If God created Lucifer..

[g0pher]

If God created Lucifer..

Then:

1. How could he Grow so high while still Under God's Administration since he is his own creation?
2. How could he have become the father of Lies, Seeing as God is the creator of all things by his original nature.
3. How could Satan have convinced a 3rd of the angels against the perfect almighty God if heaven is as perfect as believed?

It seems as if God willfully accepted Satan's challenge, because he obviously foreknew the events that would later occur.

The struggle between good and evil makeS God look like either a fool, or a willful challenger to game...

He created his own nemesis, Who grew to have more influence over his own subjects/humans than himself. And he seems unable or unwilling to undo this evil - but has to fight a war against it.

I see no other way to look at this than that God willfully accepted Satan's challenge
This is just philosophica reasonings - questions of 'what ifs' - supposing this all happened as believed..

Thoughts?

[Perpetual Burn]

Yeah, it's rather simple reasoning. If God created everything, then God created evil. If God created evil, then God is evil.

Now, if you can entertain this idea, I think it would help you understand this problem alot better...

Man created God in his image.

[phiegnux]

keep in mind all this is not only speculation, but to the people who read these posts, its one of two things; faith to those who believe and mythology to those who dont

i think though, for the sake of argument, satan was bored. he had to have been. he was tired of serving, and god, too, must have been bored to accept the challange. now, in the cosmologic history of things, there are two sides for people to align with; good and evil.

[Liquidtruth]

God did create evil, even the Bible is clear on that.

Originally Posted by Isaiah 45:5-7

"I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Of course, Christian backpedaling would say that god did not create evil because evil is not a tangible thing, this of course contradicts what god himself apparently said, but I doubt they are losing any sleep over that... They seem to forget that neither is good. I once had a discussion with someone who claimed that evil was simply the absence of good (lol, so people can only do evil if they have no good in them? What?), like darkness was just the absence of light. It tends to blow my mind that evil is like darkness (does not exist) but good is like light (electromagnetic radiation). Talk about having your cake and eating it too.

[Mr.GoodStuff]

^ Eh, you should a little jaded I must say. Know your Bible though-


Love your thread ideas G0ph, gotta hand it to ya. This was another great idea for a thread.

I think we are caught in the middle of a tug of war between good and evil, life and death.

I believe God willingly accepted the challenge and is part of the reason I've been upset with Him lately... I wish He would just go easy on Himself for once, give Himself a break. Maybe eternity is just so long He cracks along the line and just wants to fight for a long time. Who knows?

I like to believe The Creator and The Destroyer are twin brothers and they need each other to exist. It's just the way it goes, can't have black without white.

[shasta]

Ill play devils advocate on this one. That was my attempt at a pun.

Satan grew to his exalted position because god allowed him to when he granted people with free will. He gave people the choice of being good or bad, when people choose to be bad then satan gains ground.

God acknowledge his creation of evil in the bible. Satan is referred to as the father of lies because he is the one who presides over lies.

Satan convinced 1/3 of the angels because the angels became jealous when god granted humans with a spiritual quality.

It boils down to this: Living beings have free will. With free will comes bad decisions, from bad decisions come sin/evil/etc.

I am not saying I agree with Christian philosophy (Im with classical greek philosophy) but the bible and saints like Aquinas have answered these questions. You guys should pick up "The Shorter Summa Theologica" by Aquinas. It breaks down the highest level Christian arguments on questions like these. Its quite interesting.

[HighGrowMan]

Lucifer is the morning star -> Sirrus, the dog star (orions dog) located in canis major. When the bible is talking about Sirrus and a third of the angels, you would be smart to realize what was really being talked about.

Sirrus has been thought to be a binary star system, by modern science, consisting of Sirrus A, and Sirrus B, however recently it has come to light that there is a third star in this system Sirrus C, which is a much smaller star but weighs an extreme amount.

If you look into this further you will likely come across something regarding the Dogon tribe from Mali, Africa. Who have an oral tradition which describes the Sirrus system as containing three stars, of which one of them is much heavier than the rest. Obviously since modern science has only recently confirmed this; it seems sorta odd that some African tribe would be able to know this without any specialize equipment.

If you look into this further you will find out that this tribe believes that extraterestrial beings from Sirius visited their ancestors and gave them knowledge of the universe. The story goes that the Sirians are described as amphibious and "serpent-featured".

Now if you re-read these scriptures with this knowledge you might have a bit of a different interpretation of it.

This scripture has nothing to do with a dude that sits in some burning hot place in the center of our planet carrying a pitch fork and having horns... All of these symbols mean something... beginning with the pitch fork having 3 prongs, the goat symbolizing downward man (or upside down man... unenlightend man) and so on.

As for god creating evil... of course he did. However many people have a messed up interpretation of evil or the devil.

Many people believe that the destroyer is the devil and is evil. However this is not healthy thinking. The destroyer is akin to the holy spirit and is known by many names, of which one is Shiva. The destroyer is a natural and nessisary influance. Think about it; destruction brings new beginnings. It is not inheriently evil.

As for the nemesis; this is the inevitable creation of the hero figure, (known as Jupiter in astrology, and many other names in many cultures). Currently George Bush is one personification of this force; which is why Osama bin laden has become the personification of the nemisis.

The hero is created in order to bring in security, in exchange for ultimate power, and control. In order to do this it is always necessary to create a nemesis.

[skywalker]

Originally Posted by HighGrowMan

Lucifer is the morning star -> Sirrus, the dog star (orions dog) located in canis major. When the bible is talking about Sirrus and a third of the angels, you would be smart to realize what was really being talked about.

Sirrus has been thought to be a binary star system, by modern science, consisting of Sirrus A, and Sirrus B, however recently it has come to light that there is a third star in this system Sirrus C, which is a much smaller star but weighs an extreme amount.

If you look into this further you will likely come across something regarding the Dogon tribe from Mali, Africa. Who have an oral tradition which describes the Sirrus system as containing three stars, of which one of them is much heavier than the rest. Obviously since modern science has only recently confirmed this; it seems sorta odd that some African tribe would be able to know this without any specialize equipment.

If you look into this further you will find out that this tribe believes that extraterestrial beings from Sirius visited their ancestors and gave them knowledge of the universe. The story goes that the Sirians are described as amphibious and "serpent-featured".

Now if you re-read these scriptures with this knowledge you might have a bit of a different interpretation of it.

This scripture has nothing to do with a dude that sits in some burning hot place in the center of our planet carrying a pitch fork and having horns... All of these symbols mean something... beginning with the pitch fork having 3 prongs, the goat symbolizing downward man (or upside down man... unenlightend man) and so on.

As for god creating evil... of course he did. However many people have a messed up interpretation of evil or the devil.

Many people believe that the destroyer is the devil and is evil. However this is not healthy thinking. The destroyer is akin to the holy spirit and is known by many names, of which one is Shiva. The destroyer is a natural and nessisary influance. Think about it; destruction brings new beginnings. It is not inheriently evil.

As for the nemesis; this is the inevitable creation of the hero figure, (known as Jupiter in astrology, and many other names in many cultures). Currently George Bush is one personification of this force; which is why Osama bin laden has become the personification of the nemisis.

The hero is created in order to bring in security, in exchange for ultimate power, and control. In order to do this it is always necessary to create a nemesis.

today must be a landmark day for unreferenced research. no, is this serious? because I can't tell

[HighGrowMan]

Originally Posted by skywalker

today must be a landmark day for unreferenced research. no, is this serious? because I can't tell

If you find any of what I said interesting you can look into it more and find your own sources.

The deep things in life require personal commitment to descover. If your intersted you will put in the time, if your not you won't. If I put sources on what I write then you will asume that the article is important, and not the search.

[Liquidtruth]

Originally Posted by HighGrowMan

If you find any of what I said interesting you can look into it more and find your own sources.

Can you provide links? I do not think it is fair to ask people to spend a massive amount of time scouring the Internet in order to find reasons as to why you have said what you have. Providing the links eliminates that and allows people to go directly to the heart of the issue, as it were.

Originally Posted by HighGrowMan

The deep things in life require personal commitment to descover. If your intersted you will put in the time, if your not you won't. If I put sources on what I write then you will asume that the article is important, and not the search.

... So, in other words, you do not think it is important that you back up anything that you say and instead expect people to spend what limited free time they have at searching for the reasons you posted what you did?

[Liquidtruth]

Originally Posted by Mr.GoodStuff

^ Eh, you should a little jaded I must say. Know your Bible though-

LOL, I sound "worn out"?

Yes, I do know my Bible, thanks!

EDIT: Please excuse the double post.

[g0pher]

Originally Posted by Mr.GoodStuff

^ Eh, you should a little jaded I must say. Know your Bible though-


Love your thread ideas G0ph, gotta hand it to ya. This was another great idea for a thread.

Thanks Mr G.! Apreciate that alot man, fuck it, jus havent been able to post much in the city lately - been on the road much these past couple of weeks...

Originally Posted by Liquidtruth

Originally Posted by Isaiah 45:5-7
"I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

"A curse on him who is lax in doing the LORD's work, A curse on him who keeps his sword from bloodshed!"

"And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?"
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: i the LORD do all these things."

"The Lord commands: "... slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women and kill all the boys and kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourself every girl who has never slept with a man."

"A curse on him who is lax in doing the LORD's work, A curse on him who keeps his sword from bloodshed!"

[(Ex 4:11)(45:7 )(Jeremiah 48:10)(Numbers 31:17-18) (Ezechial 9:4-6)"
This is the character of YAWEH.

[HighGrowMan]

Originally Posted by Liquidtruth

Can you provide links? I do not think it is fair to ask people to spend a massive amount of time scouring the Internet in order to find reasons as to why you have said what you have. Providing the links eliminates that and allows people to go directly to the heart of the issue, as it were.

It's not a massive amount of time, go to google, put in a few key words from what I wrote and I'm sure you'll come across an article or two that says something similar.

I will back up anything I say, but that doesn't always entail providing a bibliography.

If you want to know what makes me say what I say, ask me and I will tell you.

So far nobody has asked that; however you have inferred that you can deduce WHY I say what I say from reading other people's writings on the internet. To me that just seams counter intuitive.

However, this defensive post has strayed fairly far from the OP's question... Which is my fault for nitpicking the scripture which was quoted from Isiah.


I think that the OP's question is better understood if you would reason that creation is not a person, but a law. (however due to the conservation of energy, creation is God, but this may be to complicated) This law requires balance, balance requires polarities.

Satan is the name given to the force of evil and Jesus is one of the names given to the force of Love. Love is understanding and wisdom, Satan is confusion and ignorance. Destruction can be love when it is in acordance with the law of creation, death can be love, suffering can be nessisary, fear is often a needed emotion when it is in accordance with the laws of nature.

The reason why this question is so confusing is because we are not one with our senses; people confuse harm for benefit, and sorrow for joy. This comes from not being dedicated to seeking for knowledge and recognizing the laws of nature; and instead harboring foolishness.

[hurryupandwait]

Originally Posted by g0pher

If God created Lucifer..

Then:

1. How could he Grow so high while still Under God's Administration since he is his own creation?
2. How could he have become the father of Lies, Seeing as God is the creator of all things by his original nature.
3. How could Satan have convinced a 3rd of the angels against the perfect almighty God if heaven is as perfect as believed?

It seems as if God willfully accepted Satan's challenge, because he obviously foreknew the events that would later occur.

The struggle between good and evil makeS God look like either a fool, or a willful challenger to game...

He created his own nemesis, Who grew to have more influence over his own subjects/humans than himself. And he seems unable or unwilling to undo this evil - but has to fight a war against it.

I see no other way to look at this than that God willfully accepted Satan's challenge
This is just philosophica reasonings - questions of 'what ifs' - supposing this all happened as believed..

Thoughts?

mormonism believes that there has to be opposition in all things, otherwise our time on earth would be too easy. there needs to be that test. even if god didnt mean for lucifer to be evil, he needed someone to be.. they were his sons, lucifer and jesus, and he needed them to help him decide how to rule the world. lucifer wanted to force everyone to be right so that 100% of the people would be guaranteed to come back, but jesus thought that was wrong and thought we should have free agency (which we somehow willingly give up when we are in a religion).

It's just like the garden of eden, someone needed to eat that apple eventually. if they didnt adam and eve could never have children and they would be immortal.. so eventually they needed to sin, it was part of the plan, and they took the fall for it, sometimes i think its unfair.. but there are many things we dont understand and you just have to get over it

3rd of the angels sided with lucifer on the choice, lucifer lost as the other two thirds went on jesus side. and lucifer was really pissed off. now they are hells angels

[g0pher]

Originally Posted by Mr.GoodStuff

I believe God willingly accepted the challenge and is part of the reason I've been upset with Him lately... I wish He would just go easy on Himself for once, give Himself a break. Maybe eternity is just so long He cracks along the line and just wants to fight for a long time. Who knows? .

It seems folly for a supremely wise God with omnicience and eternal concious to willfully accept a challenge which has so many taxing future consequences (on himself and his subjects/creation). Mayble its like phiegnux has said - God was just - bored?

Originally Posted by Mr.GoodStuff