Christianity has been debunked once and for all

[Liquidtruth]

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

Believe it or not, I believe there are a lot of people who degrade faith only because they do not have any. Luckily this "gap" in the (generally self-proclaimed) faithless is seemingly filled by a mouth with which to argue.

I am often surprised by statements such as these, though, I suppose I should not be. It seems some people believe that faith is some kind of virtue, even when it is not. Since when is believing in something without any evidence a virtue? And if it is, do you believe in Scientology? Do you believe in Odin? Do you believe I am the second coming of Bruce Lee? Why not? All of these things would require faith, and all of those things have utterly no evidence. Faith is not a virtue, faith is a delusion, a comfortable thought to allow anyone to believe anything they want, evidence be damned. No, that is not rational, nor is it productive, it is simply belief in whatever the imagination decides to dredge up, even if reality contradicts it.

[bkadoctaj]

Originally Posted by Liquidtruth

I am often surprised by statements such as these, though, I suppose I should not be. It seems some people believe that faith is some kind of virtue, even when it is not. Since when is believing in something without any evidence a virtue? And if it is, do you believe in Scientology? Do you believe in Odin? Do you believe I am the second coming of Bruce Lee? Why not? All of these things would require faith, and all of those things have utterly no evidence. Faith is not a virtue, faith is a delusion, a comfortable thought to allow anyone to believe anything they want, evidence be damned. No, that is not rational, nor is it productive, it is simply belief in whatever the imagination decides to dredge up, even if reality contradicts it.

Reality is in the eye of the beholder. Not everyone has had Liquidsword's experiences. I'm glad you feel that you have achieved more than those who feel they have "faith".

[citizen abuse]

Originally Posted by CosmicSerpent

There are corrupt individuals in every aspect of society (politics, business, media, etc)... why should religion, specifically Christianity, be an exception? Human beings by nature are not perfect and often make mistakes. There are also plenty of Christians who are genuinely well intentioned and strive to help others. So it all depends on personal interpretation of an ancient collection of books and the rationalizations of the different religious institutions. You can't group every single Christian into one category.

In reality most parts of the Bible discourage unnecessary wealth, greed, and the lavish lifestyle you're talking about. In fact many aspects of it are considered a sin, so this would seem to go against the very essence of what it means to be a good Christian. Again, not a good way to define the entire group.



Do you understand how illogical of a statement that is? So I could kill someone, say that Jesus told me to and it made sense according to the Bible, and therefore subsequently all Christians have murderous intentions? In reality the amount of Christians who are extremely wealthy like you just described is a very tiny proportion of the whole.

Sure, I will agree that there are plenty of corrupt/dishonest preachers and Christian leaders... many would even include the institution of the Catholic church as a whole. But making any assumption based on that would be completely ignoring Christianity on a historical and individual basis. It's like saying every United States citizen is a dishonest incapable moron simply because we have a horrible president.

There are many ways to approach debunking Christianity, but this is not one.

I'll grant you this, it's true that there's a lot of preachers who aren't as motivated by greed as some if at all. But there is a growing trend among preachers to preach what is called the prosperity gospel which stipulates that it's OK to try to get rich and own luxury items. In fact, the senate is currently investigating many of these individuals.

[Liquidtruth]

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

Reality is in the eye of the beholder. Not everyone has had Liquidsword's experiences. I'm glad you feel that you have achieved more than those who feel they have "faith".

Reality is reality, it has nothing to do with the eye of the beholder at all. I can have faith that 2+2=296,000, I can believe it and structure my life around it (I am sure the CRA would love me!) but that does not change the fact that it equals four. I never mentioned, nor implied, that I had "achieved" anything beyond anyone else (a nice Ad hominem, though). Somethings in this world are abstract, other things are matters of fact, and there are yet more things that we have no understanding of. That does not mean we should believe anything that someone tells us, or that we dream up. Gathering evidence is the only means we have of being moderately certain of something. So why should someone throw evidence away to believe in something there is no evidence of? Why should someone find more value in the imaginings of anyone who happens by over experiments that are repeatable and give the same results each time? What does faith have over reason? Nothing but wild conjecture. You can believe in your imaginary friend, and I can believe in Santa Claus, both are equally probable, both are equally unprovable, and both are equally meaningless.

Also, thank you for not even trying to counter any of the points I made. It certainly makes my job easier.

A final question: What is the value of faith?

[JesusC]

Originally Posted by Liquidtruth

Reality is reality, it has nothing to do with the eye of the beholder at all. I can have faith that 2+2=296,000, I can believe it and structure my life around it (I am sure the CRA would love me!) but that does not change the fact that it equals four. I never mentioned, nor implied, that I had "achieved" anything beyond anyone else (a nice Ad hominem, though). Somethings in this world are abstract, other things are matters of fact, and there are yet more things that we have no understanding of. That does not mean we should believe anything that someone tells us, or that we dream up. Gathering evidence is the only means we have of being moderately certain of something. So why should someone throw evidence away to believe in something there is no evidence of? Why should someone find more value in the imaginings of anyone who happens by over experiments that are repeatable and give the same results each time? What does faith have over reason? Nothing but wild conjecture. You can believe in your imaginary friend, and I can believe in Santa Claus, both are equally probable, both are equally unprovable, and both are equally meaningless.

Also, thank you for not even trying to counter any of the points I made. It certainly makes my job easier.

A final question: What is the value of faith?

Faith isnt something you have, its something you do.....its a journey of the mind.

I'm certainly not going to wait on science to catch up to where im at on a "spiritual" level because that would put a hault on my personal journey. I'm doing what my brain was designed to do: Think.

I understand that I am nothing more than bits and pieces of the Universe itself, put together in such a way that the Universe has actually become alive. I am not seperate from the Universe, I am completely one with it. Everything within me: My heart, my lungs, my blood, my brain, and most importantly....my mind, it all came from the Universe.

This is why I believe the mind can reveal things that science cannot, and that there are some answers to some very big questions that lie within the mind itself...not in the science lab.

[PhoenixInFlames]

Originally Posted by the roach

Doesnt matter, religion has taught people to be satisfied with not knowing the answers to the universe.

Thats pretty much the reason religion was created, to explain things that are unexplainable. Otherwise there is just mass hysteria. Religion is still beat as fuck though.

[bkadoctaj]

Originally Posted by Liquidtruth

Reality is reality, it has nothing to do with the eye of the beholder at all.

Oh, so that argument you just made isn't based on your perception and yours alone? Let's be fair here. Even if you are a skeptic of faith, you cannot deny that your perception counts for no more than my own. It is because I understand this mutually-enforced principle underlying humanity that I do not wish to argue with you. I hope you will forgive me.

I can have faith that 2+2=296,000, I can believe it and structure my life around it (I am sure the CRA would love me!) but that does not change the fact that it equals four. I never mentioned, nor implied, that I had "achieved" anything beyond anyone else (a nice Ad hominem, though).

Sure, you're referring to "2 + 2" as a certain, precisely defined concept but it only matters to the person who views life through a mathematical lens. If I'm not a rocket scientist, I really don't need the technical and limiting structures. Simpler is better, you know what I mean? It's just a bit smoother, but hey, if you like complexity, I don't blame you. Complex things are beautiful.

Sure, when I do my taxes I use conventional math. I still inhabit this world, you know? You got me, yes math is necessary, but math is for me only further validation that there are many ways to understand the Universal Truth of Existence.

Somethings in this world are abstract, other things are matters of fact, and there are yet more things that we have no understanding of. That does not mean we should believe anything that someone tells us, or that we dream up.

Hey, listen to yourself. Who are you to imply that everyone, like you, perceives spiritual experiences to be dreams and fantasies stemming from deep within the mind? If that is truly your view, I must state that, in my humble perception, you have closed your mind off to other perceptions on the issue (which perhaps isn't an issue then...).

Gathering evidence is the only (pure unbridled perception) means we have of being moderately certain of something. So why should someone throw evidence away to believe in something there is no evidence of? Why should someone find more value in the imaginings of anyone who happens by over experiments that are repeatable and give the same results each time? What does faith have over reason? Nothing but wild conjecture. You can believe in your imaginary friend, and I can believe in Santa Claus, both are equally probable, both are equally unprovable, and both are equally meaningless.

Liquidswords, if they are meaningless, we wouldn't be in this discussion.

Also, thank you for not even trying to counter any of the points I made.

Explained my reasoning for that up above.

It certainly makes my job easier.

I'm sorry that you feel you have a job here. I'm certainly not hiring.

A final question: What is the value of faith?

The value of faith depends on the person's life experiences, hopes, fears, imagination, oneness, etc. You can't talk vaguely like that. That's what's known as a level four question, used merely to stress differences between our views rather than understanding that we both value the same thing: life.

For the record, I'm not a Christian. I'd be willing to say that I have no true religion, but the Taoist mindset essentially approximates my own.

[Liquidtruth]

Originally Posted by JesusC

Faith isnt something you have, its something you do.....its a journey of the mind.

Uh, faith is something you have. You have a belief, you do not do a belief, though, of course, you may act on your beliefs. Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant?

Originally Posted by JesusC

I'm certainly not going to wait on science to catch up to where im at on a "spiritual" level because that would put a hault on my personal journey. I'm doing what my brain was designed to do: Think.

Thinking is great and no one is saying imagination is useless (you may not believe faith = imagination, but some people incorrectly do), the issue is not with thinking or trying to contemplate the world around you, the problem comes about when you do this, come up with an idea, and then accept it as fact without any evidence at all, simply because you "think" it is right. Granted, you could indeed be right. The ancient Greeks did come up with the idea of atoms long before we could ever "see" them, just as an example. Should they, because they thought it was a good idea, believe it with all of their being even though they could not gather any evidence to support it? That is faith, believing in something without any proof. My whole position is, why believe in something when there is no proof? You can contemplate it, you can try and make it work, you can look for the evidence, why skip those steps and run head first into total belief?

Originally Posted by JesusC

I understand that I am nothing more than bits and pieces of the Universe itself, put together in such a way that the Universe has actually become alive. I am not seperate from the Universe, I am completely one with it. Everything within me: My heart, my lungs, my blood, my brain, and most importantly....my mind, it all came from the Universe.

This is why I believe the mind can reveal things that science cannot, and that there are some answers to some very big questions that lie within the mind itself...not in the science lab.

So, because we live in the Universe our minds must have some mystical connection to it that eludes all of our attempts to scrutinize it but will give us answers to big questions that we ponder simply because we ponder them?

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

Oh, so that argument you just made isn't based on your perception and yours alone? Let's be fair here. Even if you are a skeptic of faith, you cannot deny that your perception counts for no more than my own. It is because I understand this mutually-enforced principle underlying humanity that I do not wish to argue with you. I hope you will forgive me.

No, reality is reality. It is what it is whether we know about it, understand it, or not. I am most certainly a skeptic of believing in something when there is no reason to.

"Hey, give me your life savings and you'll live a happy life forever. I have no proof of course, it is a matter of faith."

Most "faithful" people are not going to fall for that, yet in the next breath they will extol the virtues of faith.

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

Sure, you're referring to "2 + 2" as a certain, precisely defined concept but it only matters to the person who views life through a mathematical lens. If I'm not a rocket scientist, I really don't need the technical and limiting structures. Simpler is better, you know what I mean? It's just a bit smoother, but hey, if you like complexity, I don't blame you. Complex things are beautiful.

Sure, when I do my taxes I use conventional math. I still inhabit this world, you know? You got me, yes math is necessary, but math is for me only further validation that there are many ways to understand the Universal Truth of Existence.

You seem to have missed my point. I will rephrase. Let us say Team A and Team B meet in a sporting competition, Team A wins by 30 points. The person of faith, however, decides they don't like the sounds of it (reality) and so they decide that Team B won by 50 points. There is no evidence to support that and in fact there is evidence to contradict that belief directly, however, it does not seem to matter to them at all. They still walk around and tell people that Team B won by 50 points and no matter how much someone tries to reason with them and show them that is not the case, they still hold to their comfortable delusion, reality be damned.

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

Hey, listen to yourself. Who are you to imply that everyone, like you, perceives spiritual experiences to be dreams and fantasies stemming from deep within the mind? If that is truly your view, I must state that, in my humble perception, you have closed your mind off to other perceptions on the issue (which perhaps isn't an issue then...).

People can use a device on others that will trigger a spiritual experience. People can work people up into experiencing a spiritual experience with a few simple words. When there is no evidence to suggest what they have experienced is true, then there is no reason to believe in it. It is cool that when someone disagrees with someone else they always have to pull the "you have closed your mind" card, perhaps I have not closed my mind, perhaps there is simply no value in believing in Santa Claus and pinning my hopes on him bringing me presents every Christmas?

Our minds are not perfect things that only think up things that are proper and true. Mental institutions are filled with people who believe they are Napoleon. What the "people of faith" are essential saying is, if they believe it, it is true. Since that is the case, I believe you owe me 2 million dollars, I do accept all major credit cards... Oh, yeah, but that matter of faith is obviously untrue, right?

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

Liquidswords, if they are meaningless, we wouldn't be in this discussion.

I do believe there is someone on this board by the name of Liquidswords, but that person is not me. Is it simply a misunderstanding (as in, misreading my nick) or a subtle form of mockery?

Touche, it is not meaningless. It is frightening. People make decisions that effect me (and everyone else) in this world based upon nothing more than a personal flight of fancy.

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

Explained my reasoning for that up above.

The scientific method has done the best job it can of removing personal perception from the equation. It is not my personal perception that repeatable experiments are repeatable by any who attempt them, it is simply the way it is.

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

I'm sorry that you feel you have a job here. I'm certainly not hiring.

lol, it is a figure of speech.

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

The value of faith depends on the person's life experiences, hopes, fears, imagination, oneness, etc. You can't talk vaguely like that. That's what's known as a level four question, used merely to stress differences between our views rather than understanding that we both value the same thing: life.

The value of believing in something for no reason, because quite frankly if you had a reason (evidence) then it would no longer be faith. I am not trying to stress differences between our views, I was generally curious as to what value you find in faith, a question you have yet to answer and instead dodged. If you have no wish to answer my questions and further my understanding of your position, why do you respond to my posts? The only reason it is vague is because you choose it to be, so, I will reiterate, what is the value of believing in something without any proof or evidence?

[JesusC]

Originally Posted by Liquidtruth

Uh, faith is something you have. You have a belief, you do not do a belief, though, of course, you may act on your beliefs. Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant?

As I said, I view faith as a journey of the mind.

Thinking is great and no one is saying imagination is useless (you may not believe faith = imagination, but some people incorrectly do), the issue is not with thinking or trying to contemplate the world around you, the problem comes about when you do this, come up with an idea, and then accept it as fact without any evidence at all, simply because you "think" it is right. Granted, you could indeed be right. The ancient Greeks did come up with the idea of atoms long before we could ever "see" them, just as an example. Should they, because they thought it was a good idea, believe it with all of their being even though they could not gather any evidence to support it? That is faith, believing in something without any proof. My whole position is, why believe in something when there is no proof? You can contemplate it, you can try and make it work, you can look for the evidence, why skip those steps and run head first into total belief?

Because it is human nature to form opinions, especially when it comes to their own existence. As of now, there is no evidence for the questions I have....so I form my own opinions based on what I believe to be true and go from there. At the sametime, I dont claim anything I believe or any opinion I have to be cold hard fact.

So, because we live in the Universe our minds must have some mystical connection to it that eludes all of our attempts to scrutinize it but will give us answers to big questions that we ponder simply because we ponder them?

We live within the Universe, the Universe lives within us. You can call it a "mystical" connection if you wish, but im assuming youre only attempting to be sarcastic here.

Youre a big fan of facts and evidence, so why attempt to make a joke out of our connection with the Universe and how powerful the mind actually is?

We represent the living Universe, we are the Universe alive. Every single thing we consist of was provided by the Universe itself. Just as nebulas form, galaxies form, stars form, so did life....so did humans.....so did the mind. It is all part of the same whole.

I dont think its foolish to believe that the connection between the mind and the Universe is deeper than most people are willing to give it credit for, and that we can actually find answers to some of the questions we seek by diving deeper within. It goes far beyond "pondering" and moves into tapping into that connection and achieving a greater understanding....a deeper realization.

The journey is one that comes without end, and each answer simply leads you to the next question.

I think the most important thing humans can realize is that there is something incredible happening to all of us, that we are part of something deeper/greater than we can probably ever imagine.

I fully believe that the heart of existence defies the abilities of science.

[bkadoctaj]

Originally Posted by JesusC

As I said, I view faith as a journey of the mind.





Because it is human nature to form opinions, especially when it comes to their own existence. As of now, there is no evidence for the questions I have....so I form my own opinions based on what I believe to be true and go from there. At the sametime, I dont claim anything I believe or any opinion I have to be cold hard fact.

I'm going to say likewise. How often do you hear me talking about facts? This is a philosophy forum, and that's what you get from me here. I, like JesusC, feel that I should know better than to be so arrogant as to claim I know what exists as what does not. The problem with Liquidtruth's statements is that he's relating faith specifically with Christianity. I mean, we are in a thread about it, but I explained that faith for me personally is just knowing that there is a higher-order, conscious entity. Whether you believe that or not, I do, and this is because of my personal experience. The next time you live my life, let me know if you'd view reality otherwise.

We live within the Universe, the Universe lives within us. You can call it a "mystical" connection if you wish, but im assuming youre only attempting to be sarcastic here.

Youre a big fan of facts and evidence, so why attempt to make a joke out of our connection with the Universe and how powerful the mind actually is?

Oh, I sincerely doubt Liquidtruth would be so foolish as to insult someone else's perception of the world. He should know better.

We represent the living Universe, we are the Universe alive. Every single thing we consist of was provided by the Universe itself. Just as nebulas form, galaxies form, stars form, so did life....so did humans.....so did the mind. It is all part of the same whole.

I dont think its foolish to believe that the connection between the mind and the Universe is deeper than most people are willing to give it credit for, and that we can actually find answers to some of the questions we seek by diving deeper within. It goes far beyond "pondering" and moves into tapping into that connection and achieving a greater understanding....a deeper realization.

The journey is one that comes without end, and each answer simply leads you to the next question.

I think the most important thing humans can realize is that there is something incredible happening to all of us, that we are part of something deeper/greater than we can probably ever imagine.

I fully believe that the heart of existence defies the abilities of science.

In summary, I'm sorry that Liquidtruth would be willing to exclude the possibility that something more than what can be recorded and measured by scientific instruments (which have to know what they're looking for in the first place) could exist, let alone be believed it. What monkeys we spirituals must seem to such a logical and developed human being.

[bkadoctaj]

Originally Posted by Liquidtruth

No, reality is reality. It is what it is whether we know about it, understand it, or not. I am most certainly a skeptic of believing in something when there is no reason to.

As I said, you have every right to believe that these things are too foolish to believe in, but you're up against a world of people who don't think like that. Perhaps if you keep spreading the logic gospel you'll win some converts of these. I think once you realize that the world can work with just a little open-mindedness and a little bit of willingness to forgo the strict bounds of logic, you will find that everyone's beliefs are just as acceptable. If you do not wish to see this perception, no one will make you. It's all about you.

"Hey, give me your life savings and you'll live a happy life forever. I have no proof of course, it is a matter of faith."

Most "faithful" people are not going to fall for that, yet in the next breath they will extol the virtues of faith.

Some religious doctrine you posed there. Good comparison. Not a stretch based on your negatively-biased opinion at all.

You seem to have missed my point. I will rephrase. Let us say Team A and Team B meet in a sporting competition, Team A wins by 30 points. The person of faith, however, decides they don't like the sounds of it (reality) and so they decide that Team B won by 50 points. There is no evidence to support that and in fact there is evidence to contradict that belief directly, however, it does not seem to matter to them at all. They still walk around and tell people that Team B won by 50 points and no matter how much someone tries to reason with them and show them that is not the case, they still hold to their comfortable delusion, reality be damned.

So, you're going to use this hypothetical story you came up with and suggest that it has the authority of the myth of a religion of faith? Impressive indeed. You've just about converted me already, especially since you cleared away my delusional thinking.

People can use a device on others that will trigger a spiritual experience. People can work people up into experiencing a spiritual experience with a few simple words. When there is no evidence to suggest what they have experienced is true, then there is no reason to believe in it. It is cool that when someone disagrees with someone else they always have to pull the "you have closed your mind" card, perhaps I have not closed my mind, perhaps there is simply no value in believing in Santa Claus and pinning my hopes on him bringing me presents every Christmas?

Or perhaps there is. To say there's only one right way of seeing things is indeed closed-minded. Ask around if you disagree.

Our minds are not perfect things that only think up things that are proper and true.

I assume you'll be the first to admit that you could be delusional yourself.

Mental institutions are filled with people who believe they are Napoleon. What the "people of faith" are essential saying is, if they believe it, it is true. Since that is the case, I believe you owe me 2 million dollars, I do accept all major credit cards... Oh, yeah, but that matter of faith is obviously untrue, right?

Who's saying that if they believe it, it's true, other than you about your belief that faith is essentially worthless? I hope you'll honestly consider here whether you might be being just a little bit hypocritical...

I do believe there is someone on this board by the name of Liquidswords, but that person is not me. Is it simply a misunderstanding (as in, misreading my nick) or a subtle form of mockery?

I'm sorry. I really mistyped it. I've seen you on the boards for a long time, and I'm sorry I didn't even address you correctly. Forgive me?

Touche, it is not meaningless. It is frightening. People make decisions that effect me (and everyone else) in this world based upon nothing more than a personal flight of fancy.

Yeah, even the faithful still have non-faithfuls in their world. Luckily you don't affect them, too, right?

The scientific method has done the best job it can (key words right there) of removing personal perception from the equation. It is not my personal perception that repeatable experiments are repeatable by any who attempt them, it is simply the way it is.

That's all well and dandy, but you need multiple occurrences. Science falls on its face in the case of individual instances. That you can't really deny. Well, yeah, you might...

The value of believing in something for no reason, because quite frankly if you had a reason (evidence) then it would no longer be faith. I am not trying to stress differences between our views, I was generally curious as to what value you find in faith, a question you have yet to answer and instead dodged. If you have no wish to answer my questions and further my understanding of your position, why do you respond to my posts? The only reason it is vague is because you choose it to be, so, I will reiterate, what is the value of believing in something without any proof or evidence?

Evidence for faith does exist. You are incorrect to deny this. Nothing is proven. Faith is like any other form of perception.

[ScRuFFy63]

LiquidTruth why not be tolerant to other peoples thoughts. I don't seem to get that from you after reading a few of your posts.

The fact that you cannot disprove christianity says that it is a possibility. As far as I know science cannot even begin to explain the science of life.What gives a baby that first breath of life? If you really want to get into it science can't explain the fundamentals of anything. It will always lead to a set of forces or laws that we are governed by in our universe. But we have no clue as to why or what causes these forces or laws. And as long as these things cannot be explained I could say science is based off of something that we have no clue about.

Science/christianity is nothing but a way of explaining the world around us. They are both full of holes. We need to stop trying to disprove each other and work together , and I quote "All science does is fill in the blanks for religion and all religion does is answer the questions that science can't... Hence the never ending battle."

The argument could go back and forth all day but in the end every single point is necessary in order to sift through that which is important and that which is not...

[Liquidtruth]

Originally Posted by JesusC

Because it is human nature to form opinions, especially when it comes to their own existence. As of now, there is no evidence for the questions I have....so I form my own opinions based on what I believe to be true and go from there. At the sametime, I dont claim anything I believe or any opinion I have to be cold hard fact.

Yes indeed, because if you claimed it as cold-hard fact, you would not then be able to say you believe in it, as you know it, and that would require evidence.

I also agree it is human nature to form opinions. But contemplating the universe is different from accepting those contemplations just because they sound good in your head. What I mean by that, is let us say you believed the Earth was flat and that made sense to you, so your accepted your belief as true. If two days later someone comes by with evidence to show you that the Earth was not flat, and you still held to your belief that it was flat, then your belief becomes ridiculous. If one is open to new evidence, even if it challenges their beliefs, that is great and is really all anyone could ever ask of anyone else. I do not have a problem with someone believing what they want to believe, I have a problem with people doing so despite evidence to the contrary.

If there is no evidence around to help answer a question that you have then certainly, one must use their imagination to attempt to come to terms with the questions they have that gnaw at them. I myself ponder the nature of a creator all the time, should there be one what are its goals, why did it create everything, what purpose does it wish to achieve, if any? I come up with some pretty good ideas (at least to me), however, I do not jump into belief in those ideas as there is no reason to and it limits me and what I could come to understand.

Originally Posted by JesusC

We live within the Universe, the Universe lives within us. You can call it a "mystical" connection if you wish, but im assuming youre only attempting to be sarcastic here.

I was attempting to break what you were saying down into the simplest terms so you could gain another perspective on what you were saying.

Originally Posted by JesusC

Youre a big fan of facts and evidence, so why attempt to make a joke out of our connection with the Universe and how powerful the mind actually is?

I do not understand what you mean here. There are no facts or evidence to show that we have a mystical connection to the Universe, and while I would agree our mind is a powerful thing, it has no effect on the world around us with its thought's alone. Those who built the Pyramids did not think them into existence, they planned them, got a group of people together, and then gathered materials and built them. The mind is a very powerful thing when it comes to personal perceptions/actions/beliefs. A person can convince themselves of anything they wish to, and unchecked and uncontrolled, the mind can even be quite dangerous to some people.

Originally Posted by JesusC

We represent the living Universe, we are the Universe alive. Every single thing we consist of was provided by the Universe itself. Just as nebulas form, galaxies form, stars form, so did life....so did humans.....so did the mind. It is all part of the same whole.

I thought you said you did not believe that your beliefs were cold-hard facts? If that is true, why are you stating your beliefs as cold-hard facts?

Originally Posted by JesusC

I dont think its foolish to believe that the connection between the mind and the Universe is deeper than most people are willing to give it credit for, and that we can actually find answers to some of the questions we seek by diving deeper within. It goes far beyond "pondering" and moves into tapping into that connection and achieving a greater understanding....a deeper realization.

While I could agree that we do not have total knowledge of how our minds work and we may even be surprised once (if) we do, I am not going to believe that simply because it sounds cool and it would be my desperate wish for that to be true. I will continue to explore my mind, as a great many people do, I am not going to believe anything magical about it, though, there is no reason to.

Originally Posted by JesusC

The journey is one that comes without end, and each answer simply leads you to the next question.

This is true for everything...

Originally Posted by JesusC

I think the most important thing humans can realize is that there is something incredible happening to all of us, that we are part of something deeper/greater than we can probably ever imagine.

Possibly, I will not discount that possibility, I, however, will not waste time believing it. If we find evidence to support that, if what you say is a fact, then I can skip the whole believing thing and go straight to knowledge... I find that knowledge is a little more solid and reliable than beliefs, I also find is way more useful. The whole point is in the examples I constantly make. Anyone can believe anything, whether it is true or not, logical or not, possible or not. Thus, belief is nothing to measure anything against and is simply an illusion, even if that belief is later shown to be true.

Originally Posted by JesusC

I fully believe that the heart of existence defies the abilities of science.

I neither do or do not believe that. I would say that with science we have a great ability to quantify and understand the world around us, there are things it might never be able to explain, but then again, it might be able to explain everything.

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

Oh, I sincerely doubt Liquidtruth would be so foolish as to insult someone else's perception of the world. He should know better.

I try very hard not to engage in Ad hominems. The same cannot be said of all, however.

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

In summary, I'm sorry that Liquidtruth would be willing to exclude the possibility that something more than what can be recorded and measured by scientific instruments (which have to know what they're looking for in the first place) could exist, let alone be believed it. What monkeys we spirituals must seem to such a logical and developed human being.

In summary, further proof that people pay little attention to what I write. I do not exclude any possibility. I simply see no reason to jump into believing it as it only limits you and what you will then try to explore, think about, and learn.

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

As I said, you have every right to believe that these things are too foolish to believe in, but you're up against a world of people who don't think like that.

No, the whole world does not think like that, and even if they did, that hardly matters. An argument from popularity is not logical, and if that is the best argument against my position, well, yeah...

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

Perhaps if you keep spreading the logic gospel you'll win some converts of these. I think once you realize that the world can work with just a little open-mindedness and a little bit of willingness to forgo the strict bounds of logic, you will find that everyone's beliefs are just as acceptable. If you do not wish to see this perception, no one will make you. It's all about you.

I could easily turn that ad hominem around and use it on you. However, I believe I may be done discussing this with you after this, since you do not actually seem to read my argument and instead make up what you want me to say. My argument is not against your belief. It is against blind belief in and of itself.

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

Some religious doctrine you posed there. Good comparison. Not a stretch based on your negatively-biased opinion at all.

So, I guess you really have no wish to argue the argument and must instead argue the man? It is not really fun reading post after post of that. Perhaps, in your next post, you can address my argument and not try to cut me down a few notches because... Well, I do not know why you do it so I won't bother speculating.

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

So, you're going to use this hypothetical story you came up with and suggest that it has the authority of the myth of a religion of faith? Impressive indeed. You've just about converted me already, especially since you cleared away my delusional thinking.

I am not claiming it has "the authority of the myth of a religion of faith". I used it as an example, I could have used a much better one, but I did not feel like writing a Bible to do it. The point of it remains and does indeed apply to believing in something without knowing, and in specific cases, of believing in something evidence directly says is wrong. Nice sarcasm, I might add.

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

Or perhaps there is. To say there's only one right way of seeing things is indeed closed-minded. Ask around if you disagree.

The fact that I used the word perhaps should have shown you that I was not making a statement of fact. Perhaps there could be some benefit to believing that Santa Claus is going to bring you Christmas presents. Perhaps the hope itself would be of a benefit to someone, and the anticipation and wonder would bring them joy. That would be useful, I suppose, until Christmas comes and they are disappointed. Although, that to could be of a benefit depending on the person. Just like having a perfectly functioning arm removed can fill someone with joy. What exactly does that mean, though?

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

I assume you'll be the first to admit that you could be delusional yourself.

Yes, I would indeed admit that I could be delusional. I could be crazed. I could be a nut case. I could be the Pope. I could be god who gave himself amnesia in order to experience the boring game we call life. I could be many things, as could everyone else.

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

Who's saying that if they believe it, it's true, other than you about your belief that faith is essentially worthless? I hope you'll honestly consider here whether you might be being just a little bit hypocritical...

Faith is worthless, I do not believe it, I know it. But, to better explain that, we would have to define what I mean by worthless, would we not? Faith can have some personal benefits, it can make people feel safe, secure, even happy. What it cannot do is answer questions about the universe, come to grips with real world problems and solve them, or invent a car. Knowledge does that. So, in the grand scheme of things, as an ability to figure out the world around us, faith is worthless. For some personal reasons, it might not be.

So, OK, belief does not equal truth. So now that you have cleared that up for me... What value does it hold in the grand scheme of things? I see no greater understanding coming from it, so, what are its benefits? Why believe in something if you have no reason to believe in it? If you have a reason, what is that reason? There is a difference between belief and knowledge, and it is possible to know something.

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

I'm sorry. I really mistyped it. I've seen you on the boards for a long time, and I'm sorry I didn't even address you correctly. Forgive me?

It is not really an issue. I was just wondering if there was a purpose behind it or something, lol.

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

Yeah, even the faithful still have non-faithfuls in their world. Luckily you don't affect them, too, right?

No, I never said that. I will rely on logic and evidence to make my choices, and if I was in a position of power I would most certainly try to. If I believe stem cell research is morally wrong because I believe there is a god up in the sky who has forbidden us to tamper with his domain, I would be guilty of killing everyone who died that could have been saved by that research. Faith is fine for the average person, faith is not fine when it is used to determine where we are headed, or how we should get there, or if we should get there at all.

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

That's all well and dandy, but you need multiple occurrences. Science falls on its face in the case of individual instances. That you can't really deny. Well, yeah, you might...

Of course those are key words right there. Nothing is perfect and I fail to see why people believe that those who advocate logic believe science to be perfect. I never claimed that, nor would I ever, nor would Richard Dawkins, or Stephen Hawkins, or Einstein. Let us put it this way. We had thousands of years where faith ruled and we crawled across the ground, moving slowly in a forward direction, sometimes we even took small, or giant, steps backwards. Science and the scientific method come along and our understanding of the Universe is greatly increased, our technology vastly improves, things we believed were impossible proved not to be. So, from my perspective, science has proven itself where religion has not. Science has given us answers religion pretended it did without any investigation. We now know that god does not send thunder storms because he is displeased with us and we are better off for knowing that.

lol, no I would not fully deny that, though I do not think that applies to all cases. Science has, and continues, to explain things that people experience. Like some hauntings for instance. Fix the plumbing, it is gone. Electrical problems in a house can give one the feeling of being watched, and lead to a lot of self created paranoia and fear. People will then say their house is haunted, when it reality, a good electrician can exorcise the "ghosts".

Originally Posted by bkadoctaj

Evidence for faith does exist. You are incorrect to deny this. Nothing is proven. Faith is like any other form of perception.

Incorrect. If you are not incorrect please post this evidence for faith. Yes, things are indeed proven. If what you say is true our understanding would not really be able to grow, your computer would not be here, nor would the space shuttle be able to go into space. Your car would not work, nor would it exist, and people would be dying at the age of 30 because medical science and proper nutrition would be impossible to understand and thus implement. So, sorry, you're wrong there, a lot of things can be proven, and we have a lot of evidence to show just that. Faith is believing in something without proof. It is not intuition or imagination. How is it a perception?

To end, I know the benefits of logic and reason. I lived the majority of my life in a faith based religion, that I did actually believe in, and I have no idea what the benefits of faith are, at least none that cannot be gained by logic and reason.

Originally Posted by ScRuFFy63

LiquidTruth why not be tolerant to other people's thoughts. I don't seem to get that from you after reading a few of your posts.

I am tolerant of other peoples thoughts, I have not said anything that I would consider to be intolerant, and I believe if I had the mods would lay the smack down on me. We are debating here, and in a debate someone has one position and someone else has another. How would you have me write my posts?

Originally Posted by ScRuFFy63

The fact that you cannot disprove christianity says that it is a possibility.

Christianity can disprove Christianity. How many promises does the Bible make that are simply untrue? A lot. How many things does the Bible claim that are simply untrue? Again, the answer is, a lot. I cannot disprove the idea of a creator, that is certainly true, and I have no reason to try. There could be a creator, there may not be a creator. I am not going to believe in it, however, because there is no reason to. Also, while that sentiment is true, it would also apply to a floating teapot around mars, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, should I believe in and worship it simply because I cannot disprove it?

Originally Posted by ScRuFFy63

As far as I know science cannot even begin to explain the science of life.

Science cannot explain the science of life? How is it a science if science cannot explain it? Also, what do you mean?

Originally Posted by ScRuFFy63

What gives a baby that first breath of life?

This Link should help. It contains links to a lot of other material that you can read at your leisure, should you want to learn about it that is.

Originally Posted by ScRuFFy63

If you really want to get into it science can't explain the fundamentals of anything. It will always lead to a set of forces or laws that we are governed by in our universe. But we have no clue as to why or what causes these forces or laws. And as long as these things cannot be explained I could say science is based off of something that we have no clue about.

We have to know the why of it in order to understand what is happening? What if there is no why? I never claimed there was not a lot that we do not understand, but science is the only means we currently have of finding it out. I will reiterate something I touched on above. Religion had thousands and thousands of years and it didn't do much of anything in that regard, science is relatively young, and our understanding has literally exploded to the point that nowadays we are learning at such a fast pace we can barely keep up, if we can keep up at all.

Originally Posted by ScRuFFy63

Science/christianity is nothing but a way of explaining the world around us. They are both full of holes. We need to stop trying to disprove each other and work together , and I quote "All science does is fill in the blanks for religion and all religion does is answer the questions that science can't... Hence the never ending battle."

The argument could go back and forth all day but in the end every single point is necessary in order to sift through that which is important and that which is not...

Science attempts to explain the world around us, religion just says this is how it is (god did it all) and does not actually explain anything. It does not even explain god's motives for doing what he did. I do not like that quote because it is not accurate. Religion used to say a lot more than it does today. Science took it away from religion. Religion and religious belief would claim that killing a sheep and looking at its guts would fortell the future. Do we engage in that today? It used to say the world was flat... When you get right down to it, religion tries to explain the world around us and constantly fails. Check out the God of the Gaps, I suggest looking into it as it is rather interesting.<hr>General Message<hr>I will not bother responding to any more posts that are simply a string of personal attacks. If you want to discuss something with me attack my argument, do whatever you can to shred it, but do not debate me personally or try to imply something about me when you have no idea about me or my motives at all. I can promise to do the same.

[JesusC]

Originally Posted by Liquidtruth

I thought you said you did not believe that your beliefs were cold-hard facts? If that is true, why are you stating your beliefs as cold-hard facts?

If you are talking about this comment:

We represent the living Universe, we are the Universe alive. Every single thing we consist of was provided by the Universe itself. Just as nebulas form, galaxies form, stars form, so did life....so did humans.....so did the mind. It is all part of the same whole.

That isnt belief, its fact.

[scoobydooby67]

Originally Posted by JesusC

That isnt belief, its fact.

fact, according to your perception, of course.