Is Science a religion?

[THesCientist]

Science becomes a religion when definitions are changed to fit an agenda.

If you take any hot button issue of science today, "global warming" & "evolution" for example, the definition of theory and consensus has changed dramatically.

A theory is just that, a theory. And the last time I checked, the scientific consensus once thought that the earth was flat...

An objective view is very hard to find anymore. It's sad to see the ignorance of masses follow like cattle to any idea, theory, or consensus.

Truly I think science and faith coincide much more than religion. I put no stock in religion because it's man-made & flawed by nature. I have faith that there is a God, and that you can see his hand is all things scientific across the planet. I do not believe in macro-evolution there is no evidence to support it. On the contrary, there is no evidence to support the existence of God. I do believe that if you don't see God in science, then you don't want see God in science.

I love diversity of thought, and celebrate everyone's choice to believe what they believe. If you feel like flaming my post and calling me out...I've heard it before. Be original, and celebrate diversity.

-tS

[JesusC]

So is it a religion now then? You did not directly say that, but aren't theories the way the Science evolves? Doesn't a religion grow with new ideas.

Exactly, I didnt directly say that because thats not what I was saying at all.

Try to understand...

Science doesnt evolve through theories, science evolves through observation and experimentation. Theories only arrive after observation and experimentation have taken place. Behold, the difference between science and religion.

Science - Observation and Experimentation
Religion - Faith and belief

Is it really that hard to see the difference?

Science doesnt make its living off of theories alone, if that were the case it would be very similar to religion in the sense that it would have no backbone. Every theory would only be based on a hunch and have no substance to back it up (kinda like the idea of god).




Im sorry, did I read that last part correctly? Religion grows with new ideas?

[JesusC]

Originally Posted by THesCientist

A theory is just that, a theory. And the last time I checked, the scientific consensus once thought that the earth was flat...

Check again.

I do believe that if you don't see God in science, then you don't want see God in science.

One could also argue that if you do see god in science, its because you want to see god in science.

[THesCientist]

Originally Posted by JesusC

Check again.

Check what again? That everyone once thought the earth was flat? That was once a popular scientific consensus.
Or: That earth was the center of the universe? Or more recently (70's) that we're going to experience an ice age by the 90's?

Check what? Being vague doesn't serve a purpose.

I agree. A statement can go both ways. Honestly if you look at the world around us, in all it's amazing splendor if you will, you have to really want to not see someone's design there.

[JesusC]

Originally Posted by THesCientist

Check what again? That everyone once thought the earth was flat? That was once a popular consensus.
Or: That earth was the center of the universe? Or more recently (70's) that we're going to experience an ice age?

Check what? Being vague doesn't serve a purpose.

I agree. A statement can go both ways. Honestly if you look at the world around us, in all it's amazing splendor if you will, you have to really want to not see someone's design there.

1. Everyone didnt think the earth was flat. In fact, I believe the "flat-earth" theory wasnt widely accepted by the scientific community at all.


As far as the design statement goes: Look, people see what they want to see. People see god in whatever they want to see god in. Some people see faces on mars, some see faces on the moon. Some people claim they've seen aliens, other claim they've seen ghosts.

I agree, the Universe is an amazing place. Believe me, I have as much respect for the Universe as anyone else you'll ever talk to...im just not going to limit the greatness of the Universe to the idea of "god". Theres much more to this place then something as simple as god.

[THesCientist]

Originally Posted by JesusC

1. Everyone didnt think the earth was flat. In fact, I believe the "flat-earth" theory wasnt widely accepted by the scientific community at all.


As far as the design statement goes: Look, people see what they want to see. People see god in whatever they want to see god in. Some people see faces on mars, some see faces on the moon. Some people claim they've seen aliens, other claim they've seen ghosts.

I agree, the Universe is an amazing place. Believe me, I have as much respect for the Universe as anyone else you'll ever talk to...im just not going to limit the greatness of the Universe to the idea of "god". Theres much more to this place then something as simple as god.

Everyone didn't think the earth was flat, it was however the consensus for some time. Certain scientists of the day were punished/executed for speaking against the flatness, or universe centered-ness of the earth. Namely, the church. (ew)

It's sad that you think God is simple. Why would God limit the greatness of the universe? Without that we're all just a bunch of random chance, accidents. I don't buy it. I respect your view, just disagree with a simplistic view of God.

[JesusC]

Originally Posted by THesCientist

It's sad that you think God is simple. Why would God limit the greatness of God? Without that we're all just a bunch of random chance, accidents. I don't buy it. I respect your view, just disagree with a simplistic view of God.

I dont get the part I highlighted there?


I often find it sad that people wish to believe that one intelligent being is responsible for creating the entire Universe for life here on planet earth.

I wouldnt say we are accidents, however I believe it is accurate to say we are a civilization of chance. At the same time, I believe life pops up from time to time throughout the Universe when conditions are right to support it...which is what happend here on earth.

I also believe that life is the greatest aspect of the Universe....I dont believe anything can trump "life". I could go into my ideas and concepts about life being a seperate entity from the actual body, but I dont feel like changing the debate in this thread.

All im getting at is that there is nothing sad about believing there is far more to this place than mans idea of "god". What it is that is happening here and what we are actually a part of, its something that at this point in time we cant even begin to imagine. Maybe someday we'll come close (probably by accident), but I dont believe we'll be around long enough to reach that point.

[EustaceBugles]

Originally Posted by JesusC

Theres much more to this place then something as simple as god.

The kind of God I believe in is the more complicated then we could ever understand during our lives, and I imagine the same goes for many.

A lot of people have a problem with the idea of God because they always picture the dude in a white beard. I see God as some supreme governing force that allows the universe to exist. God could be anything from a magical ball that floats in space (how lame is that?) to the combined consciousness of all intelligence in the universe.

Here is the way I see it:

Science: Theory, NOT fact.

Religion: Guesswork based on hope.

I think that science is very important and will someday be connected with religion, but as of now, I wouldn't call it a religion in itself. However, science IS based on faith in the sense that we have faith in this world being the real world, when it could be literally anything.

I kind of have this idea that when we die, we wake up - just as we do when we die in a dream.

[THesCientist]

You responded fast. I edited...wrote God twice. My bad.

If life is more than a physical body that's spiritual realm...careful.

I see chance as winning in craps, not spawning something from nothing. Go back as far as you can, where did everything/anything come from? There are questions that science can't answer. There are questions that religion can't answer. Faith that the truth is out there is what will drive us to answers.

I too believe God is slightly more elaborate than we give credit. Anyone who can design this is obviously not a knucklehead, and may be slightly complex.

Is science a religion? No, not at the heart of it. Like I said, it becomes a religion when you have to change any definition to fit an agenda.

I don't think we'll ever have all the answers, which is where faith in what you believe enters the equation.

[JesusC]

Originally Posted by EustaceBugles

A lot of people have a problem with the idea of God because they always picture the dude in a white beard. I see God as some supreme governing force that allows the universe to exist. God could be anything from a magical ball that floats in space (how lame is that?) to the combined consciousness of all intelligence in the universe.

I can dig all that, but why call it god? When you walk around using the term god, people are going to think in terms as you discribed...that guy up there in the sky who watches everything we do. Why? Because the church has pushed that version of god on so many people that the very idea of god has become flawed.

Supreme force, I can understand that...in fact that may be true. This "force" may be intelligent, but by different standards than what we know and understand to be intelligent. At the sametime, I dont believe there is only one supreme force that created and controls the Universe. To me, it seems much more likely that the Universe is a collection of many different forces working together, each just as important as the next. Where these "forces" came from is anyone guess. I suppose its easier to believe they have always been here, and will always be here.

Its quite possible that the Universe is the only constant in existence.


See, thats the crazy thing about this place. We really have no idea what the hell is going on, or even how long its been going on for. We just kinda float around on this hunk of rock and water within it, no say in where we go or where we'll end up.....we're just along for the ride. When you really think about it, its amazing that we all dont go completely insane trying to figure out what the hell is happening to us at this very moment.

[THesCientist]

Originally Posted by JesusC

...its amazing that we all dont go completely insane trying to figure out what the hell is happening to us at this very moment...

Nice.

[CosmicSerpent]

Originally Posted by JesusC

I can dig all that, but why call it god? When you walk around using the term god, people are going to think in terms as you discribed...that guy up there in the sky who watches everything we do. Why? Because the church has pushed that version of god on so many people that the very idea of god has become flawed.

We call it god because it's the best word we have.... what's easier to say, an all powerful collective intelligent creating supreme force, or god? I think you're giving the Christian church a little too much credit, and therefore simplifying something that is actually very complex ... if you went all over the world and talked to people of different major religions, you would find that the concept of god is actually pretty vague and means completely different things to different people. Most Eastern religions for example, have a concept much closer to what was just described, not an old man watching over us and judging our every action like Christians believe. This is why I'm a universalist.... because I think the whole basis of different religions can be explained by the fact that we're human and establish different interpretations and understandings of the same thing.

Supreme force, I can understand that...in fact that may be true. This "force" may be intelligent, but by different standards than what we know and understand to be intelligent. At the sametime, I dont believe there is only one supreme force that created and controls the Universe. To me, it seems much more likely that the Universe is a collection of many different forces working together, each just as important as the next. Where these "forces" came from is anyone guess. I suppose its easier to believe they have always been here, and will always be here.

Its quite possible that the Universe is the only constant in existence.

See, thats the crazy thing about this place. We really have no idea what the hell is going on, or even how long its been going on for. We just kinda float around on this hunk of rock and water within it, no say in where we go or where we'll end up.....we're just along for the ride. When you really think about it, its amazing that we all dont go completely insane trying to figure out what the hell is happening to us at this very moment.

You make some very good points, and I think you're starting to touch on what I was just saying. I don't think we will ever completely understand how the universe works from a purely scientific standpoint. Sure, we've come a long way in our very short existence... but if there really is a collective supreme force (or combination of forces) that's intelligent in a way that is beyond our understanding (like you've just described), then science isn't the answer. It's clearly something we can't observe and experiment with.... one way that I think science is limiting is that it assumes there is an explanation that's comprehendable by humans for everything. It is amazing we don't go insane trying to figure out what is going on.... instead what we do is create different metaphors and explanations that make sense to us. That's how all the world's religions came to be, and to a certain extent that's what science is based on also. Humans are not perfect, and never will be... the best way to get an understanding of our existence and universe is through philosophy and expanding your knowledge of different religious and spiritual concepts. Contradictions aren't necessarily a bad thing.... in my opinion, they can be very limiting.

[JesusC]

Originally Posted by CosmicSerpent

We call it god because it's the best word we have.... what's easier to say, an all powerful collective intelligent creating supreme force, or god?

In this day and age, id make the extra effort to say "supreme force" or "supreme collection of forces". Sure, its a little longer...but well worth the extra efford I'd say. As ive said before, the definition of god has become so screwed up (especially in this country) that I cant bring myself to use the word, unless im speaking out against it.


Its not that im giving the church too much credit, its that im being realistic about the delusions of the religious community, both in this country and others throughout the world. The religious community eats and eats everything that is fed to them through the church, its rare that they actually stop and take the time to ask: "what exactly are we eating here"?

[Zylark]

Ah hell, since this is a MJ forum, and I've had my "I'm home from work, and it's the friggin' weekend " joint, I'm allowed to go off on a tangent. It'll be fun

Now, why do the religious hardcases often want to degrade science to their own set of badly conceived beliefs, by trying to give the impression that science is also some kind of mumbu jumbo the religious know very well their own beliefs to be?

(Yes, they know it very well. Got to any funeral, and you will not find a single happy face because they think the deceased is in heaven enjoying him/her self. You will find a sad bunch that know their loved one is gone for ever. Rationalizations and 'self-therapy' by denial as per religious conviction comes later, when the worst of the grief have passed.)

I'm sorry, but science got more authority and respect flowing in massive amounts from any nook and cranny it got, then religion ever will be able to muster. I should say 'again', since religion once had that position, but lost it when humanity started to care about what is actually true, and not settle for tall tales.

When scientists today say we are in the midst of a climate change, that have the potential to significantly alter the living conditions for humanity on this planet, the entire earth listens. All but the religious maniacs that are looking forward to the end of the world and the second coming of their zombie saviour. And no one with an ounce of sanity (which is most) cares one iota what the religious maniacs are looking forward to.

When people get sick, they go to a hospital, and get treated by doctors, trained in medical science, as opposed to seeking help from a priest. With the notable exception for the insane religious. Some religiously insane even won't take a simple blood transfusion, not just for them selves, but also for their underage children. That is not just insane, that is a crime and should be treated as such.

If scientist said today that a giant meteor will impact the earth next tuesday at teatime GMT, the world would spiral into panic. If the catholic church said today that Jesus will come back after morning mass this coming sunday, the world would crap its pants laughing.

Religion is nothing but wishful thinking. Wishful delusional thinking. It got zero to do with reality.

Science is the exact opposite. It is based upon reproducible evidence. It cares not what we want to be true, only about what is actually true. All science do is study reality, nothing else.

To claim anything but, is just about the same as saying football (that is soccer to you americans) is just like american football, based upon the superficial similarities that both are team sports wearing uniforms chasing a ball.

// Time to roll another. Got beer too today ya know

Cheers, salut, skål, prost, nostrovje, cuenco