The Material World Does Not Exist

[dynasty]

Please consider the following:

1. You should not believe in anything for which there is absolutely no evidence
2. There is no evidence for matter
3. You should not believe in matter


Matter is supposed to exist independent of our mind. The sensations and feelings and thoughts we attribute to everything exist in our mind (perception).

One may argue that matching sensory perceptions show us that matter must exist, i.e. we all feel a a table as flat, or see it as flat, or anything. Also the fact that we can't control our sensory experiences is proof of matter...that because we can't control how our mind perceives a table as flat, we will always have senses independent of what we may desire (I can't make a table feel bumpy simply because I think it, my senses are beyond casual thought processes). These may all be evidences of something (a higher power maybe, as some have thought ) but it does not give us direct evidence for matter independent of our minds. If all people had the matching sensory perception that the table was flat, what does this say for matter? The sensation of flatness is captured in our mind.

Think of it this way: If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to here it, does it make a sound? Well, the answer is no, it does not, sound is only a sensation our mind interprets from our ears...and if there are no mind and ears present, it does not make a sound. We might have the indirect evidence it made a sound. We see that a tree lay on the ground in the forest, it's branches broken and other plant life has been disturbed. But how about directly?

An old parable:
Two monks were arguing about the temple flag. The first monk argued that the flag was moving. The second monk argued it was not the flag, but the wind that moved. As they argued for sometime, the Sixth-Patriarch approached them and said "Gentlemen! It is not the flag that moves. It is not the wind that moves. It is your mind that moves."

[BubbleFunker]

this thread does not exist.

[dynasty]

Originally Posted by BubbleFunker

this thread does not exist.

I tend to agree. At least, we don't have any evidence. I like believing it exists though despite the erm, evidence.

[Rhythm of Life]

The material world does exist. For example I am certain my mind exists because I think I do. Having the ability to think, affirm, deny etc means something about my mind is working. My mind is existant as some material or substance otherwise it would not be able to think. Hence there is a material world. Now stretching to the area of bodies as in my hands tongue ears etc that I am uncertain of. Senses can be deceived for example when something may smell good to you but taste bad. You have been deceived so you cannot trust your senses. But a body can be defined as something with a definate shape, which we have. If not physically we believe we have shape mentally. That shape is an extended substance from our minds. Our mind which does exist. Is contained in the shape of the body which we have. So there we can conclude that from intellect not imagination or senses that we have a mind and body in the material world.

That being said I am still uncertain of outside of our body what is there. Being somewhat new to the thought process of philosophy I need more time to contruct what it is in the world around us. One possiblity I beleive possible is that the entire universe so be it is one body and everything is apart of that body yet seperate.

[dynasty]

Originally Posted by Rhythm of Life

The material world does exist. For example I am certain my mind exists because I think I do. Having the ability to think, affirm, deny etc means something about my mind is working. My mind is existant as some material or substance otherwise it would not be able to think. Hence there is a material world.

Sure, your mind is existent as a material or substance because you think. You think dependent on your mind. You can't independently prove your mind exists though, and just the same you can't prove the material world exists.

Now stretching to the area of bodies as in my hands tongue ears etc that I am uncertain of. Senses can be deceived for example when something may smell good to you but taste bad. You have been deceived so you cannot trust your senses.

I do not see this as an argument from or for anything. The fact that your senses perceive something as smelling good but tasting bad is not deception, it is perception. All your senses do not have to be in harmony with one another. Just because a table feels smooth doesn't mean it's going to smell good.

But a body can be defined as something with a definate shape, which we have.

Yes, a definite shape which we perceive to have, dependent of our minds. We all see that all our bodies look the same in fundamental structure, but that doesn't make them any more real.

That being said I am still uncertain of outside of our body what is there. Being somewhat new to the thought process of philosophy I need more time to contruct what it is in the world around us. One possiblity I beleive possible is that the entire universe so be it is one body and everything is apart of that body yet seperate.

Ah, I believe it to not be separateness, but oneness.

I wish you luck on your journey.

[JesusC]

The material world exists without a doubt, the only question or debate would be if our perception of this "material" (in whatever form it may be) world or Universe is accuarate.



Edit: I would also like to add that the example used in this thread (if a tree falls but nobody is there to hear it blah blah blah) is very similar to a thread I made a while back about Life & The Universe...which many people seemed to disagree with.

It is true that if nobody or nothing is there to hear the tree make a sound, it doesnt make a sound. The same goes for The Universe itself. If nobody or nothing is alive to witness this place (the Universe), this place would cease to exist. In my opinion, the big bang didnt happen with a "material" explosion, it happend with a mental awakening. It happend when something or someone became "aware" for the very first time.

[weedseed]

[Digit]

oh it "exists"... just very unlikely how percieved, and certainly is comprised of FAAAAAR more, and there being even more beyond the "material world" by many orders of magnitude and on many levels too!

[Smokinscientist]

My verdict is that the material word doesn`t exist, but we can debate this forever. Unless we actually start agreeing on things, which will never happen.

As stated above, there is no prove of the material world. By simply giving fundamental partciles a certain dimention, you immediatly reach conflicts with interaction interpretations. A field actin gon the particle would affect one edge of the particle differently that the opposite end, cause streching and contracting. Also, electrons having a dimension are not feasible, causing us to consider them to be `point` sources, which have no dimension. But the idea of a dimensionless particle is hard to simply accept.

[blackdahlia515]

If matter doesn't exist, then explain to me what I'm sitting on, what I'm looking at, that I'm not real either, and how you're telling me this?

[EustaceBugles]

The material world exists, it jusy may not be real.

For example, in The Matrix, the virtual world exists, but it just isn't "real."

Just experiencing this world is proof it exists in some way, even if just in our minds.

[dynasty]

Originally Posted by EustaceBugles

The material world exists, it jusy may not be real.

For example, in The Matrix, the virtual world exists, but it just isn't "real."

Just experiencing this world is proof it exists in some way, even if just in our minds.

You win the thread.

[the color green]

I think if a tree falls in the forest and no one's around to hear it, it does make a sound. Because the sound waves and energy that makes the noise still exists (it's well documented, unless a tree falls and just decides not to make physically proven and historically documented energy waves; which by god it may) but there's no one around to hear it. Plus there'd be other organisms there to hear it anyway.

[mrblonde77]

Originally Posted by JesusC

The material world exists without a doubt, the only question or debate would be if our perception of this "material" (in whatever form it may be) world or Universe is accuarate.



Edit: I would also like to add that the example used in this thread (if a tree falls but nobody is there to hear it blah blah blah) is very similar to a thread I made a while back about Life & The Universe...which many people seemed to disagree with.

It is true that if nobody or nothing is there to hear the tree make a sound, it doesnt make a sound. The same goes for The Universe itself. If nobody or nothing is alive to witness this place (the Universe), this place would cease to exist. In my opinion, the big bang didnt happen with a "material" explosion, it happend with a mental awakening. It happend when something or someone became "aware" for the very first time.

If a tree falls, it does make a sound, even if no one is there to hear it. Or maybe I'm mistaking the presence of sound waves as making a sound. The mind doesn't create sound; it interprets the sound waves, which undeniably will be produced with the fall of a tree. The ear hearing sound waves is just one potential way that we can understand sound waves' impact. I'm sure the sound waves affect other things as well.

[TheGreatOnishi]

Originally Posted by mrblonde77

Or maybe I'm mistaking the presence of sound waves as making a sound. The mind doesn't create sound; it interprets the sound waves, which undeniably will be produced with the fall of a tree..

However, back to matter, those waves of sound are only percieved as matter fluctuations. Based on the original assumptions (Which are debatable. Ch 9 of Locke's An Essay Concerning Human Understanding give me reason to beleive in matter.) matter cannot be used as a logical proof for anything. The problem comes when trying to prove that those sound waves actually exist. Using matter in the proposed matterless system is like defining a word by using the word.