Hate Crimes

smokingjoe68 · #1 (**permalink**) 06-22-2007, 02:27 AM

This may at first come as a little surprising, but hear this out. I'm interested in reasons why hate crimes should involve stiffer penalties then the same crimes, not motivated based on prejudiced. My cousin and I were just discussing and we came to a conclusion that surprised me as I had never considered why they shouldn't.

criminal penalties exist to protect the rights of civilians in communities in attempting to dissuade violations.

civilians that suffer crimes that are not motivated by prejudiced do not suffer less than civilians that suffer prejudicially motivated crimes.

therefore, there is no difference in violation of rights, prejudicially motivated or not.

Liquidtruth · #2 (**permalink**) 06-22-2007, 03:02 AM

Who said logic and reason had anything to do with the law?

I would agree, murder is murder if it is murder.

mngrnsmokinkng1 · #3 (**permalink**) 06-22-2007, 03:21 AM

good point sj, hate crime is just a name. murder is a murder. when is hate not involved with a murder. just another term the government likes to come up with like military intelligence. it makes no sense at all. criminals should be treated equally wether they are racist or just plain psycho. IMO anyways. I appoligise in advance if my opinions offend anyone.

cannabis · #4 (**permalink**) 06-22-2007, 04:10 AM

Smoking Joe I'm glad you're back and creating threads that ask questions like these and have nothing to do with arguing religion. that's all that's been popping up lately and I get sick of defending Christianity...

As to the OP I agree
Sure the acts of the crime is more wrong that one not being influenced by prejudice. But that's not exactly a reason why it should be more punished. it in a way just further contributes to the separation of races and people.

mrblonde77 · #5 (**permalink**) 06-22-2007, 04:57 AM

I'm not exactly sure which side of the fence I stand on this issue, but I can see the logic in having stiffer penalties for hate crimes. The goal of the law is to keep the peace and our goal as society should be to all live together and get along. Crimes motivated by something so unimportant as a race are an extreme danger to society. For illogical reasons, some people think one race is superior and thus treat other races with hate. Race shouldn't be a factor for anything. It simply doesn't matter. BRacism is an extreme detriment to society and has unbelievable power to provide motivation against another race for no good reason. The extra penalties aren't for the extra harm cuased to the victim, it's for the fact that racism itself could be considered a crime.

smokingjoe68 · #6 (**permalink**) 06-22-2007, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrblonde77

I'm not exactly sure which side of the fence I stand on this issue, but I can see the logic in having stiffer penalties for hate crimes. The goal of the law is to keep the peace and our goal as society should be to all live together and get along. Crimes motivated by something so unimportant as a race are an extreme danger to society. For illogical reasons, some people think one race is superior and thus treat other races with hate. Race shouldn't be a factor for anything. It simply doesn't matter. BRacism is an extreme detriment to society and has unbelievable power to provide motivation against another race for no good reason. The extra penalties aren't for the extra harm cuased to the victim, it's for the fact that racism itself could be considered a crime.

I agree that racism is a crime. I can't, however follow your logic without your reasons stated more clearly, please forgive my simple nature. A prejudiced act should hold a charge of it's own in addition to another crime if one is committed. Isn't our system, the way it is, prejudiced against the offended that aren't violated based on their race or other legal difference? It is imo influencing an attitude of inequality. Please don't misunderstand, I'm about as far from racist as anyone you'll ever know. This is my point, the subtle nature of declaring a crime is worse depending on why it is committed is not fair to some suffering the same violation.

TY cannabis. If it is sickening you, something is wrong brother, many will look and not see. It's ok, we don't love them any less for this, it isn't our place to judge but it is necessary that we forgive. peace

chronictoker · #7 (**permalink**) 06-22-2007, 07:09 PM

Yes, I agree. However, if it is deemed that the crime is particularly heinous...then there should be stiffer penalties...if not...then yeah do the crime, do the time.

evidence of racism or hate alone, does not necessarily constitute a stiffer penalty.

Medicine Al · #8 (**permalink**) 06-22-2007, 07:40 PM

If I'm not mistaken, I think that the nature of a crime is often defined by the mindset of the perpetrator, thusly we have murder one, 2nd degree, Negligent manslaughter, all that separates these mortal crimes is the degree of responsibility, right? So what so-called hate crimes are, is when an exeptional degree of personal malice, due to racial, sexual, or religious prejudice, is involved in the pre-meditative process. In other words, when the humanity of the victim is denied existence in the mind of the criminal. In the end, the crime carries the same physical consequence to the actual victim, but hate crimes are not damaging only to their actual victims, are they? Hate crimes are also deemed futher as a crime against society at large...thusly the additional penalty, right? Because we want to DISCOURAGE HIGHLY the commision of these types of offenses. I don't know if it works, but it is the HUMANE response to the lynchings and other racist bullshit that has been tearing holes in the fabric of society, at least here in the USA. There were no hate crimes laws for the punishment of James Earl Ray, for example, it may have been a response to crap like that...

chronictoker · #9 (**permalink**) 06-22-2007, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medicine Al

If I'm not mistaken, I think that the nature of a crime is often defined by the mindset of the perpetrator, thusly we have murder one, 2nd degree, Negligent manslaughter, all that separates these mortal crimes is the degree of responsibility, right? So what so-called hate crimes are, is when an exeptional degree of personal malice, due to racial, sexual, or religious prejudice, is involved in the pre-meditative process. In other words, when the humanity of the victim is denied existence in the mind of the criminal. In the end, the crime carries the same physical consequence to the actual victim, but hate crimes are not damaging only to their actual victims, are they? Hate crimes are also deemed futher as a crime against society at large...thusly the additional penalty, right? Because we want to DISCOURAGE HIGHLY the commision of these types of offenses. I don't know if it works, but it is the HUMANE response to the lynchings and other racist bullshit that has been tearing holes in the fabric of society, at least here in the USA. There were no hate crimes laws for the punishment of James Earl Ray, for example, it may have been a response to crap like that...

No, man. That's the problem...it perpetuates the flow of hate. Stiffer penalties for the same crime + racist attitude = prejudice against racists

Ppl have a right to hold racist beliefs according to the First Amendment of the constitution

Mr.GoodStuff · #10 (**permalink**) 06-22-2007, 09:45 PM

Ya I agree- if someone hurt someone really bad because of predujice I think the extra punishment should come from how bad they were hurt compared if predujice wouldn't have been a factor.

It should be about the crime in other words, I agree. Good thread.

mrblonde77 · #11 (**permalink**) 06-22-2007, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smokingjoe68

I agree that racism is a crime. I can't, however follow your logic without your reasons stated more clearly, please forgive my simple nature. A prejudiced act should hold a charge of it's own in addition to another crime if one is committed. Isn't our system, the way it is, prejudiced against the offended that aren't violated based on their race or other legal difference? It is imo influencing an attitude of inequality. Please don't misunderstand, I'm about as far from racist as anyone you'll ever know. This is my point, the subtle nature of declaring a crime is worse depending on why it is committed is not fair to some suffering the same violation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chronictoker

No, man. That's the problem...it perpetuates the flow of hate. Stiffer penalties for the same crime + racist attitude = prejudice against racists

Ppl have a right to hold racist beliefs according to the First Amendment of the constitution

I don't think calling the system prejudice against racists is the correct terminology. By that arguement, the system is prejudice against premeditated crimes vs. impulse crimes. I suppose you could term it like that, but I don't feel it's very accurate. Basically the government is punishing you extra for being racist, something that is an extreme detriment and danger to society. Laws are supposed to make our society the best it can be, and harsher penalties for hate crimes are only attempting manifest the best society. Whether or not it works is a whole other debate.
And no I don't believe the First Amendment gives you the right to act violently on baseless hate of an entire race.

chronictoker · #12 (**permalink**) 06-22-2007, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrblonde77

I don't think calling the system prejudice against racists is the correct terminology. By that arguement, the system is prejudice against premeditated crimes vs. impulse crimes. I suppose you could term it like that, but I don't feel it's very accurate. Basically the government is punishing you extra for being racist, something that is an extreme detriment and danger to society. Laws are supposed to make our society the best it can be, and harsher penalties for hate crimes are only attempting manifest the best society. Whether or not it works is a whole other debate.
And no I don't believe the First Amendment gives you the right to act violently on baseless hate of an entire race.

And it is...I don't consider premeditated crimes to be any worse. For the same reason. It's judging someone not by what they do, but how they think.

Impulsive crimes are not any better...they are simply more accepted by society...

And that's not justice.

Mr.GoodStuff · #13 (**permalink**) 06-22-2007, 10:16 PM

^
Like Emerl says-

BAM!

(real deep voice) toast.

mrblonde77 · #14 (**permalink**) 06-22-2007, 11:06 PM

I think the prejudice is because the government understands that human hormones and emotions can get overloaded and take over reason. People who commit these crimes are less a danger to society as those who spend time premeditating it with ill intentions for long periods of time. Those are the people that are crazy in the head. I'm not sure this arguement makes much sense because I'm stoned but I hope you can figure something out.

chronictoker · #15 (**permalink**) 06-22-2007, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrblonde77

I think the prejudice is because the government understands that human hormones and emotions can get overloaded and take over reason. People who commit these crimes are less a danger to society as those who spend time premeditating it with ill intentions for long periods of time. Those are the people that are crazy in the head. I'm not sure this arguement makes much sense because I'm stoned but I hope you can figure something out.

I would be inclined to agree with you...and the insanity issue is a slippery slope indeed...

However...insanity in itself is not grounds for punishment is it?...

it's circumstantial at best...

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#1 (permalink) 06-22-2007, 02:27 AM
smokingjoe68 Registered MJ User Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: right here Posts: 1,906	Hate Crimes This may at first come as a little surprising, but hear this out. I'm interested in reasons why hate crimes should involve stiffer penalties then the same crimes, not motivated based on prejudiced. My cousin and I were just discussing and we came to a conclusion that surprised me as I had never considered why they shouldn't. criminal penalties exist to protect the rights of civilians in communities in attempting to dissuade violations. civilians that suffer crimes that are not motivated by prejudiced do not suffer less than civilians that suffer prejudicially motivated crimes. therefore, there is no difference in violation of rights, prejudicially motivated or not. __________________

#2 (permalink) 06-22-2007, 03:02 AM
Liquidtruth Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Canada Posts: 4,656 Blog Entries: 1	Who said logic and reason had anything to do with the law? I would agree, murder is murder if it is murder. __________________ Cannabis being illegal is a literal crime against humanity. "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle "No matter what side of the argument you are on, you always find people on your side that you wish were on the other." - Jascha Heifetz

#3 (permalink) 06-22-2007, 03:21 AM
mngrnsmokinkng1 Banned Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 134	good point sj, hate crime is just a name. murder is a murder. when is hate not involved with a murder. just another term the government likes to come up with like military intelligence. it makes no sense at all. criminals should be treated equally wether they are racist or just plain psycho. IMO anyways. I appoligise in advance if my opinions offend anyone.

#4 (permalink) 06-22-2007, 04:10 AM
cannabis THClicious Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Δ 9 Posts: 2,672	Smoking Joe I'm glad you're back and creating threads that ask questions like these and have nothing to do with arguing religion. that's all that's been popping up lately and I get sick of defending Christianity... As to the OP I agree Sure the acts of the crime is more wrong that one not being influenced by prejudice. But that's not exactly a reason why it should be more punished. it in a way just further contributes to the separation of races and people. __________________

#5 (permalink) 06-22-2007, 04:57 AM
mrblonde77 use_linux Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,348	I'm not exactly sure which side of the fence I stand on this issue, but I can see the logic in having stiffer penalties for hate crimes. The goal of the law is to keep the peace and our goal as society should be to all live together and get along. Crimes motivated by something so unimportant as a race are an extreme danger to society. For illogical reasons, some people think one race is superior and thus treat other races with hate. Race shouldn't be a factor for anything. It simply doesn't matter. BRacism is an extreme detriment to society and has unbelievable power to provide motivation against another race for no good reason. The extra penalties aren't for the extra harm cuased to the victim, it's for the fact that racism itself could be considered a crime.

#7 (permalink) 06-22-2007, 07:09 PM
chronictoker the doors of perception Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: California Love Posts: 2,298	Yes, I agree. However, if it is deemed that the crime is particularly heinous...then there should be stiffer penalties...if not...then yeah do the crime, do the time. evidence of racism or hate alone, does not necessarily constitute a stiffer penalty. __________________ "Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere." - Carl Sagan

#8 (permalink) 06-22-2007, 07:40 PM
Medicine Al Anthropomorphologist Join Date: May 2007 Location: Beastbelly Acres Posts: 2,769	If I'm not mistaken, I think that the nature of a crime is often defined by the mindset of the perpetrator, thusly we have murder one, 2nd degree, Negligent manslaughter, all that separates these mortal crimes is the degree of responsibility, right? So what so-called hate crimes are, is when an exeptional degree of personal malice, due to racial, sexual, or religious prejudice, is involved in the pre-meditative process. In other words, when the humanity of the victim is denied existence in the mind of the criminal. In the end, the crime carries the same physical consequence to the actual victim, but hate crimes are not damaging only to their actual victims, are they? Hate crimes are also deemed futher as a crime against society at large...thusly the additional penalty, right? Because we want to DISCOURAGE HIGHLY the commision of these types of offenses. I don't know if it works, but it is the HUMANE response to the lynchings and other racist bullshit that has been tearing holes in the fabric of society, at least here in the USA. There were no hate crimes laws for the punishment of James Earl Ray, for example, it may have been a response to crap like that... __________________ U.H.M.A.P. to the stars...homes...

#10 (permalink) 06-22-2007, 09:45 PM
Mr.GoodStuff Would Love To Get High Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Somewhere between a rock and a hard place- but the food is great, the view is great, and the bed is really soft! Posts: 2,689	Ya I agree- if someone hurt someone really bad because of predujice I think the extra punishment should come from how bad they were hurt compared if predujice wouldn't have been a factor. It should be about the crime in other words, I agree. Good thread. __________________ No distractions- and there is only the truth to see. *Here We Grow Again* Mazar & Blueberry Hydro Grow My Brother's River System

#13 (permalink) 06-22-2007, 10:16 PM
Mr.GoodStuff Would Love To Get High Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Somewhere between a rock and a hard place- but the food is great, the view is great, and the bed is really soft! Posts: 2,689	^ Like Emerl says- BAM! (real deep voice) toast. __________________ No distractions- and there is only the truth to see. *Here We Grow Again* Mazar & Blueberry Hydro Grow My Brother's River System

#14 (permalink) 06-22-2007, 11:06 PM
mrblonde77 use_linux Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,348	I think the prejudice is because the government understands that human hormones and emotions can get overloaded and take over reason. People who commit these crimes are less a danger to society as those who spend time premeditating it with ill intentions for long periods of time. Those are the people that are crazy in the head. I'm not sure this arguement makes much sense because I'm stoned but I hope you can figure something out.

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