What If We're Stronger than God?

[What'sThatSmell]

Originally Posted by stneod

The things you see around you right now, gods thoughts. God can create, humans can only manipulate.

Humans can't create?
I guess it depends on how skewed of a definition of create you mean.

[cannabis]

Originally Posted by Rasta_Man

I don't think it is at all. It's totally like the Commissars and communist propaganda of Soviet Russia. Make all the proletariats think that the leader is great and infallible, when he is anything but. It is a system of control.

Well as humans we are all equal, God is not human. And faith is not a system of control.

Originally Posted by Rasta_Man

I am going on the given belief that God is extremely imperfect and not omnipotent. Because in order to believe that, you have to believe his propaganda perseverance

yes, you have belief...as do I.

Originally Posted by Rasta_Man

Well, actually we sort of do know God is a he. When God created human life (in his image), he created Adam. It was only later on that he created Women from Man.

I fail to see how God creating a man first proves him to be man as well.

Originally Posted by Rasta_Man

Well exactly, thats appealing to his large ego. He wouldn't us rather be happy? to have a cosmic purpose? Would he rather us focus on the growth and development of our species politically, technologically, and socially? No, he'd rather we suck off his ego every sabbath.

Seems like the actions of a very insecure and inadequate person to me.

how so? an insecure person would most likely interfere. What would God benefit from by intimidating us into believing he is superior? And how do you all that isn't our purpose?

Originally Posted by Rasta_Man

And that's my point

which also proves that you do not know if God has limitations.

Originally Posted by Rasta_Man

He is limited in the capacity, that I have yet to see creations which don't adhere to the law of physics. The universal gravitation equation works, and so does the universal wave equation. He is limited in the capacity that he cannot create anything in violation of those laws. Or as we have yet to see.

exactly 'as we have yet to see', what do we really know about the universe other than what we have experienced?

Originally Posted by Rasta_Man

You could argue he was the one who created those physical boundaries of creation, but he is still limited by them.

Which is the argument I was going to make if someone created gravity they should have the power to oppose it.

Originally Posted by Rasta_Man

Well I have yet to see proof that god created either.

As far as I'm concerned we're the product of matter, time and fundamental physical laws. If you ask me, we have more of a capacity to create life that god does.

Well of coarse there is no proof of God existing at all...If we are a 'product' how would we have more of a capacity than the producer?

Originally Posted by Rasta_Man

Replication is creation to me. It's more of a philosophical divide. Do you see yourself a simply a continuation of the DNA and memes of your original ancestor (Adam and Eve, I suppose) from 6000 years ago, or are you a unique individual?

The way I see it replication is more of a duplication and reproduction. creation is like inventing with intention and imaginative effort.

Originally Posted by Rasta_Man

What if we give these intelligences an algorithm to take the individual characters of two pairs and to create a third intelligence with a combination of both; boom, you have sexual reproduction. Whos to say that we cannot populate an entire race of genetically linked, communication competent intelligence computers?

The only difference would be is that their neural connectors are homogeneous alloys and non-metals, whereas ours is biological.

And who knows, maybe with the prevailance of nanorobotics, these computers would be able to 'grow' and learn, to regularly increase their understanding, their processing power and perception of the physical world around them.

We may very well be able to create life on a scale that God couldn't even begin to match.

A lot of what ifs, maybes, and may's...you see we only have capabilities and expectations. Our imperfection is what makes us human, and ultimately is what separates us from God.

Originally Posted by PrimaryLotus

This does make some sort of twisted sense. It would explain the difference in the message of the two Testaments. Ever notice all the fire and brimstone of the OT, and then be mystified at the thought of forgiveness in the NT? Maybe that was God's way of trying to change us into a domesticated species, like some animal.

If God had intentions of us being a more domestic species God wouldn't have given us the intelligence and perseverance we possess.

[Rasta_Man]

Originally Posted by cannabis

Well as humans we are all equal, God is not human. And faith is not a system of control.

You seem oh so sure of that

yes, you have belief...as do I.

I don't actually believe this nonsense, devil's advocate.

I fail to see how God creating a man first proves him to be man as well.

God created man in his image. If God was a female, than Adam would've been Eve. Not to mention all the masculine pronouns. Anyways, I don't care, let's say for the sake of argument that he is androgynous.

how so? an insecure person would most likely interfere. What would God benefit from by intimidating us into believing he is superior? And how do you all that isn't our purpose?

Hmm no. And the argument proposes that perhaps he did interfere at one time, be he has since left.

I use the same question to propose this; what would God benefit from creating us to begin with? Why bother?

which also proves that you do not know if God has limitations.

and THAT is the point. That is why my valid is and will remain entirely as valid as your. Because I require no reasoning or logic in my belief.

exactly 'as we have yet to see', what do we really know about the universe other than what we have experienced?

Well the challenge is there, god can either man up and prove me wrong, or coward out and remain an ambiguous jerk.

Which is the argument I was going to make if someone created gravity they should have the power to oppose it.

Maybe he didn't created it. Maybe he didn't even create earth. Again; that is propaganda under my belief. God is inferior and just stumble upon a universe already in existence. Genesis is bullshit.

Well of coarse there is no proof of God existing at all...If we are a 'product' how would we have more of a capacity than the producer?

Because we've grown, silly. How do you think you eventually become stronger than your pops?

God created us and gave us too much potential. It's like that episode of TNG when Data engineers the Moriarty character in the Sherlock Holmes holonovel to be more powerful than him and the guy winds up trapping them in the holodeck.

The way I see it replication is more of a duplication and reproduction. creation is like inventing with intention and imaginative effort.

Okay, well for arguments sake, lets say God did not create life. Let's say if arose from self-replicating proteins in a primordial soup on earth several billion years ago. God, is a being of higher influence and decides to manipulate and lie to us. He is an opportunist and decides to take advantage of his good timing.

A lot of what ifs, maybes, and may's...you see we only have capabilities and expectations. Our imperfection is what makes us human, and ultimately is what separates us from God.

That's ALL orthodox christianity is; "A lot of what ifs, maybes, and may's", but they're just written down in a book.

This is my prophecy of my new sect of Christianity

If God had intentions of us being a more domestic species God wouldn't have given us the intelligence and perseverance we possess.

But you only believe that because you buy into his propaganda.

To look at this argument legitimately, you have to suspend your disbelief in all his propaganda. Consider that he may be lying to us; he has given us no evidence to think otherwise!

He is a of very meager power than he has told us, far from omnipotent. Very limited in his abilities and capacity.

He is just lying to you and manipulating you, keeping you from reaching your potential, because he wants to continue to keep us subervient.






The thing you have to realized that I am using the precisely the same fallacies which religion uses and using to argue against them. It can't call me out on them effectively, because then religion has to admit it's own.

[cannabis]

Originally Posted by Rasta_Man

To look at this argument legitimately, you have to suspend your disbelief in all his propaganda. Consider that he may be lying to us; he has given us no evidence to think otherwise!

He is a of very meager power than he has told us, far from omnipotent. Very limited in his abilities and capacity.

He is just lying to you and manipulating you, keeping you from reaching your potential, because he wants to continue to keep us subervient.

The thing you have to realized that I am using the precisely the same fallacies which religion uses and using to argue against them. It can't call me out on them effectively, because then religion has to admit it's own.

Yes there is no evidence to think otherwise but there is also no evidence to believe, which is a way to sum up faith in general. And how it is separate from propaganda.

Your argument can be considered very relevant in the same way mine can be considered not and visa versa. It's not a very legitimate or effective debate at all.

[Rasta_Man]

Originally Posted by cannabis

Yes there is no evidence to think otherwise but there is also no evidence to believe, which is a way to sum up faith in general. And how it is separate from propaganda.

Your argument can be considered very relevant in the same way mine can be considered not and visa versa. It's not a very legitimate or effective debate at all.

and THAT was my point

[skywalker]

god is a wimp.told him to meet me in front of 7-11 last saturday. told him we'd settle our shit then and there.

i waited 2 hours. no show.

punk ass. and if you're reading this, god, this shit ain't over yet. i know where you live.

[Mr.GoodStuff]

Originally Posted by Rasta_Man

for argument's sake, let us invoke the suspension of disbelief.

Say the God of Abraham truly does exist; and he created the world in 6 days, 6000 years ago. He then blew into a fistful of dirty and human kind was created.

I'm sure the majority of us are familiar with the Old Testament and somewhat knowledgable of the New Testament.

What if the growth and expansion of human technology and exploration has reached a point where we rival God's power. Our ability to manipulate nuclear fission, our discovery of anti-matter and celestial events have rivaled that of what we once considered a divine being.

God made a mistake and made us a little too well. He himself was limited in his powers, but our ancient tribal ancestors were naive and thought of him as omnipotent. We now rival his influence and ability of a species and he got scared by what he saw.

What if he saw us as a threat? He then fled to other realms of existence, or another place in space and time. He knew we had the capacity to reject his influence and demand our biological sovereignty, and to take demand of our reality. He was King Louis XVI fleeing France to Austria to dodge the wrath of his angered subjects who had risen up and taken control; demanded to be treated fairly.

What if God is a totally misunderstood pushover?

The only way he was every able to exercise any real control was veiled threats and outrageous claims of a non-existent afterlife? What if he manipulated Christians, Jews and Muslims for thousands of years and only the recent advent of technology in recent centuries have given us the ability to challenge his cruel, obscene and limited authority?

/end suspension of disbelief

Too bad it's all entirely speculation. I've always thought I should try my hand at writing some high-fiction. I could call it "The Holy Bible: Episode 3"

Seriously... who knows? In another couple hundred years, maybe the Vatican will pick it up and accept as truth and will reform their religion around the sacred document. Through the passage of time and the infallibility of institution it will become the truth.

Just a "what if..."

To measure power there must be absolutes. Chance is only a slave to possibility. There is no chance without the possibility already existing.

The limit of our power is the limit of power in general. We ARE the power. We are made up of the same exact energy that everything else is.

We are not seperate from God, we only believe we are. It's just God hiding from the fact he is alone and his power is nothing without anyone to witness it. In fact, HE is nothing without us. He is a lot like zero. Infinite, yet nobody can measure it.

God a pushover? God is a very lonely and bored energy field that we are a part of. He could be a pushover if you wanted, but he can also be the most insane amount of power you could fathom. His nature formed duality in order to make a distinction in all possibilities. A being that is all encompassing is alone, a being that is all possibilities is not a specific thing. No way to experience chance without a seperation of possibilities. This spawned the creation of time, in order to once again see a separation- from one event to the next.

Imagine realizing that you could have whatever you wanted but it wouldn't ever be real in the end. Imagine having the greatest most amazing gift and you can't give it away. All he has is His story. Whether it shows weakness or strength to you- you are mearly observing possibility and nothing more. God just is.

Whether you want to feel he created the world or just simply IS the world, there is an energy that is all-encompassing. It's the reason for the relativity, you witness the same laws of physics everywhere in the universe because it's all the same energy field.

Because it is all-encompassing it is NOT weak. Only possibility.

To say we are more powerful than that which dictated who we are... Would be like having a PS3 that became more powerful than it was orignally built on it's own. There is a bar and it is nothing more than possibility; the stronger we become the stronger we make ourselves. If you built the PS3 with the ability to become faster it would still have a limit that is dictated by the hardware used.

In other words, we set the bar. God is possibility, we are the distinction.

God is all the possible paths, we are the course that is taken.

God only had one thing to give- himself and his own power. Think it's ironic that we woke up with the power to change our life and create anything we want? Think it's ironic we would question why we are here??? If there is no reason, there is no answer. Only possibility.

[Maitereya]

im confused if we are talking about real god or fake god.

[Rasta_Man]

Originally Posted by Mr.GoodStuff

To measure power there must be absolutes. Chance is only a slave to possibility. There is no chance without the possibility already existing.

The limit of our power is the limit of power in general. We ARE the power. We are made up of the same exact energy that everything else is.

We are not seperate from God, we only believe we are. It's just God hiding from the fact he is alone and his power is nothing without anyone to witness it. In fact, HE is nothing without us. He is a lot like zero. Infinite, yet nobody can measure it.

God a pushover? God is a very lonely and bored energy field that we are a part of. He could be a pushover if you wanted, but he can also be the most insane amount of power you could fathom. His nature formed duality in order to make a distinction in all possibilities. A being that is all encompassing is alone, a being that is all possibilities is not a specific thing. No way to experience chance without a seperation of possibilities. This spawned the creation of time, in order to once again see a separation- from one event to the next.

Imagine realizing that you could have whatever you wanted but it wouldn't ever be real in the end. Imagine having the greatest most amazing gift and you can't give it away. All he has is His story. Whether it shows weakness or strength to you- you are mearly observing possibility and nothing more. God just is.

Whether you want to feel he created the world or just simply IS the world, there is an energy that is all-encompassing. It's the reason for the relativity, you witness the same laws of physics everywhere in the universe because it's all the same energy field.

Because it is all-encompassing it is NOT weak. Only possibility.

To say we are more powerful than that which dictated who we are... Would be like having a PS3 that became more powerful than it was orignally built on it's own. There is a bar and it is nothing more than possibility; the stronger we become the stronger we make ourselves. If you built the PS3 with the ability to become faster it would still have a limit that is dictated by the hardware used.

In other words, we set the bar. God is possibility, we are the distinction.

God is all the possible paths, we are the course that is taken.

God only had one thing to give- himself and his own power. Think it's ironic that we woke up with the power to change our life and create anything we want? Think it's ironic we would question why we are here??? If there is no reason, there is no answer. Only possibility.

You're talking about a Gaia-like God

I'm talking about the literal God of Abraham.

Otherwise; sure, I can understand your conclusion. I don't refer to it as 'God', but I know what you speak of.

[Mr.GoodStuff]

Ah, well the God of Abraham is wicked powerful- minus that rest on the 7th day thing. Must have been beat from all the creation, running low on all-power I guess. Needed kick back and relax for 24 hours LOL

The humanistic or kingly traits that the Bible shows about God is a sign of it being written by people for people and not by God for people in my opinion.

I believe in the Bible, but not that it is a true story. The story of Jesus I believe to be true, but most of everything is a parable to me.

I am glad that you know what I'm talking about though- this is the one place I've been that people understand me and can relate in some way regarding spirituality.

Definitely an interesting question though- because the God of Abraham always had trouble controlling us. That doesn't make much sense if God is all-powerful, he could snap his fingers and make us follow him then.

I drew the conclusion that he DIDN'T want to control us at all- rather watch us and wait to see what we did. That way, no matter what happens he is in control (wanting to experience a chance situation and witness freedom of expression) and all-power stands true.

[Maitereya]

what if satan was the real angel and god is the demon. and satan lost a battle now god is ruling the universe with an iron fist.

i told a hard core christian that and he said, "thats the only true blasphmey according to the bible"

[Mr.GoodStuff]

Lucifer is one of the most misunderstood beings ever.

He IS an angel, part of the personality of the Almighty.

In fact, it was through his sacrifice AND Jesus' that we even have a story at all.

Lucifer can not help but be the way he is. He was necesarry for the seperation of egos (or a distinction to be made) he is nothing more than the absolute of egoism.

Jesus is the absolute of altruism.

Together, they made our unique personality were we had a choice between the two possible. They agreed to being that way, so we could achieve the goal of creation.

I don't like the guy at all because he always wants to control myself and others around me though me. But he's there, and completely necesarry or he wouldn't be.

[dynasty]

Originally Posted by Maitereya

im confused if we are talking about real god or fake god.

the fake real god.

[mrblonde77]

Originally Posted by Maitereya

im confused if we are talking about real god or fake god.

I'm also now confused. There's a real god and a fake god? Who decided which one is real and what ones are fake?

[cannabis]

Originally Posted by Mr.GoodStuff

To measure power there must be absolutes. Chance is only a slave to possibility. There is no chance without the possibility already existing.

Yes but there can be a fine line between possible and impossible. Chance is an unknown and unpredictable element in happenings that seems to have no assignable cause.

Originally Posted by Mr.GoodStuff

We are made up of the same exact energy that everything else is.

proof?

Originally Posted by Mr.GoodStuff

We are not seperate from God, we only believe we are. It's just God hiding from the fact he is alone and his power is nothing without anyone to witness it. In fact, HE is nothing without us. He is a lot like zero. Infinite, yet nobody can measure it.

God a pushover? God is a very lonely and bored energy field that we are a part of. He could be a pushover if you wanted, but he can also be the most insane amount of power you could fathom. His nature formed duality in order to make a distinction in all possibilities. A being that is all encompassing is alone, a being that is all possibilities is not a specific thing. No way to experience chance without a seperation of possibilities. This spawned the creation of time, in order to once again see a separation- from one event to the next.

we have very different views on what God is.

Originally Posted by Mr.GoodStuff

Whether you want to feel he created the world or just simply IS the world, there is an energy that is all-encompassing. It's the reason for the relativity, you witness the same laws of physics everywhere in the universe because it's all the same energy field.

relativity is a theory, how do we know what exists everywhere in the universe? the answer is we don't, and most likely never will.

Originally Posted by Mr.GoodStuff

Ah, well the God of Abraham is wicked powerful- minus that rest on the 7th day thing. Must have been beat from all the creation, running low on all-power I guess. Needed kick back and relax for 24 hours LOL .

The Bible doesn't say the 'day' its referring to is 24 hours.

Originally Posted by Mr.GoodStuff

The humanistic or kingly traits that the Bible shows about God is a sign of it being written by people for people and not by God for people in my opinion..

I agree completely.

Originally Posted by Mr.GoodStuff

Definitely an interesting question though- because the God of Abraham always had trouble controlling us..

how so?

Originally Posted by Mr.GoodStuff

I drew the conclusion that he DIDN'T want to control us at all- rather watch us and wait to see what we did. That way, no matter what happens he is in control (wanting to experience a chance situation and witness freedom of expression) and all-power stands true.

In my opinion, that can be a very valid conclusion.