How important is this war/election?

[HighGrowMan]

This thread is filled with utter hippocracies, America is kicking the shit out of Iraq like a 28 year old man on steroids against a small framed boy with glasses.

The power difference between america and Iraq is unimaginable.

THIS IS NOT A WAR ON PEOPLE

THIS IS A WAR ON HEARTS AND MINDS

I am sorry friends, the real battle front isn't for some oil in Iraq, the real battle is for your soul... And by the sounds of this thread everybody has bit the hook and is getting reeeled in nice and quick.

The bush family financed the concentration camps in Poland; the Natzi's didn't lose WWII, they are in power right now.

America is a heard of sheep getting taken to it's own slaughter.

Enjoy your land of the free,
because this is the fall of rome
as far as I can see

[Rasta_Man]

Your joking -- right?

[JesusC]

Originally Posted by HighGrowMan

This thread is filled with utter hippocracies, America is kicking the shit out of Iraq like a 28 year old man on steroids against a small framed boy with glasses.

The power difference between america and Iraq is unimaginable.

THIS IS NOT A WAR ON PEOPLE

THIS IS A WAR ON HEARTS AND MINDS

I am sorry friends, the real battle front isn't for some oil in Iraq, the real battle is for your soul... And by the sounds of this thread everybody has bit the hook and is getting reeeled in nice and quick.

The bush family financed the concentration camps in Poland; the Natzi's didn't lose WWII, they are in power right now.

America is a heard of sheep getting taken to it's own slaughter.

Enjoy your land of the free,
because this is the fall of rome
as far as I can see

There are many things I dont understand.....this post being one of them.

[dynasty]

We're in a country we have no right to occupy, we are the mediators of waring factions.

Right now the only way to fix Iraq is to get the troops out and set up a stable democracy with a Government that actually passes laws, enforces it's constitution and abides by the will of the people.

Until then we will continue to just be occupying an area where Shiite militias are a larger threat then al-Qaeda, where we try to contain a civil war by being moderator. Nothing will change with the reduction of troops, the problem right now is purely governmental, it's always been that, if we'd immediately put in place a strong democracy after the take down of Saddam we could've gotten out of Iraq and re-assessed the threat of al-Qaeda we face from other countries. Then we could've gone about resolving the entire Iraq fiasco with as little post-involvement as possible, which is the exact opposite of what we've done.

[JesusC]

Originally Posted by dynasty

Right now the only way to fix Iraq is to get the troops out and set up a stable democracy with a Government that actually passes laws

If only it was that easy....

Nothing will change with the reduction of troops, the problem right now is purely governmental

The problem is far beyond governemtnal. How can a government possibly succeed with all of the sectarian violence thats going on? These groups dont care about any sort of "government".

Like it or not, we have crippled Iraq....we cant pull out. If we hand the problem over to Iraqi troops and pull out, that place is going to be worse off than it was before we got there. At least with saddam in power there was a sense of control (to a certain extent) and now the situation is nearly out of control. Dont get me wrong, Im not saying I thought Saddam was a good leader....but everyone knew who was in control of that country. If we leave now it will be completely out of control.

if we'd immediately put in place a strong democracy after the take down of Saddam we could've gotten out of Iraq and re-assessed the threat of al-Qaeda we face from other countries

You didnt honestly think it would be that simple did you?

Changing the complexity of an entire country doesnt take months, it takes years and years and years....even then it doesnt always happen.

[dynasty]

Originally Posted by JesusC

If only it was that easy....

Really? So you think that if Iraq had a solid government that could pass laws and have police/militants enforce them, it would not be fixed?

Talk to some soldiers man. They know what they're talking about coming back from Iraq. Whether we are there or not there will always be violence. Having a stable government that does what is necessary to enforce the laws it must pass is the only sustainable way in the long run Iraq can succeed. The options are keep our troops there, sacrificing american blood for a country that can't get their shit together even though we fucked it up in the first place, doing what we can to maintain peace and stabilize what we can, or, set up a government that has the actual will-power to do these things itself. I understand setting up a government that does its job will take years. In the long run though it is the better option to negotiate a new government rather than kill the terrorists the government does not want to deal with.

The problem is far beyond governemtnal. How can a government possibly succeed with all of the sectarian violence thats going on? These groups dont care about any sort of "government".

Of course they care about government! That is why they do 90% of the things they do. These days it's all politics between the Shiites, Sunni's and Kurds. That's the very reason there is sectarian violence.

Like it or not, we have crippled Iraq....we cant pull out. If we hand the problem over to Iraqi troops and pull out, that place is going to be worse off than it was before we got there. At least with saddam in power there was a sense of control (to a certain extent) and now the situation is nearly out of control. Dont get me wrong, Im not saying I thought Saddam was a good leader....but everyone knew who was in control of that country. If we leave now it will be completely out of control.

Hand it over to the Iraqi troops now? Certainly not. We can't rely on troops to do things when the Government that commands them is flawed. Institute a new power structure of government, pass laws, train troops, train police officers and military officials.

What Iraq needs is a government that will thwart potential attacks before they happen, as in foiling terrorist plots and arresting those responsible, etc. I'm not saying I know how to run Iraq, I think at this point it's anyone's guess, we'll be lucky if we fix the problem withing the next 20 years.

If we attacked the problem of government accountability and responsibility and then gradually pulled out the troops as the area improved we would no doubt see success. However there seems to be this idea among many people that if we keep the troops there, let them take however long it may take to even mildly stabilize the area, and then
set up a strong government, we will find success. This may be the case, however it will take years and years, countless lives of both americans and Iraqis.

[JesusC]

Originally Posted by dynasty

Really? So you think that if Iraq had a solid government that could pass laws and have police/militants enforce them, it would not be fixed?

Talk to some soldiers man. They know what they're talking about coming back from Iraq. Whether we are there or not there will always be violence. Having a stable government that does what is necessary to enforce the laws it must pass is the only sustainable way in the long run Iraq can succeed. The options are keep our troops there, sacrificing american blood for a country that can't get their shit together even though we fucked it up in the first place, doing what we can to maintain peace and stabilize what we can, or, set up a government that has the actual will-power to do these things itself. I understand setting up a government that does its job will take years. In the long run though it is the better option to negotiate a new government rather than kill the terrorists the government does not want to deal with.

Okay, so we both agree setting up a stable government will take years.

Your exact quote was "Right now the only way to fix Iraq is to get the troops out and set up a stable democracy with a Government that actually passes laws".

The problem is that you cant fix Iraq "right now".

Not only that, but your idea of what needs to happen "right now" is backwards. We cant remove our troops and expect Iraq to put itself back together (financially, politicly, or in any other way). Obviously we agree that the whole "setting up a stable government" thing is going to take quite sometime, so theres a very good chance we'll have our troops there for quite sometime.

Are you really that surprised that they are having a hard time "getting their shit together"? Come on man, I dont think you fully understand the kind of change those people are going through...especially considering the amount of people who are against that change and the lengths they will go to prevent it.

We went to Iraq and fucked up their world, now we are responsible for the mess we made and the condition its in.....like it or not. We invaded THEIR country.....from the second we dropped that first bomb on Iraqi soil (the infamous "shock and awe") it became our responsibility.

Our leaders have even admitted they didnt fully understand what they were up against prior to invading Iraq, and we are far beyond the days when George Bush declared "mission accomplished".

I just think youre trying to simplify a situation that cant be simplified.

Its easy to sit here and say "we need to do this" and "we need to do that"...but in reality, theres not a lot we can do at this point except.....god I hate to say it....but.....more of the same.

Of course they care about government! That is why they do 90% of the things they do. These days it's all politics between the Shiites, Sunni's and Kurds. That's the very reason there is sectarian violence.

They dont care about "government", they care about madness.