How could God exist?

[Easy-Bake]

Originally Posted by Rasta_Man

Yes, you have seemingly been the only other person on this site to come to the same conclusion.

Was that really called for? I was only trying to be informative. I'd give you negative rep for being a total dick if I could.

[Liquidtruth]

Originally Posted by Easy-Bake

No one has yet been able to prove that humans are able to make free choices though.

I would say the onus is on the people claiming we cannot make free choices.

Originally Posted by Easy-Bake

Anyways the problem of evil has been known as a reason against the Christian philosophy. This kind of reasoning may not work for all religions, but it does help to disprove the Christian idea of God, Heaven, and Hell, while also giving insight into free-will as well. The insight into free-will is that, all power is in God, so all our choices are made by God--

What does God being omnipotent have to do with him making our choices? I never understood this argument, it makes little sense to me. I do not see the connection. All power does not equal control, being all powerful does not mean, nor imply, that someone has to exercise these powers at all times over all things.

Originally Posted by Easy-Bake

including evil ones-- meaning God is either not omniscient or is not omnibenevolent. And the very idea of the existence of Satan implies that God is not all-knowing or all-powerful(would've seen Satan's defiance coming).

Going by the Bible, God did indeed know what the devil was planning, and what would happen, long before creation ever got created. Thus, God created evil and allowed the devil to do what he did. Which would seem to imply that it would be a necessary part of life, as in some kind of test. *Shrugs* Who knows though, the Bible is quite holey. It is easy to make up arguments to support most anything you're trying to put forth, in regards to it at any rate.

Originally Posted by Easy-Bake

An interesting note that was brought up in my World Religions class last semester-- some of the stories of the Old Testament might have been adapted from Polytheistic people.

Undoubtedly.

Originally Posted by Easy-Bake

Was that really called for? I was only trying to be informative. I'd give you negative rep for being a total dick if I could.

I am almost 100% certain that Rasta was agreeing with you.

[Thrillfill]

Originally Posted by ganjalover17

Yea i had the same thought before. I think "god" was created by man in order to be able to explain certain shit that we don't know how to explain. So pretty much it goes like this...

Question) Why did this horrible thing happen to me?

Answer) Because god wants you to learn from it...

.....which i think is totally bullshit, why would god make people suffer so much if he can just make them avoid it..?

watever

The human race wants somthing to live for. Some poeple live for there jobs, others religion, People NEED somthing to live for.

[Rasta_Man]

Originally Posted by Easy-Bake

Was that really called for? I was only trying to be informative. I'd give you negative rep for being a total dick if I could.

What?

I am agreeing with you, I have come to the same conclusion previously. I brought it up, but everybody else has tried to validate it theologically, not rationally.

If anything I'm complimenting you on your successful conclusion.

I'm confused

[Liquidtruth]

I am sure I was not trying to use only theology. Pretty damn sure at any rate. Though, the topic at hand was mainly a theological discussion, especially at first.

[Easy-Bake]

Originally Posted by Liquidtruth

I would say the onus is on the people claiming we cannot make free choices.

Well that depends on how you look at it. If the argument is taken with free-will being a special quality, then it should be on people who do believe in free-will to prove it exists, rather than doesn't(see where I'm goin here ).

What does God being omnipotent have to do with him making our choices? I never understood this argument, it makes little sense to me. I do not see the connection. All power does not equal control, being all powerful does not mean, nor imply, that someone has to exercise these powers at all times over all things.

Well free-will would imply that people are able to make choices outside the boundaries of God's control-- therefore he cannot be all-powerful. Choosing not to exercise power... hmm that gets a lot more complicated. I think that, if God were to choose not to exercise power, it would imply some need and therefore an imperfection.

Going by the Bible, God did indeed know what the devil was planning, and what would happen, long before creation ever got created. Thus, God created evil and allowed the devil to do what he did. Which would seem to imply that it would be a necessary part of life, as in some kind of test. *Shrugs* Who knows though, the Bible is quite holey. It is easy to make up arguments to support most anything you're trying to put forth, in regards to it at any rate.

Yeah I have to agree with pretty much everything there. I think the test would possibly be so it would be possible to tell right from wrong, but things are getting so vague now it is becoming speculation that may be supported by much of anything.

Originally Posted by Rasta_man

What?

I am agreeing with you, I have come to the same conclusion previously. I brought it up, but everybody else has tried to validate it theologically, not rationally.

If anything I'm complimenting you on your successful conclusion.

I'm confused

Damnit lol you could have chosen better words. Sorry bout that; but a quick, one sentence post is generally an insult in the online-world. And other people have come to the same conclusion(why this thread exists), which is why I thought it was a smug comment. I just, well yeah, never saw the same kind of reasoning as I typed before.

[whitewarrior]

Everything happens for a reason and a purpose, although we may not understand what they may be, its not for us to understand them--I apply that to what I believe in [God] and leave it at that.

[Rasta_Man]

Originally Posted by Easy-Bake

Damnit lol you could have chosen better words. Sorry bout that; but a quick, one sentence post is generally an insult in the online-world. And other people have come to the same conclusion(why this thread exists), which is why I thought it was a smug comment. I just, well yeah, never saw the same kind of reasoning as I typed before.

Yeah, I brought it up in a thread some time ago, me and liquidtruth debated it for some time, but I resigned because it just keeps going back and fourth without any progress.

And in the end; I don't believe in God. Period. So my particular interpretation of fundamental christian theology is sort of pointless to debate.

[Easy-Bake]

Heh, oddly enough Liquid's sig has a reason right in it for continuing the discussion despite that belief.

[Liquidtruth]

Originally Posted by Easy-Bake

Well that depends on how you look at it. If the argument is taken with free-will being a special quality, then it should be on people who do believe in free-will to prove it exists, rather than doesn't(see where I'm goin here ).

Free will is not a special quality, all life forms (that I know about) have it I would say.

Originally Posted by Easy-Bake

Well free-will would imply that people are able to make choices outside the boundaries of God's control--

Certainly.

Originally Posted by Easy-Bake

therefore he cannot be all-powerful.

Nope, that is an odd logical jump. Again, you're equating power with control. It is like the argument I used (in the thread Rasta mentions) about the US being a nuclear power. They do not have to drop a bomb a minute/hour/day in order for them to be considered a nuclear power. They are a nuclear power because they have the bombs, whether they use them or not is unimportant. Saying that God cannot be omnipotent because of free will, makes absolutely no sense at all. Free will is the ability to say no to God. This does not change the fact that he is all powerful. Free will is a self imposed restriction, not a limit on power. It is also something that he can override at any moment, he does not, because it is a rule he decides to live by. Plus, it would be pretty damn hard to convince people that God is a loving God, while at the same time saying he controls everyone, even the murderers and rapists.

Going by the Bible that is. lol, I feel like I am arguing the differing powers between Gandlaf the Grey and Gandalf the White.

Originally Posted by Easy-Bake

Choosing not to exercise power... hmm that gets a lot more complicated. I think that, if God were to choose not to exercise power, it would imply some need and therefore an imperfection.

Of course, the Bible, as I said before, is pretty holey.

[cannabis]

Originally Posted by Easy-Bake

No one has yet been able to prove that humans are able to make free choices though.

what?

The insight into free-will is that, all power is in God, so all our choices are made by God

Wrong.

Originally Posted by Liquidtruth

What does God being omnipotent have to do with him making our choices? I never understood this argument, it makes little sense to me. I do not see the connection. All power does not equal control, being all powerful does not mean, nor imply, that someone has to exercise these powers at all times over all things.

QFT

Exactly, I've brought it up in other threads...I don't understand that 'argument' either.

Originally Posted by Easy-Bake

Choosing not to exercise power

Exactly choice
What does that have to do with omniscience?

Originally Posted by Easy-Bake

Well free-will would imply that people are able to make choices outside the boundaries of God's control-- therefore he cannot be all-powerful

How?

Easy-Bake It's interesting how you bring up the idea of free-will yet don't apply it to your own logic...



It's also evident you haven't even read the Bible. so why debate Christianity?



“Many have quarreled about religion that never practiced it”

- Benjamin Franklin




How could or couldn't God exist are one in the same question

[mrblonde77]

Originally Posted by cannabis

How could or couldn't God exist are one in the same question

But the default answer is that he doesn't, until someone gives some proof that he does. I can say I have a pet unicorn, but until I show you it, you're going to think I'm cracked out or belong in a mental institution.

[CH3VELLE]

innocent until proven guilty; guilty until proven innocent.

which one makes more sense?

[Liquidtruth]

Originally Posted by CH3VELLE

innocent until proven guilty; guilty until proven innocent.

which one makes more sense?

Then by that logic, unicorns, dragons, odin, osiris, santa, the easter bunny, the tooth fairy, the forgotten realms, dragonlance, every fictional book ever written, are all true until someone can prove otherwise. Since no one can prove otherwise, they must all be factual, eh? *shakes his head*

[cannabis]

^^ Yes by that logic.

Originally Posted by mrblonde77

But the default answer is that he doesn't, until someone gives some proof that he does. I can say I have a pet unicorn, but until I show you it, you're going to think I'm cracked out or belong in a mental institution.

That's not exactly a default answer, there aren't really default answers pertaining to subjects like this. Until you prove 'he' doesn't exist there is still reason to believe God exists.