What If We're Stronger than God?

[Rasta_Man]

for argument's sake, let us invoke the suspension of disbelief.

Say the God of Abraham truly does exist; and he created the world in 6 days, 6000 years ago. He then blew into a fistful of dirty and human kind was created.

I'm sure the majority of us are familiar with the Old Testament and somewhat knowledgable of the New Testament.

What if the growth and expansion of human technology and exploration has reached a point where we rival God's power. Our ability to manipulate nuclear fission, our discovery of anti-matter and celestial events have rivaled that of what we once considered a divine being.

God made a mistake and made us a little too well. He himself was limited in his powers, but our ancient tribal ancestors were naive and thought of him as omnipotent. We now rival his influence and ability of a species and he got scared by what he saw.

What if he saw us as a threat? He then fled to other realms of existence, or another place in space and time. He knew we had the capacity to reject his influence and demand our biological sovereignty, and to take demand of our reality. He was King Louis XVI fleeing France to Austria to dodge the wrath of his angered subjects who had risen up and taken control; demanded to be treated fairly.

What if God is a totally misunderstood pushover?

The only way he was every able to exercise any real control was veiled threats and outrageous claims of a non-existent afterlife? What if he manipulated Christians, Jews and Muslims for thousands of years and only the recent advent of technology in recent centuries have given us the ability to challenge his cruel, obscene and limited authority?

/end suspension of disbelief

Too bad it's all entirely speculation. I've always thought I should try my hand at writing some high-fiction. I could call it "The Holy Bible: Episode 3"

Seriously... who knows? In another couple hundred years, maybe the Vatican will pick it up and accept as truth and will reform their religion around the sacred document. Through the passage of time and the infallibility of institution it will become the truth.

Just a "what if..."

[cannabis]

I've also wondered about this too, but never excessively. If you believe in 'God' you believe that he is virtually incapable of making a mistake like that. It's an interesting thought though, I think a lot of people views would be changed if they found they've been worshiping an inferior being. But then again it's not like it hasn't ever been done before, some people just have the need of bearing some form of a leader in order to feel whole.



"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure"

- Marianne Williamson

[chronictoker]

If God just "created" the world and then stepped back and let things happen as they said during the enlightenment or whatever, then it's possible to believe in the bible, creationism and evolution...

And we would be more powerful on earth bc his presence is not here.

If God is here, like for real here, as in he intervenes in our lives, then we are stronger than him bc we have free will. And he can't seem to affect free will....

Either way...man > God on planet earth.

[dynasty]

i think we'll only be stronger than god like those people in the hitch hiker's guide: when we are capable of completely destroying planets and also having the ability to manufacture new ones.

[stneod]

Why should the creation of an equal being (as that is my take on the matter) be a mistake to god.

We are victims to gods thought.
The things you see around you right now, gods thoughts. God can create, humans can only manipulate.

[cannabis]

Originally Posted by stneod

Why should the creation of an equal being (as that is my take on the matter) be a mistake to god.

Simply because God is perfect, and we are not. If we were proportional to Gods competence that would mean God is not perfect because we are not ourselves. And besides the topic isn't about equality it refers more to comparison. God can create existence and harbor life, we can only breed within our own, under certain limitations.

Originally Posted by stneod

We are victims to gods thought.
The things you see around you right now, gods thoughts. God can create, humans can only manipulate.

Victims? how so?

[Rasta_Man]

Originally Posted by cannabis

Simply because God is perfect, and we are not.

I'm suggesting that it is not true. Go with me on this one; suspension of disbelief.

What if that and all the bible stuff is simply propaganda; influenced be a God much weaker than he perceives himself; akin to the opulent monarchies and empires propagating their "divinity".

He is vain and egotistical, he wants us to worship him after all. He is a control freak and likes to control facets of our lives (the sabbath, ten commandments, etc.). It makes sense if you've read the bible

If we were proportional to Gods competence that would mean God is not perfect because we are not ourselves.

I follow you up until that point. We are ourselves.

God can create existence and harbor life, we can only breed within our own, under certain limitations.

Well first off, who KNOWS that god isn't under any limitations? Looking at the universe from a scientific standpoint; God *is* limited.

But also, who says we cant harbor life and create existence? A man and a woman creating a child seems like a pretty extraordinary production of life. Even yet science can replicate other lifeforms from a wisp of genetic and reproduction material.

And who is to argue that AI is impossible? I still have yet to fully understand the logistics of it, but I understand it's potential. We may very well create genuine life from artificial electrical impulses.

Originally Posted by stneod

Why should the creation of an equal being (as that is my take on the matter) be a mistake to god.

It only would be in retrospect if it was true.

Originally Posted by dynasty

i think we'll only be stronger than god like those people in the hitch hiker's guide: when we are capable of completely destroying planets and also having the ability to manufacture new ones.

I don't see why. Besides, if you ask me, we may very well be capable of this. We just choose not to. It may be within our technological grasp. We are capable of destroying our planet and equally perspectively capable of terraforming mars.

I admittedly have reading Hitchhiker's Guide, so I'm not fully sure what you're talking about.

Originally Posted by cannabis

if you believe in 'God' you believe that he is virtually incapable of making a mistake like that

Says who? There are very obviously no barriers or confinements in the realm of "belief"

[cannabis]

Originally Posted by Rasta_Man

I'm suggesting that it is not true. Go with me on this one; suspension of disbelief.

What if that and all the bible stuff is simply propaganda; influenced be a God much weaker than he perceives himself; akin to the opulent monarchies and empires propagating their "divinity".

well you can't prove whether God is perfect or not, so let's agree to disagree. And I suppose you can consider the bible to be a form of propaganda but not exactly in the sense you're referring to. You could consider all of religion to be propaganda if you disregard faith, which is complicated...

Originally Posted by Rasta_Man

He is vain and egotistical, he wants us to worship him after all. He is a control freak and likes to control facets of our lives (the sabbath, ten commandments, etc.). It makes sense if you've read the bible

Well that's another thing how do you know God is a "he", I believe God is not a specific gender but more of an essence or something related...Anyway I believe God has the right to be egotistical and controlling considering God created humans, would you not want your creations to be grateful that you created them? It just doesn't seem far fetched to me that the creations of a creator should show respect to that individual...

Originally Posted by Rasta_Man

Well first off, who KNOWS that god isn't under any limitations?

I see where you're coming from. No one knows for sure.

Originally Posted by Rasta_Man

Looking at the universe from a scientific standpoint; God *is* limited.

how so?

Originally Posted by Rasta_Man

But also, who says we cant harbor life and create existence? A man and a woman creating a child seems like a pretty extraordinary production of life. Even yet science can replicate other lifeforms from a wisp of genetic and reproduction material.

That's exactly it...we only replicate, and not necessarily create.

Originally Posted by Rasta_Man

And who is to argue that AI is impossible? I still have yet to fully understand the logistics of it, but I understand it's potential. We may very well create genuine life from artificial electrical impulses.

Sure i suppose artificial intelligence is possible, but it's artificial...I feel we can't create life on a scale in which God has already done.

Originally Posted by Rasta_Man

Says who? There are very obviously no barriers or confinements in the realm of "belief"

very true, I guess I'm refering to the ideal monotheistic beliefs of religion.

[Rasta_Man]

Originally Posted by cannabis

well you can't prove whether God is perfect or not, so let's agree to disagree. And I suppose you can consider the bible to be a form of propaganda but not exactly in the sense you're referring to. You could consider all of religion to be propaganda if you disregard faith, which is complicated...

I don't think it is at all. It's totally like the Commissars and communist propaganda of Soviet Russia. Make all the proletariats think that the leader is great and infallible, when he is anything but. It is a system of control.

I am going on the given belief that God is extremely imperfect and not omnipotent. Because in order to believe that, you have to believe his propaganda

Well that's another thing how do you know God is a "he", I believe God is not a specific gender but more of an essence or something related

Well, actually we sort of do know God is a he. When God created human life (in his image), he created Adam. It was only later on that he created Women from Man.

...Anyway I believe God has the right to be egotistical and controlling considering God created humans, would you not want your creations to be grateful that you created them? It just doesn't seem far fetched to me that the creations of a creator should show respect to that individual...

Well exactly, thats appealing to his large ego. He wouldn't us rather be happy? to have a cosmic purpose? Would he rather us focus on the growth and development of our species politically, technologically, and socially? No, he'd rather we suck off his ego every sabbath.

Seems like the actions of a very insecure and inadequate person to me.

I see where you're coming from. No one knows for sure.

And that's my point

how so?

He is limited in the capacity, that I have yet to see creations which don't adhere to the law of physics. The universal gravitation equation works, and so does the universal wave equation. He is limited in the capacity that he cannot create anything in violation of those laws. Or as we have yet to see.

You could argue he was the one who created those physical boundaries of creation, but he is still limited by them.

That's exactly it...we only replicate, and not necessarily create.

Well I have yet to see proof that god created either.

As far as I'm concerned we're the product of matter, time and fundamental physical laws. If you ask me, we have more of a capacity to create life that god does.

Replication is creation to me. It's more of a philosophical divide. Do you see yourself a simply a continuation of the DNA and memes of your original ancestor (Adam and Eve, I suppose) from 6000 years ago, or are you a unique individual?

I'm playing devil's advocate here, so my own personal belief somewhat skews this argument.

Sure i suppose artificial intelligence is possible, but it's artificial...I feel we can't create life on a scale in which God has already done.

Why not? It only seems artificial to use, because we are conditioned in our capacity to recognize biological intelligence.

If we could replicate every single neuron and electrical impulse in a brain, and compact that into a silicon CPU; why is that still artificial? Does it not function the same way? Does it not produce the same result? Does that intelligence have the illusion of free will?

What if we give these intelligences an algorithm to take the individual characters of two pairs and to create a third intelligence with a combination of both; boom, you have sexual reproduction. Whos to say that we cannot populate an entire race of genetically linked, communication competent intelligence computers?

The only difference would be is that their neural connectors are homogeneous alloys and non-metals, whereas ours is biological.

And who knows, maybe with the prevailance of nanorobotics, these computers would be able to 'grow' and learn, to regularly increase their understanding, their processing power and perception of the physical world around them.

We may very well be able to create life on a scale that God couldn't even begin to match.

Talk to Skywalker, he can articulate the specifics of this much better than I can.

[Livingalife]

Someone was drugged up to think of this. Nonsense, he created earth, the stars and universe. Nonetheless all the creatures and us. The devil wanted to be God and he got kicked out. He also claimed that God's judgment was wrong and took 1/3 of the angels with him. So I guess we'd all go to hell if we were smarter than him. Hey he's immortal, were mortal. We can't change that

[Rasta_Man]

Originally Posted by Livingalife

Someone was drugged up to think of this.

Everybody on this site is "drugged up"

My argument is totally valid.

Nonsense, he created earth, the stars and universe.Nonetheless all the creatures and us. The devil wanted to be God and he got kicked out. He also claimed that God's judgment was wrong and took 1/3 of the angels with him. So I guess we'd all go to hell if we were smarter than him. Hey he's immortal, were mortal. We can't change that

Prove it.

Maybe he's just a sham, he stumbled upon earth and created humans. He just lies to his little creations and tells them he is responsible for all the good and nice things in the world. When in reality he is child-like in his ideas, selfish, greedy and self-concerned.

He lies to us because he wants us to adore and love him, when in reality we've thrived beyond his expectation, beyond his control.

[stneod]

Originally Posted by stneod

Why should the creation of an equal being (as that is my take on the matter) be a mistake to god.

We are victims to gods thought.
The things you see around you right now, gods thoughts. God can create, humans can only manipulate.

We victims to gods thought in that the world we live in is dictated by god. (Assuming there is a god of course)

Consider this, what if our very existence is proof of gods superiority, god has the ability to create free will.

[stneod]

Originally Posted by Rasta_Man

Everybody on this site is "drugged up"

My argument is totally valid.




Prove it.

Maybe he's just a sham, he stumbled upon earth and created humans. He just lies to his little creations and tells them he is responsible for all the good and nice things in the world. When in reality he is child-like in his ideas, selfish, greedy and self-concerned.

He lies to us because he wants us to adore and love him, when in reality we've thrived beyond his expectation, beyond his control.

I think our equality would only make it easier for us to love and be loved by god.

[Rasta_Man]

Originally Posted by stneod

I think our equality would only make it easier for us to love and be loved by god.

equality has no yielded love for the rest of human civilization, why would it for god?

[PrimaryLotus]

This does make some sort of twisted sense. It would explain the difference in the message of the two Testaments. Ever notice all the fire and brimstone of the OT, and then be mystified at the thought of forgiveness in the NT? Maybe that was God's way of trying to change us into a domesticated species, like some animal.