively-biased opinion at all.

You seem to have missed my point. I will rephrase. Let us say Team A and Team B meet in a sporting competition, Team A wins by 30 points. The person of faith, however, decides they don't like the sounds of it (reality) and so they decide that Team B won by 50 points. There is no evidence to support that and in fact there is evidence to contradict that belief directly, however, it does not seem to matter to them at all. They still walk around and tell people that Team B won by 50 points and no matter how much someone tries to reason with them and show them that is not the case, they still hold to their comfortable delusion, reality be damned.

So, you're going to use this hypothetical story you came up with and suggest that it has the authority of the myth of a religion of faith? Impressive indeed. You've just about converted me already, especially since you cleared away my delusional thinking.

People can use a device on others that will trigger a spiritual experience. People can work people up into experiencing a spiritual experience with a few simple words. When there is no evidence to suggest what they have experienced is true, then there is no reason to believe in it. It is cool that when someone disagrees with someone else they always have to pull the "you have closed your mind" card, perhaps I have not closed my mind, perhaps there is simply no value in believing in Santa Claus and pinning my hopes on him brin